107 réponses à ce sujet

[fantasypisces]

Some of you may disagree, but let me make my point.

My first character was an archer, being brand new to the game I made many mistakes (wrong stat points, wrong talents)... overall, I just built my archer very badly.

After reading many threads on here I decided to give it another go, and I am very unimpressed.
The damage is woefully bad. With 30 dex, 26 cunning and lethality (plus bonuses from gear), each shot only hits for 27 damage. Even with the sustainable active that increases speed, my damage is worse than every other character I have done.

Granted I am still at low levels, so there is still development to be done on the character, but even if he improves later he still would not be as good a spec choice as others later in the game.

A slow attack speed with low damage, poisons don't help, low crit chance, low crit damage, higher miss rate (my miss rate right now is 20%, other characters I have done (2h warrior, dw warrior, dw rogue, sword/board tank) there hit miss rate at the same level was never higher than 10%).

I usually make Leliana an archer, and she becomes the perfect support character through her ranger pet and bardic songs. But it seems this is not a good path for the main PC to be, even if I built him along the lines as a support character.

Here is an example:
At level 8 my 2h warrior went to redcliffe with Sten, Morrigan, and Dog. Morrigan had haste so it helped a lot. After doing everything I could to increase morale, the defense was obscenely easy on normal mode. I never once had to throw a heal, all the villagers (and helpers - berwick, dwynne, etc) survived.

At level 9 my DW warrior went to redcliffe with Alistair, Morrigan, and Archer leliana. Same thing as above, everyone suvived, never had to throw a heal.

Now I got with my archer at level 8. On normal mode, all the morale upgrades. Had my PC Archer, Morrigan, Dog, and Shale in stoneheart to taunt everything. Took Morrigan and Dog for the aoe stuns because it worked really well for my 2h character. Anyway:
-Berwick dies right in the beginning along with both thungs from Dwynne. Go down to the docks and Murdock, lloyd, and three milia died. I was constantly having to heal and drink poultices just for my group to survive. I thought maybe I played it wrong, so did it again. Same exact outcome except one less milita died.
After thinking it over I realized it was because of my Archer PC. He had to constantly move around so his shots weren't blocked. His damage was really low. His stuns and roots were constantly broken (because they always break right when the mob takes damage)... so essentially he was just plinking everything, while shale was trying to tank everything. Dog was running around doing a bunch of damage, stunning, and Morrigan was doing crazy CC/healing.

My companions all performed like pros, they did what they had to do. The reason I lost so many villagers was because my archer could not perform well. But this confused me. Because I had archer leliana in another playthrough and she did fine. But the reason is because my DW warrior was running around killing everything, off tanking, taking a beating and giving one back in turn.

So maybe I am doing something wrong? But so far, archery is really really bad. Maybe I will try that archery mod.

sorry, it was sort of a rant thread, but would appreciate advice as well.

[Shorinjikan]

I was impressed with it too.

26 as your prime dmg stat is rather low. Compare it to the str score of your fighters.

Modifié par Shorinjikan, 27 décembre 2009 - 10:30 .

[fantasypisces]

Shorinjikan wrote...

I was impressed with it too.

hmmm?

[Shorinjikan]

26 is very low for your prime dmg stat. Compare that to the str score on the fighters you are competing with.



^awe

[fantasypisces]

Ok, you edited it on me, hehe.

Longbow damage is 50% Dex 50% Str.



So essentially my overall damage score would have been 56 (30 Dex, 26 Cunning) which was much higher than my 38 Str score for fighters....

[Dumbres]

I kinda disagree archer works fine with me.



At redcliff no one died playing on nightmare (Companions: Leliana, Dog, Allistair)

I used alot of scattershot to stun and i can crit op to 925 with arrow slaying so it aint that bad though

[Fleapants]

fantasypisces wrote...

Ok, you edited it on me, hehe.
Longbow damage is 50% Dex 50% Str.

So essentially my overall damage score would have been 56 (30 Dex, 26 Cunning) which was much higher than my 38 Str score for fighters....

It takes the average of your Str/Dex, so with your stats it would be 28.

[fantasypisces]

To Dumbres...
Yes, you went at a much higher level. As I said the archer would increase in viability at higher levels, but when compared to other characters they would still be weaker.

My comparisons were all lvl 8-9, so no scattershot or arrow of slaying.

Modifié par fantasypisces, 27 décembre 2009 - 10:38 .

[fantasypisces]

Fleapants wrote...

fantasypisces wrote...

Ok, you edited it on me, hehe.
Longbow damage is 50% Dex 50% Str.

So essentially my overall damage score would have been 56 (30 Dex, 26 Cunning) which was much higher than my 38 Str score for fighters....

It takes the average of your Str/Dex, so with your stats it would be 28.

So it takes an average, that already makes it weaker than simply pumping a stat (such as str for a warrior). As an archer (with longbows) there is no way to pump a single stat because, as you informed me (thank you <3), you need two stats for damage calculation. But if it took the average, then why not just pump Dex really high? Why does everyone say to take lethality with cunning? If it is averaged, then 100 Dex would be the same as 50 Dex and 50 cunning, as an example.

[jsachun]

I'm using an archer build at the momment, and I had to play a support role till I managed to get Arrow of Slaying & Scattershot Talent. Arrow of Slaying does massive damage, biggest I've seen so far in game "100 to 400" at dex=mid 30s. Scattershot can damage & stun all enemies so your melee fighters can take them out quicker. I tend to give my archer Heavy Armor so that they can take more damage. You can use Rapid Shot talent to increase the speed of attack of your archer. I've been using Crushing prison & Arrow of Slaying Combos on Bosses & it helps in killing them in few seconds. Only trouble is Revenants. I just run in circles & let the revenant chase me while my companions take care of it. I've read (not tried) Stealth & Arrow of Slaying combo also does wonders.

Modifié par jsachun, 27 décembre 2009 - 11:07 .

[Fleapants]

fantasypisces wrote...

Fleapants wrote...

fantasypisces wrote...

Ok, you edited it on me, hehe.
Longbow damage is 50% Dex 50% Str.

So essentially my overall damage score would have been 56 (30 Dex, 26 Cunning) which was much higher than my 38 Str score for fighters....

It takes the average of your Str/Dex, so with your stats it would be 28.

So it takes an average, that already makes it weaker than simply pumping a stat (such as str for a warrior). As an archer (with longbows) there is no way to pump a single stat because, as you informed me (thank you <3), you need two stats for damage calculation. But if it took the average, then why not just pump Dex really high? Why does everyone say to take lethality with cunning? If it is averaged, then 100 Dex would be the same as 50 Dex and 50 cunning, as an example.

Because Cunning increases your rogue skills, increases the power of bard songs and increases armor penetration.
Dex only increases damage + defense, but you need a good chunk of it to take certain talents and to equip the more powerful bows.
If you don't give a hoot about chests and buffing your party (or if you have Lel/Zev in your group) then dump all stats in Dex, but if you want a teamplaying swiss army knife, go the Cun route

[fantasypisces]

So it seems (as I commented in another thread) that the character is woefully bad for 80% of the game, then amazing for 20%. The 20% being once you have scattershot and arrow of slaying and stealth.



Well at least there is something to look forward to.

[Fleapants]

I find low-level archers rather useful for doing shatter combos with Critical Shot or keeping baddies out of combat for a while with Pinning and Shattering shots.

The latter one has a knockback effect that isn't mentioned in the tooltip blurb.

[RobotXYZ]

Dex increases attack too..

[fantasypisces]

I do use shattering (for the knockback) whenever it is up. But for critical (outside of shatter) it is just more beneficial to fire two shots (which takes the same amount of time) and get the same damage.



My damage modifier (you say 28) is low. But I have only put points into Dex and Cunning. My warrior only put points into Str and has a 38 str modifier. That right there raises a red-flag for me.

[fantasypisces]

RobotXYZ wrote...

Dex increases attack too..

I understand this. My Dex is 30 and I have a 20% miss chance.
My 2h warrior has 13 Dex and with Haste (which incurs a to hit penalty) has a 10% miss chance.
Once again another red-flag.

Gah, I need to stop ranting, my apologies, it just got under my skin.

[Xantor_Stromgate]

There have been a few posts about archery. Honestly, I've never had the dps low at all ... My archers always whack out about 30-55 per normal hit. I boost them with gear that increases thier critical chance and damage and we're talkin' 45-75 per shank. I don't know ... maybe you're just doing it wrong ...

[swk3000]

If you build your character right, you can get Arrow of Slaying at Level 5 (just completed the Joining). Here's how:



Character Creation: Human Noble Rogue. +5 Dexterity, Improved Combat Training, Pinning Shot, Deft Hands

Level 2: +3 Dexterity, Crippling Shot

Level 3: +3 Dexterity, Expert Combat Training, Critical Shot

Level 4: +3 Dexterity, Improved Tools

Level 5: +1 Dexterity, +3 Cunning, Master Combat Training, Arrow of Slaying, Melee Archer



That's just a sample build, of course, but it gives you some lockpicking abilities, gets you Arrow of Slaying as soon as possible, and starts out on building your Cunning score for when you pick up Lethality (your next three Level Ups should take Below the Belt, Deadly Strike, and Lethality). So you can actually go through most of the game with Arrow of Slaying, instead of the 20% you were going for. From there, you can start looking to get Stealth if you want it, and filling out your other Archer talents.

[fantasypisces]

Xantor_Stromgate wrote...

There have been a few posts about archery. Honestly, I've never had the dps low at all ... My archers always whack out about 30-55 per normal hit. I boost them with gear that increases thier critical chance and damage and we're talkin' 45-75 per shank. I don't know ... maybe you're just doing it wrong ...

Which was half the reason for this post, to find out what I am doing wrong... but so far all I have come up with is that I didn't take scattershot and arrow of slaying immedietly.

What level were you when you were doing the 30-55 per hit and the 45-75 per hit, and how was the damage of your companions compared to that?

[fantasypisces]

Just got arrow of slaying, use it and 2/3rds of my stamina is gone.

First time on a mage it hit for 80... I then crit shot her for 50, then had to fire two more arrows into her before she died.

Second time I used it, it was resisted by a lieutenant mage. I reloaded, and turned the difficulty down to easy, and it hit her for 80 again.



I know arrow of slaying can do high damage (leliana has hit for 600 with it on the archdemon), but the fact that it is only one of two abilities that make a character good is not enough to justify calling it a good class.

Heck, as another counter. My 2h warrior who is running around on hard difficulty just banged a lieteunant hurlock alpha for 80 using mighty blow. Which drains much less stamina and has a much shorter cooldown. Plus it was 80 damage on a heavily armored mob, compared to 80 damage on a mage. Just saying.

[catofnine]

Just curious:

1. Edit: misread.  Your cunning:dex is a bit low.  Take as much dex as you need for talent tiers while you level.  Rest should go into cunning.

2. Are you running around with rapid shot? I believe it takes away your crits.

Some food for thought:
I ran Leliana about 20ish str, enough dex to take high end archer skills/use Marjolaine's recurve, and dumped the rest in cunning due to lethality. Granted with that build she missed a lot, but when I got archery master she was hitting like a truck with AoS and regular/crit arrows around 50-75.

Modifié par catofnine, 28 décembre 2009 - 12:25 .

[Marso40]

I've found archery at lower levels for a single character to be pretty tame, but improve your bows as you can and get all four party members standing in a line (with melee archer and rapid aim) and turn them loose on the same target, and suddenly you are a force to be reckoned with, especially during the battles like Redcliffe. Hell, most of the militia is still standing in both places at the end after I let the gray geese fly...



Even against some of the harder bosses, sniping them with good bows and dweomered arrows wears them down quickly. The High Dragon would agree if I hadn't already pincushioned it to death and plundered it's lordly hoard...

[fantasypisces]

catofnine wrote...

Just curious:

1. Edit: misread.  Your cunning:dex is a bit low.  Take as much dex as you need for talent tiers while you level.  Rest should go into cunning.

2. Are you running around with rapid shot? I believe it takes away your crits.

Some food for thought:
I ran Leliana about 20ish str, enough dex to take high end archer skills/use Marjolaine's recurve, and dumped the rest in cunning due to lethality. Granted with that build she missed a lot, but when I got archery master she was hitting like a truck with AoS and regular/crit arrows around 50-75.

Yeah I got my Dex up to 30 for talents then stopped, will only raise it again when I need to for a new bow. But yes, otherwise, if I have not put anything in Dex, then it has all gone into cunning. So at level 8-9 my damage is 27 per arrow (average), with (as said above) 30 Dex and 26 cunning at level 8, (29 cunning when I leveled to nine).

So everyone is telling me my damage is low for my level. They then say to only up Dex and Cunning, which is all I have done. Sooo, because it is still low, am I maybe bugged? The bow I am using is 7.2 damage, best I have found so far for the level.

[sinosleep]

I just finished a rogue archer playthrough last night and had a blast. As has already been written, you can beeline to arrow of slaying and get it before you're even done in lothering. A lot of archer damage is gear dependant, but if you manage your money well you can get everything you need after completing 2 major plot lines and part of a 3rd (I did redcliffe, sacred ashes, and the 1st two parts of Orzammar). I know I had Felon's coat, silverhammer's tackmasters, red jenny's seekers, the long sight, keys to the city, festival ring, and was using the farsong bow by level 15. Regular hits did around 45 damage, but I crit early and often for somewhere in the range of 70-80. Arrow of slaying varies from 250-500. At level 17 have done 40% of party damage, and had an 81% hitrate.



As for the whole cunning/dex debate, I went with dex for several reasons. From what I gathered from the big archery thread the difference between say a 30 point boost to dex and a 30 point boost to cun was far more beneficial if you put it into the dex. The cun modifier on song of courage is so small that it's easily out done by the attack rating provided by dex (keep in mind I still run the song cause the boost from 40 cunning is still nice) and with a dex build you also don't have to rely on other party member's buffs (which I have ALWAYS loathed doing). The other reason I went with dex is that a lot of people say that an advantage of a cunning build is all the points you save from lock picking and coercion. Well, if you don't put any points into cunning or coersion, even if you put every last point into cunning you ARE going to fail some early persuasion checks that I don't like missing. For instance, everything in lothering and redcliffe if you do those early.



But hey I'm no expert, I'm just relaying the choices I made and why I made them. Like I said, I've had a blast with my current playthrough as a rogue archer leading an all melee party composed of Sten, dog, and Alistair.

[fantasypisces]

You did 45% of damage, that's interesting. My DW warrior was doing 45 damage per swing (and he was DW) and only did 46% of party damage. I ran with Alistair, Leliana, and Morrigan... that sounds weird.



Anyway, I appreciate the help. My archer just seems to be struggling. He is having major difficulties on normal (so I keep switching down to easy) when two previous characters I did on normal with no problem, and my 2h is running through on Hard with few issues.



Maybe I just suck at Archer....