411 réponses à ce sujet

[Plaintiff]

brushyourteeth wrote...

The thing is that the Chantry polices mages because
1.) so far, they're the only ones that care to, and
2.) they actually have the financial means to do it

With its militaristic forces gone, we can easily solve this by reducing the Chantry to rubble and using the obscene wealth it's accumulated over the centuries to forge a new system from the ashes.

If the Templars were somehow a non-religious organization, you'd have the same abuses you see from them now, only without any religion to blame - only the foulest of *human* nature. The writers make the point time and time again (though some refuse to see it) that there is good and bad in everyone, and that power corrupts. The dominant group will be guiltiest of the greatest evil. It was true of the magisters then, it is true of the Templars now.

But it's not true of everybody everywhere. It's not true of many powerful people today. It would be entirely possible to make a system with better oversight that enforces its own rules. The Chantry just refuses to out of laziness and apathy for anything besides the consolidation and maintenance of its own power.

[The Hierophant]

Plaintiff wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...
The Tevinter Imperium still widely practices slavery.

So what? Tevinter's state has nthing to do with magic and everything to do with the fact that the people in charge are just ****s, and would be whether they were mages or not. What happens in Tevinter is irrelevent to the situation in the rest of Thedas.

The Hierophant wrote...

*edit*The tevinter magisters set a bad example by abusing their powers for amusement/petty duals along with the Black Divine. The Tevinter Magisters misusing their powers have unleased five blights on Thedas with two more on the way.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 28 septembre 2012 - 04:34 .

[Rawgrim]

Considering how every damn Mage i ran into in DA2 turned to blood magic, I will be pro-templar in every future DA games.

[brushyourteeth]

Plaintiff wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

The thing is that the Chantry polices mages because
1.) so far, they're the only ones that care to, and
2.) they actually have the financial means to do it

With its militaristic forces gone, we can easily solve this by reducing the Chantry to rubble and using the obscene wealth it's accumulated over the centuries to forge a new system from the ashes.

If the Templars were somehow a non-religious organization, you'd have the same abuses you see from them now, only without any religion to blame - only the foulest of *human* nature. The writers make the point time and time again (though some refuse to see it) that there is good and bad in everyone, and that power corrupts. The dominant group will be guiltiest of the greatest evil. It was true of the magisters then, it is true of the Templars now.

But it's not true of everybody everywhere. It's not true of many powerful people today. It would be entirely possible to make a system with better oversight that enforces its own rules. The Chantry just refuses to out of laziness and apathy for anything besides the consolidation and maintenance of its own power.

I would agree that the Chantry needs to be re-forged. Not abolished, not replaced. And I'd personally be completely fine with non-Chantry folk (though good look finding 'em - a secular society won't mean in Thedas what it would me to us in the real world) taking the place of the Templars. 

Mark my words, though - the second that mages become the dominant power in Thedas, they become the ultimate bad guy. The oppressor, as you'd say it. It's the inevitable conclusion to being the one in control. Then an Inquisition like the first one would rise up to fight back and protect the populace from magical abuse, something like the Chantry would rise up to help, and the cycle would repeat itself.

The only way to solve this problem is for both sides to admit their imperfections and find ways of working together that enhance one another's strengths - like a team.

[Medhia Nox]

People throw such a fit about Tranquility.

Anders alone makes me see why Tranquility is necessary.

And the Tranquil seem to actually fit their name - they have absolutely zero issues with who they are.

Interesting really - since this is my argument for AI and why they wouldn't turn out how they're always depicted.

The Geth should have been more like Tranquil - perfectly at peace and free of emotional states.

AND they're still useful - all that extra thinking power gives Owain (from DA:O) the ability to keep the stockroom well taken care of.

If only we could make real world criminals Tranquil....

[Xilizhra]

The only way to solve this problem is for both sides to admit their imperfections and find ways of working together that enhance one another's strengths - like a team.

Why is the Andrastian Chantry the thing that must be allowed into the team? Why should it be allowed to hold any power? I don't believe it should, any more than Tevinter.

[Plaintiff]

The Hierophant wrote...
The point is that the people in charge, including the Black Divine are mages who abuse their power making all mages look bad by extension.

And? People are still responsible for their own logic fail. If I get mugged by a non-white person, that doesn't justify me turning into a bigot.

The Tevinter magisters misusing their power are the main reason that Thedas has suffered five blights, with two more on the way.

There is absolutely no proof of this. In fact, there is evidence to suggest that this is not the case at all.

All we know for certain is that at least one Ancient Tevinter magister entered the Black City and was afflicted with the Darkspawn taint. This does not mean they created Darkspawn, nor does it mean that they caused the Old Gods to become corrupted.

Even if it was all true, it doesn't justify the poor treatment of unrelated mages several thousand years later.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 28 septembre 2012 - 04:38 .

[brushyourteeth]

Xilizhra wrote...

The only way to solve this problem is for both sides to admit their imperfections and find ways of working together that enhance one another's strengths - like a team.

Why is the Andrastian Chantry the thing that must be allowed into the team? Why should it be allowed to hold any power? I don't believe it should, any more than Tevinter.

If your population includes Andrastians, that part of your population deserves a say in how things are run. You have Andrastian mages. You will have Andrastians with templar abilities. It's time to quit the finger-pointing and focus on the solution.

And I guess in a practical sense, you then have three choices:
1.) work with the Chantry, since they have the care and the coin to support the mages. Aid in its reform so that this abuse never happens again to anyone.
2.) plunder the little guy, since the mages will have no other way of maintaining themselves financially for some time. The rest of Thedas will hate mages forever.
3.) destroy the Chantry. The rest of Thedas will hate mages forever.

[Xilizhra]

Why not just plunder the Chantry as opposed to the "little guy?" Also, the Chantry isn't the same thing as the people.

[brushyourteeth]

Xilizhra wrote...

Why not just plunder the Chantry as opposed to the "little guy?" Also, the Chantry isn't the same thing as the people.

Plundering the Chantry would be the same as option 3. The end result would be the same, and the "little guy" would be every bit as offended as if you took the bread from his table. Maybe more, since you stole from the Maker himself (as he would see it). "Those evil mages must be destroyed" etc. etc.

And the Chantry is the same thing as the people. It's made up of the people. Most of the people, in fact. Aside from your dwarves, your Qunari, and your Dalish, at least 90% of "the people" are part of the Chantry. I know that bugs you, but it's true.

[Medhia Nox]

They don't turn everyone Tranquil.

Though I've never seen it stated - there can really only be two types of Tranquil in The Circle style of mage governing.

1) Mages who choose Tranquility over The Harrowing .

2) Mages who successfully complete The Harrowing - but prove to be too dangerous at some point in their lives and must be dealt with.

Tranquility is used against CRIMINALS...

And Kirkwall is an example of its abuse... not how it's normally done - they make that clear in the game.

[Plaintiff]

Medhia Nox wrote...

They don't turn everyone Tranquil.

Though I've never seen it stated - there can really only be two types of Tranquil in The Circle style of mage governing.

1) Mages who choose Tranquility over The Harrowing .

2) Mages who successfully complete The Harrowing - but prove to be too dangerous at some point in their lives and must be dealt with.

Tranquility is used against CRIMINALS...

And Kirkwall is an example of its abuse... not how it's normally done - they make that clear in the game.

Actually, they also use Tranquility on mages who are deemed "too weak" to even attempt the Harrowing. This is a major factor in why Jowan wanted to escape from the Circle Tower during the mage origin in DA:O. It has nothing to do with his criminal actions, as he is not found to be a criminal until later.

[Xilizhra]

brushyourteeth wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Why not just plunder the Chantry as opposed to the "little guy?" Also, the Chantry isn't the same thing as the people.

Plundering the Chantry would be the same as option 3. The end result would be the same, and the "little guy" would be every bit as offended as if you took the bread from his table. Maybe more, since you stole from the Maker himself (as he would see it). "Those evil mages must be destroyed" etc. etc.

And the Chantry is the same thing as the people. It's made up of the people. Most of the people, in fact. Aside from your dwarves, your Qunari, and your Dalish, at least 90% of "the people" are part of the Chantry. I know that bugs you, but it's true.

Very well. Then we'll rely on gracious donations from the Chantry to set up our own system free of its interference. As part of the Chantry's commitment to charity, of course.

[brushyourteeth]

Xilizhra wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Why not just plunder the Chantry as opposed to the "little guy?" Also, the Chantry isn't the same thing as the people.

Plundering the Chantry would be the same as option 3. The end result would be the same, and the "little guy" would be every bit as offended as if you took the bread from his table. Maybe more, since you stole from the Maker himself (as he would see it). "Those evil mages must be destroyed" etc. etc.

And the Chantry is the same thing as the people. It's made up of the people. Most of the people, in fact. Aside from your dwarves, your Qunari, and your Dalish, at least 90% of "the people" are part of the Chantry. I know that bugs you, but it's true.

Very well. Then we'll rely on gracious donations from the Chantry to set up our own system free of its interference. As part of the Chantry's commitment to charity, of course.

LOL! - who knows? If you can manage to kill all the jerk Templars and Seekers for her (yourself, mostly, but she'd appreciate it) Justinia could just grant that kind of boon. I'd imagine most of the Templars and Seekers loyal to her would be sick to death of mages vs. templars by the end and might be fine with seeing how the mages do on their own for once.

[The Hierophant]

Plaintiff my point is that (excluding abominations) the Chantry uses the Tevinter as the proverbial boogie man to lock away mages.Common sense is a rare ability in Thedas.

Plus Corypheus a magister believing that he would be made a god(naive) used his power to enter the unexplored Golden City(No precaution whatsoever) and brought back a magical plague into Thedas.

The problem is that Thedas has to suffer for over a millenia due to a misuse of magic. Mages shouldn't be locked up, but they have to be responsible with their abilities, and ensure that they don't bring Cthulhu or any of his diseases into Thedas.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 28 septembre 2012 - 04:54 .

[brushyourteeth]

Xilizhra, sometimes I feel like you're Adrian and I'm Wynne and we're sitting in a barn debating about what should happen to the Circle. Just putting that out there.

[berelinde]

4. Restrict the chantry to its original intent, religious guidance for those who seek it, and allow the mages to support themselves as artisans, scholars, healers, and voluntary militia. The populace eventually learns to accept mages as part of society and every group is spared the corruption absolute power brings.

Also, it's easy to forget this, but the Circle's wealth did not come from the Chantry. It came from the formari mages enchanting items. It is arguable that much of the Chantry's wealth came from exploiting the formari craftsmen, though, so with no mages to milk for coin, the Chantry may be in dire financial straits itself.

[Plaintiff]

The Hierophant wrote...

Plaintiff my point is that (excluding abominations) the Chantry uses the Tevinter as the proverbial boogie man to lock away mages.Common sense is a rare ability in Thedas.

Plus Corypheus a magister believing that he would be made a god(naive) used his power to enter the unexplored Golden City(No precaution whatsoever) and brought back a magical plague into Thedas.

The problem is that Thedas has to suffer for over a millenia due to a misuse of magic. Mages shouldn't be locked up, but they have to be responsible with their abilities, and ensure that they don't bring Cthulhu or any of his diseases into Thedas.

I say again, we don't know that magic created the Darkspawn. Corypheus became infected, yes, but there is no evidence that he infected anyone else. We don't even really know much about how the Taint spreads. And if the Chantry stories regarding the origins of Darkspawn are accurate, then why do they conflict with Dwarven records?

Obviously people have to be responsible with their magic, I never claimed otherwise.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 28 septembre 2012 - 04:59 .

[Xilizhra]

LOL! - who knows? If you can manage to kill all the jerk Templars and Seekers for her (yourself, mostly, but she'd appreciate it) Justinia could just grant that kind of boon. I'd imagine most of the Templars and Seekers loyal to her would be sick to death of mages vs. templars by the end and might be fine with seeing how the mages do on their own for once.

I suspect that those are a tiny rump of sorts, but regardless... Justinia would be willing to surrender all control? Unless, of course, the Circles could just pay for themselves via the formari, as Berelinde suggested...

[brushyourteeth]

berelinde wrote...

4. Restrict the chantry to its original intent, religious guidance for those who seek it, and allow the mages to support themselves as artisans, scholars, healers, and voluntary militia. The populace eventually learns to accept mages as part of society and every group is spared the corruption absolute power brings.

That's a really good ultimate goal, but it won't happen in a day. The mages at Andoral's Reach already need coin, like, yesterday. If they can find allies who will grant them coin or supplies, they'll be able to survive. Justinia could be doing that, I guess. She did help the Orlesian mages escape from Val Royeaux.

But how they'd get the general populace to even tolerate them outside of Chantry aid is something I could only guess at. They distrust mages, for reasons that are both valid and baloney. The great majority of them won't buy their enchanted goods without the ok from the Chantry ("I don't know what the mages did to that thing. It might be possessed! It might kill me!"), few but the nobles are interested in scholarship anyway, most would be hesitant to accept mage healing, and none but the most brave or desperate would want mages in their militia. For a few decades, unless the mages can do something radical to prove themselves benevolent.

Also, it's easy to forget this, but the Circle's wealth did not come from the Chantry. It came from the formari mages enchanting items. It is arguable that much of the Chantry's wealth came from exploiting the formari craftsmen, though, so with no mages to milk for coin, the Chantry may be in dire financial straits itself.

That's a very good point. The Chantry could be feeling that loss financially a few years down the line. Especially with no Tranquil around to enchant. There'd be a few mages who wanted to stick with Chantry jobs, I'm sure. But nothing like they had before.

[The Hierophant]

Plaintiff wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Plaintiff my point is that (excluding abominations) the Chantry uses the Tevinter as the proverbial boogie man to lock away mages.Common sense is a rare ability in Thedas.

Plus Corypheus a magister believing that he would be made a god(naive) used his power to enter the unexplored Golden City(No precaution whatsoever) and brought back a magical plague into Thedas.

The problem is that Thedas has to suffer for over a millenia due to a misuse of magic. Mages shouldn't be locked up, but they have to be responsible with their abilities, and ensure that they don't bring Cthulhu or any of his diseases into Thedas.

I say again, we don't know that magic created the Darkspawn. Corypheus became infected, yes, but there is no evidence that he infected anyone else. We don't even really know much about how the Taint spreads. And if the Chantry stories regarding the origins of Darkspawn are accurate, then why do they conflict with Dwarven records?

Obviously people have to be responsible with their magic, I never claimed otherwise.

To fill in the holes of how the taint would spread throughout Tevinter, i'd imagine Corypheus as like that monkey from the film Outbreak.

[berelinde]

Also keep in mind that lyrium is expensive, templars are addicts, and having cut themselves off from the support of the Chantry (and the Circle, obviously), they now have no source of income. With hordes of lyrium-deprived templars pillaging the countryside for coin to buy their next fix, it's probable that templars are not the most popular group in Thedas right now.

[brushyourteeth]

Xilizhra wrote...

LOL! - who knows? If you can manage to kill all the jerk Templars and Seekers for her (yourself, mostly, but she'd appreciate it) Justinia could just grant that kind of boon. I'd imagine most of the Templars and Seekers loyal to her would be sick to death of mages vs. templars by the end and might be fine with seeing how the mages do on their own for once.

I suspect that those are a tiny rump of sorts, but regardless... Justinia would be willing to surrender all control? Unless, of course, the Circles could just pay for themselves via the formari, as Berelinde suggested...

I honestly don't know what Justinia wants, outside of the end of mage abuse. She plays the game with Lambert about wanting to keep the mages under control, and no one can say how much of that was real and how much was temporary appeasement. Early in the book she announces to practically every noble in Orlais that mages deserve to be honored for their skill in battle and treated as equals. Everyone seems to have a different idea of what that looks like. I guess we'll see.

[brushyourteeth]

berelinde wrote...

Also keep in mind that lyrium is expensive, templars are addicts, and having cut themselves off from the support of the Chantry (and the Circle, obviously), they now have no source of income. With hordes of lyrium-deprived templars pillaging the countryside for coin to buy their next fix, it's probable that templars are not the most popular group in Thedas right now.

Yeah. Like the end of DAII, we'll probably be killing roving bands of templars and apostates no matter what side we're on. 

[The Elder King]

Plaintiff wrote..
Actually, they also use Tranquility on mages who are deemed "too weak" to even attempt the Harrowing. This is a major factor in why Jowan wanted to escape from the Circle Tower during the mage origin in DA:O. It has nothing to do with his criminal actions, as he is not found to be a criminal until later.

While it's true that the Harrowing is used on mages considered "too weak", Jowan wanted to escape because it was a blood mage and he knew someone saw him using it.