40 réponses à ce sujet

[naughty99]

One aspect of DA2 that I found a bit frustrating was the prevalence of "junk" items that had no use in the game. 

I believe the purpose was to sort of flesh out the environments, but none of these Moth Eaten Scarf type objects had meshes and did not appear in game.

If they must only appear in containers, it would be great if there was some use for them, for example, crafting bandages or some other crafting purpose.

Above all, I very much hope that any books in the game have some text we can read. It was a massive disappointment when we received the Tome of Slumbering Elders as a quest reward from Keeper Marethari, only to find out that it was considered a "junk" item and had no readable text at all. It was a let down because it felt like this was going to be a cool reward with some interesting lore, as Marethari had a special cut scene to give us the book.

These details make a huge difference for some of us. Do you feel these books and miscellaneous items deserve a little more attention in DA3 compared to DA2?

Modifié par naughty99, 27 septembre 2012 - 03:59 .

[Maria Caliban]

Junk items exist so the PC can make some extra cash selling things they know are worthless. It also gets them in the habit of checking their environment so when you do have something important, they don't rush by it.

You bring up a good point though. If any story element tells a player that something is important, some of them will be loathe to part with it.

I still recall Aveline accusing my Lady Hawke of selling her dead husband's shield. I was sort of hurt because I'd made sure to keep the shield in my inventory and later my chest because it felt wrong to part with it.

Which is why I DON'T want junk items to get that extra attention. If they seem important or significant in any way, I'll happily keep them just in case.

I blame adventure games. They taught me that every object you find might be useful later. You never know when a rubber chicken with a pulley in the middle might come in handy!

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 27 septembre 2012 - 04:07 .

[naughty99]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Junk items exist so the PC can make some extra cash selling things they know are worthless. It also gets them in the habit of checking their environment so when you do have something important, they don't rush by it.

How about simply making them at least usable in crafting recipes?

We actually don't really need "junk" items to become wealthy in the game. There is ultimately no point to them, because they don't help to flesh out the clutter in the environments, since you can't ever see them in-game. In fact, in DA2 the devs decided to include diamonds and precious gems in the "junk" category and made them all completely worthless.

Maria Caliban wrote...

You bring up a good point though. If any story element tells a player that something is important, some of them will be loathe to part with it. 

I still recall Aveline accusing my Lady Hawke of selling her dead husband's shield. I was sort of hurt because I'd made sure to keep the shield in my inventory and later my chest because it felt wrong to part with it. 

Which is why I DON'T want junk items to get that extra attention. If they seem important or significant in any way, I'll happily keep them just in case. 

I blame adventure games. They taught me that every object you find might be useful later. You never know when a rubber chicken with a pulley in the middle might come in handy! [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/wizard.png[/smilie]

Wouldn't it have been more enjoyable to have Aveline respond appropriately in a more reactive way, because you didn't sell her dead husband's shield?

Personally, I'm a packrat as well, and I don't quite see what would be wrong with keeping lots of items for the entire game or at least simply having them be useful? Doesn't this all help to make the game world a bit more immersive? 

Is the main problem that you're worried you will run out of storage space?

Modifié par naughty99, 27 septembre 2012 - 04:22 .

[Xerxes52]

Honestly if Bioware keeps junk items useless like they are in DA2, I would suggest they just scrap junk altogether and replace it with its equivalent in coin.

So instead of finding a moth eaten scarf in a barrel that later sells for 10 copper, we'd find 10 copper in the barrel.

[Shadow Fox]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Junk items exist so the PC can make some extra cash selling things they know are worthless. It also gets them in the habit of checking their environment so when you do have something important, they don't rush by it.

You bring up a good point though. If any story element tells a player that something is important, some of them will be loathe to part with it.

I still recall Aveline accusing my Lady Hawke of selling her dead husband's shield. I was sort of hurt because I'd made sure to keep the shield in my inventory and later my chest because it felt wrong to part with it.

Which is why I DON'T want junk items to get that extra attention. If they seem important or significant in any way, I'll happily keep them just in case.

I blame adventure games. They taught me that every object you find might be useful later. You never know when a rubber chicken with a pulley in the middle might come in handy!

Feh Aveline's a ****.

[Chromie]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Junk items exist so the PC can make some extra cash selling things they know are worthless. It also gets them in the habit of checking their environment so when you do have something important, they don't rush by it.

Replace it with money then? It's not like it would change anything.

In Witcher 2, yes Witcher, there is no junk loot because even something as simple as twine is used in crafting. Bioware should adopt a system like that. If you find say twine with enough of it in Witcher 2 we could make cloth and we could use it in crafting gear pretty much all base materials could be combined to make a higher tier crafting material. CDProjekt removed junk loot and made everything useful in some form. Sure you could sell everything off if you want but you could also craft something really early on in Chapter 1,2 or 3 and not have to worry about dying so often. I spent probably more time searching for materials in Dark Mode then I did in Origins and if Bioware really needs to use such cheap ways to get us to notice something then they need to find a better way to get us to listen.

[Icinix]

I actually felt DA2 got it about right - you felt like you were getting stuff, and you knew clearly that you could sell it off...

..except the pantaloons....

..you keep those. Even though they say Junk.....

[snackrat]

If the only thing they're good for is money, can't we just collect money? How many people store pants under rocks, and put their broken caste pins in plant roots?
As for that 'checking the environment'... why does it need to be items? In fact items clog up the inventory and must be sold separately at a later time. Having items instead of straight moolah makes everything LESS appealing, not more.

Modifié par Karsciyin, 27 septembre 2012 - 04:29 .

[whykikyouwhy]

Karsciyin wrote...

As for that 'checking the environment'... why does it need to be items? In fact items clog up the inventory and must be sold separately at a later time. Having items instead of straight moolah makes everything LESS appealing, not more.

While it would be great to find coin on a routine basis, that may seem all too convenient, imo. I like seeing a healthy mix of random items and coin - it has an authentic feel to it, that it would be quite plausible to stumble across both when adventuring. And that if any other traveler or citizen passed by that innocent barrel or pile of rubble, it seems equally feasible that the coin would disappear first, leaving the PC to find the stale biscuit and rusty sword.

And this hearkens somewhat to something Maria Caliban mentioned, but I enjoy stumbling upon the odd junk item. While it may not have any significance in the game, or at least such that is immediately apparent, I like coming up with some sort of story as to why that item is there. I'm still leaning on the theory that all of the raven feathers marked locations where Flemeth was playing voyeur. 

[thats1evildude]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

While it would be great to find coin on a routine basis, that may seem all too convenient, imo. I like seeing a healthy mix of random items and coin - it has an authentic feel to it, that it would be quite plausible to stumble across both when adventuring.

That is one of the main purposes of Vendor Trash like the junk items in DA2: to provide a bit of variety in the loots you find.

The second is to provide an alternative to conventional loot that certain monsters shouldn't be carrying. For example, giant spiders shouldn't really be carrying coins, but if the player could sell a spider fang at a shop, then s/he could still be rewarded for defeating this monster.

Of course, most monsters in DAO or DA2 carry money anyway regardless of whether it makes sense.

[caradoc2000]

At least the moths in Thedas are well fed.

[ElitePinecone]

naughty99 wrote...

We actually don't really need "junk" items to become wealthy in the game. There is ultimately no point to them, because they don't help to flesh out the clutter in the environments, since you can't ever see them in-game. In fact, in DA2 the devs decided to include diamonds and precious gems in the "junk" category and made them all completely worthless.

I agree entirely - junk felt like it was included as busywork because the devs felt environments needed something to encourage exploration, not because it was ever necessary or even fun. In terms of the game's economy it was completely pointless, and repeatedly collecting backpacks worth of junk felt like such a chore. 

[whykikyouwhy]

thats1evildude wrote...

Of course, most monsters in DAO or DA2 carry money anyway regardless of whether it makes sense.

Perhaps they had feasted on someone with a jingly purse all fattened with silver. 

[thats1evildude]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Perhaps they had feasted on someone with a jingly purse all fattened with silver.

That is the common handwave. It's not a bad one, but it's still a handwave.

But I don't get too worked up about treasure in RPGs anyway, because the economies in these games are totally bonkers. I try not to think too hard about why shopkeepers are interested in buying soiled underwear and ogre foreskins, or why silver coins comes popping out a dragon's bunghole like a scaly slots machine whenever I beat it to death. Along that road lies madness.

I just wanna note before parting that this wasn't an issue confined solely to DA2, as there was plenty of useless crap available as treasure in DAO. While there wasn't as much of it, blank vellums and fancy vases also didn't direct immediately to your giant "SELL ME" folder.

The worst thing Vendor Trash can do is be inconvenient to get rid of.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 27 septembre 2012 - 10:55 .

[Plaintiff]

It would be nice if "Junk" actually had a purpose, but then it wouldn't be "Junk" anymore, I suppose.

I'd prefer it if "Junk" had some sort of use, and currency was able to be earned in other ways besides quests and selling loot.

[henkez3]

Hey! You guys miss the importance of recycling in the world of Dragon Age. If Hawke ever was anything, he was an enviromental champion! Just think of all the junk items he sold that the merchants then recycled and put in to good use!

On a serious note, junk items taking up my inventory space when I was out on the longer quests in the game did annoy me, so maybe just getting coin would be better.

[hexaligned]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Junk items exist so the PC can make some extra cash selling things they know are worthless. It also gets them in the habit of checking their environment so when you do have something important, they don't rush by it.

You bring up a good point though. If any story element tells a player that something is important, some of them will be loathe to part with it.

I still recall Aveline accusing my Lady Hawke of selling her dead husband's shield. I was sort of hurt because I'd made sure to keep the shield in my inventory and later my chest because it felt wrong to part with it.

Which is why I DON'T want junk items to get that extra attention. If they seem important or significant in any way, I'll happily keep them just in case.

I blame adventure games. They taught me that every object you find might be useful later. You never know when a rubber chicken with a pulley in the middle might come in handy!

I did the same thing, I'm not even sure I ever brought myself to sell that shield.  

I like junk loot myself, no particular reason other than I like looting corpses and selling their ****.  I've played so  many RPG's that behavior is probably just burnt into my brain.
If I was going to change it, I would make it more of a trading minigame.  Have resources around the game areas that you can discover, have different merchants back in town that will give you varying prices for it, and tie the "intimidate", or "diplomacy" skills into negotiating a good price for them.  Something along those lines.

Modifié par relhart, 27 septembre 2012 - 11:05 .

[Wulfram]

I think the idea behind junk items is to get you to go to the shops to clear out your trash.

But I'd rather see looting massively reduced as a part of the game, personally.
Scrap junk items.
Scrap weak weapons and armour that no one is ever going to use.
Scrap or reduce the item treadmill that turns good items into junk after a couple of levels.
Scrap random barrels that usually contain potions, but that you can't ignore because they might contain crucial items.

For me, they do nothing but detract from enjoying the actually enjoyable parts of the game.

[naughty99]

Just look at all these freaking hundreds of items that have absolutely no purpose in the game world.

Many of them have interesting names, but sadly they are all slapped with this "JUNK" label. A big part of the fun of an RPG for me is exploring every nook and cranny, and finding some interesting objects in the world, as a sort of reward for exploration. Especially when there is some backstory that gives an interesting character to the environment, making us wonder about the people who placed them there.

Is it too much to ask that we can smelt down some broken darkspawn blades and steel bracelets for crafting weapons? Perhaps we can use some of those "junk" pelts and hides to craft ourselves some armor, or break down all those moth eaten scarves, tattered bedrolls and pantaloons into something useful, like cloth scraps for making bandages or parchment for crafting scrolls.

How about letting us make some jewelry out of all those dozens of different gemstones and precious metals. Or letting us read what is written on all those slaver invoices or the books titled "The Champion of Kirkwall," "The Search for the True Prophet," "Book of Forbidden Love" and "Book of Suggestive Caricature."

You mean to tell me that a "Poison Ring" and "Poison Gland Essence" has absolutely no use in the game world? Why not let us use some of the exotic alchemy sounding ingredients for actual alchemy, like Coarse Spider Hairs, Daemonia Vitae, Degenerate Essence, Dragon Iris, Dragon Vitriol, Empty Poison Flask, Fire Gland Essence, Spectral Extract, etc. Don't those sound like stuff we should be able to use for crafting? It was so disappointing to find something exciting like "Demonic Ichor" or a "Wyvern Scent Gland" and then find out it was completely pointless.

And if you find Orlesian Honeywine, some Dwarven Black Ale or a bottle of Aged Antivan Brandy, wouldn't it be nice if you can actually drink it? Or perhaps use it in a cooking recipe?

Modifié par naughty99, 27 septembre 2012 - 02:30 .

[EricHVela]

I would rather have nothing than junk items. If they felt it was necessary to make some extra $$$, just put the extra $$$ in the container. It seems to drastically pointless to have them at all. I see something labeled as "junk", only good for vendor trash and I'm pulled far out of the game's story to notice something extremely out-of-place.

I often suspect that some (usually many) of those items were intended to have purpose, but they slapped the "junk" attribute on them because they didn't have enough time to implement them or enough time to comb through the data to remove them (which would have left the world rather empty I think -- but the "junk" tag did just that anyway).

Modifié par ReggarBlane, 27 septembre 2012 - 02:34 .

[Svanhildr]

Ugh, those bloody scarfs. They were everywhere! I will say that junk items won't be sorely missed if they don't return.

[Maclimes]

 The advantage of the "Junk" category was that it allowed you to instantly just sell off anything you didn't want. The problem with it was that the game was telling you what you didn't want.

DA:O on consoles had a neat system where you can add any item to the "Junk" list (or remove it, if you wanted). At a vendor, you can just choose "sell all junk". BUT, there was never anything out in the world that was predefined by the game as "junk". That was left up to you to decide.

Armor no good for you? Junk. Weird crafting items you won't be using? Junk. Lyrium potions for an all-warrior party? Junk. Gifts for Loghain? Junk.

Now, there were items that existed solely for you to sell them. Wolf pelts, gemstones, and the like. But these are things that could, concievably, have value. They were straight up "treasure". It felt like you were actually getting something valuable when you looted a diamond or a silver chalice or something.

DA2 misunderstood that concept, and instead gave us literal garbage that, for some reason, everyone in the world is willing to buy. And on top of that, instead of the "junk" items being a small fraction of loot (like in DA:O), they upped the ratio and made "junk" items into the vast majority of the loot.

[ElitePinecone]

Maclimes wrote...

 The advantage of the "Junk" category was that it allowed you to instantly just sell off anything you didn't want. The problem with it was that the game was telling you what you didn't want.

DA:O on consoles had a neat system where you can add any item to the "Junk" list (or remove it, if you wanted). At a vendor, you can just choose "sell all junk". BUT, there was never anything out in the world that was predefined by the game as "junk". That was left up to you to decide.

Armor no good for you? Junk. Weird crafting items you won't be using? Junk. Lyrium potions for an all-warrior party? Junk. Gifts for Loghain? Junk.

Now, there were items that existed solely for you to sell them. Wolf pelts, gemstones, and the like. But these are things that could, concievably, have value. They were straight up "treasure". It felt like you were actually getting something valuable when you looted a diamond or a silver chalice or something.

DA2 misunderstood that concept, and instead gave us literal garbage that, for some reason, everyone in the world is willing to buy. And on top of that, instead of the "junk" items being a small fraction of loot (like in DA:O), they upped the ratio and made "junk" items into the vast majority of the loot.

This is a good summary. 

I'd suggest also that the ratio of junk-to-usable-items was upped so significantly because DA2 had no usable items other than what could be directly equipped (or drunk, for potions), and even then the proportion that the player could actually use was smaller still. There were no herbalism/poison/trap-making components, so what we could actually find around the environment was limited to weapons/armour/jewellery and literal junk. 

What this meant in practice was that almost all the loot that could be found in the gameworld was entirely useless, most of it was junk and of the remainder a significant amount couldn't be equipped by the player (or their companions) anyway. 

[Maclimes]

ElitePinecone wrote...

I'd suggest also that the ratio of junk-to-usable-items was upped so significantly because DA2 had no usable items other than what could be directly equipped (or drunk, for potions), and even then the proportion that the player could actually use was smaller still. There were no herbalism/poison/trap-making components, so what we could actually find around the environment was limited to weapons/armour/jewellery and literal junk. 

What this meant in practice was that almost all the loot that could be found in the gameworld was entirely useless, most of it was junk and of the remainder a significant amount couldn't be equipped by the player (or their companions) anyway. 

Good point. If you were going to loot something, there was a 99% chance it would be useless anyway. With companions unable to wear armor, class limitations on weapons, and the weird stat-enforced class restrictions on armor for Hawke, you can bet that almost all gear you found was useless.

There was no more crafting (well, not from lootable components), and no more gifts, so those are now out, too.