411 réponses à ce sujet

[Plaintiff]

brushyourteeth wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

It's very simple: In a conflict between oppressor and oppressed, always support the oppressed.

So if you walked into a Chantry and everyone inside was being attacked by blood mages, you'd defend them?

Without anymore context than that, I have to say no. While I may disagree with the use of blood magic, the mages are aggressors, not oppressors. The Chantry as a whole is still the oppressive organization it always was, which makes it the greater evil in this instance.

[The Hierophant]

hhh89 wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

The only mercy mages deserve.

I hope that you'll have that option in DA3. And good luck on facing the Qunari invasion in the future.

Would the Grey Wardens and the Qunari fight each other if the above happens?

[Xilizhra]

Good point. Are there suddenly more level-headed moderates hanging around than I realized?

The trouble is that the templars should not be the only police force that does that, as they're terrible at it. And "level-headed moderates" of that definition, in my own opinion, are either succumbing to the golden mean fallacy or are slipping towards that. Personally, I consider myself a moderate, with the mage equivalent of the templars being Tarohne and the like.

[Plaintiff]

Elton John is dead wrote...

So the new side would be neutral in the little conflict the mages and templars are having but would view both as the threat and wouldn't concern themselves with the details and morals behind their little conflict. So netural in view but not in action.

And then what? At the end of the day, you still support the status quo, which means you support the current oppressive state.

[brushyourteeth]

Plaintiff wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

It's very simple: In a conflict between oppressor and oppressed, always support the oppressed.

So if you walked into a Chantry and everyone inside was being attacked by blood mages, you'd defend them?

Without anymore context than that, I have to say no. While I may disagree with the use of blood magic, the mages are aggressors, not oppressors. The Chantry as a whole is still the oppressive organization it always was, which makes it the greater evil in this instance.

Including civilians who were just there attending the Chant or petitioning for charity?

I mean, regardless, that makes your original statement sadly not entirely true.

[Xilizhra]

brushyourteeth wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

It's very simple: In a conflict between oppressor and oppressed, always support the oppressed.

So if you walked into a Chantry and everyone inside was being attacked by blood mages, you'd defend them?

Without anymore context than that, I have to say no. While I may disagree with the use of blood magic, the mages are aggressors, not oppressors. The Chantry as a whole is still the oppressive organization it always was, which makes it the greater evil in this instance.

Including civilians who were just there attending the Chant or petitioning for charity?

I mean, regardless, that makes your original statement sadly not entirely true.

I think this question would go far better if we had any idea who was actually in the Chantry.

[The Elder King]

The Hierophant wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

The only mercy mages deserve.

I hope that you'll have that option in DA3. And good luck on facing the Qunari invasion in the future.

Would the Grey Wardens and the Qunari fight each other if the above happens?

Maybe.
If I were the First Warden, I would've tried to talk with the Triumvirate about the darskspawn long ago. I think that the Qunari would've sent some of them to fulfill a new role, the Warden role. The Blight is threat to everyone. It would be the only thing that will 100% stop the mage-templar war (not that I'm hoping that this should happen. It'd be boring).

[Xilizhra]

hhh89 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

The only mercy mages deserve.

I hope that you'll have that option in DA3. And good luck on facing the Qunari invasion in the future.

Would the Grey Wardens and the Qunari fight each other if the above happens?

Maybe.
If I were the First Warden, I would've tried to talk with the Triumvirate about the darskspawn long ago. I think that the Qunari would've sent some of them to fulfill a new role, the Warden role. The Blight is threat to everyone. It would be the only thing that will 100% stop the mage-templar war (not that I'm hoping that this should happen. It'd be boring).

It's unfortunate that the Deep Roads probably don't extend under Par Vollen. Otherwise... it could be a bit of an advantage if the next Archdemon just so happened to pop up there, in an enemy nation without Grey Wardens.

[Beerfish]

Not all of the oppressed are created equally, just as all of the oppressors are not created equally. There are very good reasons why one section of the population (mages) are oppressed. Until the people being oppressed in this game series come up with a very good, solid model to allow more freedoms while minimizing risks to others they are SOL in my opinion. I've yet to see any credible suggestions in this regard as of yet.

[The Elder King]

Xilizhra wrote...

Good point. Are there suddenly more level-headed moderates hanging around than I realized?

The trouble is that the templars should not be the only police force that does that, as they're terrible at it. And "level-headed moderates" of that definition, in my own opinion, are either succumbing to the golden mean fallacy or are slipping towards that. Personally, I consider myself a moderate, with the mage equivalent of the templars being Tarohne and the like.

You're considering all the templars to be extremist, having the same views and methods. It'd be the same if someone would consider you (which from your posts I consider moderate, but anti-templars), or any moderate mages who doesn't support the Circle system an extemist like Tarohne.

[Emzamination]

hhh89 wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

The only mercy mages deserve.

I hope that you'll have that option in DA3. And good luck on facing the Qunari invasion in the future.

Already executed said option in the ferelden circle and no qunari invasion. Even if the qunari do decide to invade, all I need is the sword of mercy around my neck, my templar bretheren at my side and the maker's fury coursing through my blade

[brushyourteeth]

Xilizhra wrote...

Good point. Are there suddenly more level-headed moderates hanging around than I realized?

The trouble is that the templars should not be the only police force that does that, as they're terrible at it. And "level-headed moderates" of that definition, in my own opinion, are either succumbing to the golden mean fallacy or are slipping towards that. Personally, I consider myself a moderate, with the mage equivalent of the templars being Tarohne and the like.

The thing is that the Chantry polices mages because
1.) so far, they're the only ones that care to, and
2.) they actually have the financial means to do it

If the Templars were somehow a non-religious organization, you'd have the same abuses you see from them now, only without any religion to blame - only the foulest of *human* nature. The writers make the point time and time again (though some refuse to see it) that there is good and bad in everyone, and that power corrupts. The dominant group will be guiltiest of the greatest evil. It was true of the magisters then, it is true of the Templars now.

That said, it's no excuse. What the Templar order as a whole does to mages is wrong. And from what we've heard from the Chant, it shouldn't be allowed by anyone who claims to be an Andrastian.

They don't hurt mages because they have a religious fervor (though the misunderstanding of "magic exists to serve man and never to rule over him" is a poor oversight on the Chantry's part) - they hurt mages because they can, and because they're trained to. Possibly because they've been hurt, or are afraid of being hurt. None of those are excuses, only realistic  reasons. But still, Templars are need in some capacity - because who will protect the world from the Tahrone's and the Quentin's and the Gaxkang's?

Really, the whole system needs to go back to the beginning and start over. Or Templars should just quit hunting mages and kill all the demons instead. Problem solved.

[Wotannanow]

Emzamination wrote...

This was an Idea already touched upon in dragon age 2 with hawke being able to make feynriel tranquil in the fade.I think it's only appropriate that if we're able to take one side or the other in Da3, we get access to all their perks as well.

Agree?

Only if it works for both sides. The mages should have the very same weapon to use against the templars, turning them into harmless 'zombies' to do the mages' bidding.

[Xilizhra]

You're considering all the templars to be extremist, having the same views and methods. It'd be the same if someone would consider you (which from your posts I consider moderate, but anti-templars), or any moderate mages who doesn't support the Circle system an extemist like Tarohne.

The Templar Order is extremist by default, as it left the Chantry to indulge in its pogrom against mages. If there are templars who don't like it, they can leave. Extremist and moderate mages don't generally belong to the same organizations.

If the Templars were somehow a non-religious organization, you'd have the same abuses you see from them now, only without any religion to blame - only the foulest of *human* nature. The writers make the point time and time again (though some refuse to see it) that there is good and bad in everyone, and that power corrupts. The dominant group will be guiltiest of the greatest evil. It was true of the magisters then, it is true of the Templars now.

Not if it was intrinsically bound to the Circle itself, with the templars under mage oversight as the mages are under templar oversight. In such a case, everyone could watch everyone else. Also, the religion is a great contributing factor; the Chantry is inherently magophobic and prizes this quality in its templars, and as a result, many don't see the templars as people.

[The Elder King]

[quote]Xilizhra wrote...


[/quote]
It's unfortunate that the Deep Roads probably don't extend under Par Vollen. Otherwise... it could be a bit of an advantage if the next Archdemon just so happened to pop up there, in an enemy nation without Grey Wardens.
[/quote]

Avantage in what sense? Because the Blight could be stopped in Par Vollen (with the Warden and maybe other armies going as soon as possible there, since it's vital to stop the darskpawn invasion as soon as possible), without spreading to the rest of Thedas? I agree with that. Though I consider the qunari an enemy nation in the same way I'd consider the Tevinter (for its slavery).

[BobZilla84]

I think that the overall opinion in alot of peoples minds are that Mages are the Victims and The Chantry/Templars are Evil and while the Chantry is to blame for the Templars mistreating the Mages of the Circles which I completely agree on that aspect.

But honestly throughout the Entirety of the Dragon Age Series all the Mages have been treachorous B******* except 3 those being Irving and Wynne and Bethany.

[Xilizhra]

Avantage in what sense? Because the Blight could be stopped in Par Vollen (with the Warden and maybe other armies going as soon as possible there, since it's vital to stop the darskpawn invasion as soon as possible), without spreading to the rest of Thedas? I agree with that. Though I consider the qunari an enemy nation in the same way I'd consider the Tevinter (for its slavery).

Well... it may be advantageous to let the Blight be until Par Vollen was sufficiently wrecked, then show up fashionably late.

[The Hierophant]

hhh89 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

The only mercy mages deserve.

I hope that you'll have that option in DA3. And good luck on facing the Qunari invasion in the future.

Would the Grey Wardens and the Qunari fight each other if the above happens?

Maybe.
If I were the First Warden, I would've tried to talk with the Triumvirate about the darskspawn long ago. I think that the Qunari would've sent some of them to fulfill a new role, the Warden role. The Blight is threat to everyone. It would be the only thing that will 100% stop the mage-templar war (not that I'm hoping that this should happen. It'd be boring).

I would be surprised if this never happens, plus Sten who saw what the darkspawn are capable of is probably the Arishok now. Sten and the pc Warden might be able to broker a deal in terms of manpower, explosives, and an armistice to the Qunari invasion of Thedas.(wishful thinking)

Modifié par The Hierophant, 28 septembre 2012 - 04:16 .

[Plaintiff]

The Hierophant wrote...
The Tevinter Imperium still widely practices slavery.

So what? Tevinter's state has nthing to do with magic and everything to do with the fact that the people in charge are just ****s, and would be whether they were mages or not. What happens in Tevinter is irrelevent to the situation in the rest of Thedas.

My main point is that regardless if someone is a templar or mage, there will always be an abuse of power. Kirkwall represents the worst of the templars while the Tevinter continues to do same for the mages.

So punish the abusers when they abuse. 

The templar order is obviously not perfect but they are the only police force who combats demons, abominations, and magical Pol Pots. If the Order is disbanded who will protect the populace from the previously mentioned?

A new, secular order. Nobody said the mages should go unpoliced. That job simply should not be in the hands of religious zealots.

The mages on the flip side should easily be given freedom, but are a mixed bag in terms of morals, ambition, and resistance to demons.

Which is why we reform the Circle system, rather than abolishing it completely. Duh.

A good compromise would be the creation of a Hogwarts like boarding school for mages, and when they graduate they'e given conditional freedom.(E.g.abstain from forbidden magic unless given clearance, and monitored.)
The templar's ability should be taught to neutral forces like the local guard,kingsguard, and soldiers. The order would be gradually disbanded or reformed into another organization that is politically/religiously neutral like the Grey Wardens.

That is the basic idea, yes, but it's a lot more complicated than that.

Exactly what did you think I was suggesting?

[Plaintiff]

brushyourteeth wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

It's very simple: In a conflict between oppressor and oppressed, always support the oppressed.

So if you walked into a Chantry and everyone inside was being attacked by blood mages, you'd defend them?

Without anymore context than that, I have to say no. While I may disagree with the use of blood magic, the mages are aggressors, not oppressors. The Chantry as a whole is still the oppressive organization it always was, which makes it the greater evil in this instance.

Including civilians who were just there attending the Chant or petitioning for charity?

I mean, regardless, that makes your original statement sadly not entirely true.

Whether or not there are civilians inside is part of the "more context" that I said I would need in order to make an informed decision. I'm not just going to assume that there are.

[The Elder King]

Xilizhra wrote...

You're considering all the templars to be extremist, having the same views and methods. It'd be the same if someone would consider you (which from your posts I consider moderate, but anti-templars), or any moderate mages who doesn't support the Circle system an extemist like Tarohne.

The Templar Order is extremist by default, as it left the Chantry to indulge in its pogrom against mages. If there are templars who don't like it, they can leave. Extremist and moderate mages don't generally belong to the same organizations.
.

The Circle system, where pro-Chantry and pro-mages (even extremist) disagree with this. And in the rebelling mages there are present both moderate and extremist mages.

Emzamination wrote...



Already executed said option in the ferelden circle and no qunari invasion. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/wink.png[/smilie]
Even if the qunari do decide to invade, all I need is the sword of
mercy around my neck, my templar bretheren at my side and the maker's
fury coursing through my blade [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/ninja.png[/smilie]

Ferelden is a single minor state. The current war involds all the Andratian nations. The mages were crucial on stoppin the qunari. But hey, believe that sheer numbers (and we don't even know if we have an advantage in numbers) is enough to stop enemy there are far mor advanced than us, without using the only think in which we are surely superior-magic.

[Xilizhra]

The Circle system, where pro-Chantry and pro-mages (even extremist) disagree with this. And in the rebelling mages there are present both moderate and extremist mages.

The Circles no longer exist.

[The Elder King]

Xilizhra wrote...

Avantage in what sense? Because the Blight could be stopped in Par Vollen (with the Warden and maybe other armies going as soon as possible there, since it's vital to stop the darskpawn invasion as soon as possible), without spreading to the rest of Thedas? I agree with that. Though I consider the qunari an enemy nation in the same way I'd consider the Tevinter (for its slavery).

Well... it may be advantageous to let the Blight be until Par Vollen was sufficiently wrecked, then show up fashionably late.

It's huge gamble. The horde could become strong enough to invade other nations before being stopped. And anyway, the qunari will suffer major damages regardless. No matter how much faster the Wardens and the other nations can move their armies, it'll pass some times before they'll arrive.

[The Elder King]

Xilizhra wrote...

The Circle system, where pro-Chantry and pro-mages (even extremist) disagree with this. And in the rebelling mages there are present both moderate and extremist mages.

The Circles no longer exist.

The rebelling mages's group exists, and they'll still composed by moderate and extremist.
And anyway, the Circle existed for centuries with moderate and extremist mages inside. My point still stands.

Modifié par hhh89, 28 septembre 2012 - 04:23 .

[Xilizhra]

hhh89 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The Circle system, where pro-Chantry and pro-mages (even extremist) disagree with this. And in the rebelling mages there are present both moderate and extremist mages.

The Circles no longer exist.

The rebelling mages's group exists, and they'll still composed by moderate and extremist.
And anyway, the Circle existed for centuries with moderate and extremist mages inside. My point still stands.

But in that case, no mage could leave the Circles, unlike the templars. And in any event, I've never seen any Circle mages who want to reconstruct the original Tevinter Imperium.