411 réponses à ce sujet

[Medhia Nox]

@Plaintiff: Jowan was a blood mage - who had a forbidden tryst with a priest - and wanted to escape and destroy his phylactery.

Now... Irving knows a good deal of this. He DOES remove the books on Blood Magic only recently... and the only indication as to "why" he does this... is Jowan.

I could speculate a whole host of other ideas... but that's what we're actually given.

He (Irving) knows about Lily and Jowan... we're told that he's (Jowan) far too weak as a mage... and after just replaying it, I saw nothing that said Irving confirms that they're going to turn Jowan tranquil.

Jowan was a criminal in MANY ways... and became paranoid. Lily "does" say that she overheard a Templar talking about it - but we also know that Irving is a conniving old magister that prefers to have people caught "red handed".

Two NPCs point to the idea that 1) Every mage/apprentice in the tower knows "somebody" was practicing blood magic. and 2) Jowan is acting "strange" lately. It's repeated often.

Irving knew he was shacking up with Lily.... and "probably" knew he was studying Blood Magic.

Sorry - I wouldn't let a Blood Mage go through the Harrowing. If you can't control yourself as an apprentice... committing crime after crime... what kind of mage would you be?

[Xilizhra]

brushyourteeth wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

LOL! - who knows? If you can manage to kill all the jerk Templars and Seekers for her (yourself, mostly, but she'd appreciate it) Justinia could just grant that kind of boon. I'd imagine most of the Templars and Seekers loyal to her would be sick to death of mages vs. templars by the end and might be fine with seeing how the mages do on their own for once.

I suspect that those are a tiny rump of sorts, but regardless... Justinia would be willing to surrender all control? Unless, of course, the Circles could just pay for themselves via the formari, as Berelinde suggested...

I honestly don't know what Justinia wants, outside of the end of mage abuse. She plays the game with Lambert about wanting to keep the mages under control, and no one can say how much of that was real and how much was temporary appeasement. Early in the book she announces to practically every noble in Orlais that mages deserve to be honored for their skill in battle and treated as equals. Everyone seems to have a different idea of what that looks like. I guess we'll see.

I for one don't trust her until I have proof that she'll act on my side. She has to be willing to do a heck of a lot, in comparison to what came before.

[brushyourteeth]

Xilizhra wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

LOL! - who knows? If you can manage to kill all the jerk Templars and Seekers for her (yourself, mostly, but she'd appreciate it) Justinia could just grant that kind of boon. I'd imagine most of the Templars and Seekers loyal to her would be sick to death of mages vs. templars by the end and might be fine with seeing how the mages do on their own for once.

I suspect that those are a tiny rump of sorts, but regardless... Justinia would be willing to surrender all control? Unless, of course, the Circles could just pay for themselves via the formari, as Berelinde suggested...

I honestly don't know what Justinia wants, outside of the end of mage abuse. She plays the game with Lambert about wanting to keep the mages under control, and no one can say how much of that was real and how much was temporary appeasement. Early in the book she announces to practically every noble in Orlais that mages deserve to be honored for their skill in battle and treated as equals. Everyone seems to have a different idea of what that looks like. I guess we'll see.

I for one don't trust her until I have proof that she'll act on my side. She has to be willing to do a heck of a lot, in comparison to what came before.

Well, she did publicly announce her intentions of giving mages more freedom. Pissed off the mage-haters so bad that they up and left. Gathered to her side every reasonable Templar and Seeker (I think a purge is coming. She's separating the wheat from the chaff, so to speak). She funded a secret project to reverse the right of Tranquility, then secretly announced to every Circle that it was possible - the point being to give them hope. After that she saw that every mage under her direct care was safely removed from danger so that they could make an independent decision about what to do next.

I'd say that's a lot. And she may be doing more.

[Xilizhra]

Well, she did publicly announce her intentions of giving mages more freedom. Pissed off the mage-haters so bad that they up and left. Gathered to her side every reasonable Templar and Seeker (I think a purge is coming. She's separating the wheat from the chaff, so to speak). She funded a secret project to reverse the right of Tranquility, then secretly announced to every Circle that it was possible - the point being to give them hope. After that she saw that every mage under her direct care was safely removed from danger so that they could make an independent decision about what to do next.

I'd say that's a lot. And she may be doing more.

If I had my way with the plot, the purge would go the other direction: the templars would take over the Chantry, lock up Justinia, and use governmental power to enact their mage pogrom.
In any case, she's done... things, yes. They were relatively good for a tyrant, but she remains a tyrant until she dissolves the Chantry's rule over mages. I'm not going to assassinate her, but I'm not going to support the Chantry unless she relinquishes any and all control over mages... and can make that last beyond her own life.

[Plaintiff]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Plaintiff: Jowan was a blood mage - who had a forbidden tryst with a priest - and wanted to escape and destroy his phylactery.

Now... Irving knows a good deal of this. He DOES remove the books on Blood Magic only recently... and the only indication as to "why" he does this... is Jowan.

I could speculate a whole host of other ideas... but that's what we're actually given.

He (Irving) knows about Lily and Jowan... we're told that he's (Jowan) far too weak as a mage... and after just replaying it, I saw nothing that said Irving confirms that they're going to turn Jowan tranquil.

Jowan was a criminal in MANY ways... and became paranoid. Lily "does" say that she overheard a Templar talking about it - but we also know that Irving is a conniving old magister that prefers to have people caught "red handed".

Two NPCs point to the idea that 1) Every mage/apprentice in the tower knows "somebody" was practicing blood magic. and 2) Jowan is acting "strange" lately. It's repeated often.

Irving knew he was shacking up with Lily.... and "probably" knew he was studying Blood Magic.

Sorry - I wouldn't let a Blood Mage go through the Harrowing. If you can't control yourself as an apprentice... committing crime after crime... what kind of mage would you be?

The fact that Jowan was the target is just a matter of luck. It could've just as easily been an innocent, and any numer of innocents have likely fallen to this despicable little practice before Jowan came along.

"Weakness" is a subjective and utterly arbitrary term, there are no clear guidelines for what it means. All we know is that if the authorities decide you'll likely fail the Harrowing, they tranquil you before you get a chance to try it.

[Medhia Nox]

@Plaintiff: Weakness is NOT arbitrary in a world where demons are trying to beat down your door.

We see this with Connor. Even if you free him from the Desire Demon? - she laughs and says she WILL get him when he goes through his Harrowing.

It is said over and over that if a mage is not strong enough - a demon will eventually consume him.

Outside of Kirkwall we do NOT have examples (to my knowledge) of "any number of innocents" "falling to this despicable little practice".

If you can provide some - I'd be interested in hearing them. But if you can't - this is the most important proof against the "Tranquility and Mage Control" is evil argument. If we have no examples that "any number of innocent" mages are being unjustly rounded up and Tranquilized... then simply thinking that it happens - is  conjecture and in no way "Canon".

But we DO have examples of people tortured by their magic... and seeking a way to free themselves from it. Owain says he CHOSE Tranquility... and he simply couldn't be happier. The young girl you find praying thinks becoming Tranquil is the best possible idea for her - even AFTER you explain that her emotions will be removed.

This is not the real world... this is a world where weak mages WILL become abominations - it's guaranteed... the only question is "when".

Even for all their crazy - the Templars in Kirkwall were right about the Circle there. It was literally a filthy seething den of Blood Magic.

Oh - and becoming a criminal because other people are criminals... isn't justifiable.

Do you think Anders killed "any umber of innocents"?

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 28 septembre 2012 - 05:43 .

[Plaintiff]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Plaintiff: Weakness is NOT arbitrary in a world where demons are trying to beat down your door.

We see this with Connor. Even if you free him from the Desire Demon? - she laughs and says she WILL get him when he goes through his Harrowing.

It is said over and over that if a mage is not strong enough - a demon will eventually consume him.

Outside of Kirkwall we do NOT have examples (to my knowledge) of "any number of innocents" "falling to this despicable little practice".

If you can provide some - I'd be interested in hearing them. But if you can't - this is the most important proof against the "Tranquility and Mage Control" is evil argument. If we have no examples that "any number of innocent" mages are being unjustly rounded up and Tranquilized... then simply thinking that it happens - is  conjecture and in no way "Canon".

But we DO have examples of people tortured by their magic... and seeking a way to free themselves from it. Owain says he CHOSE Tranquility... and he simply couldn't be happier. The young girl you find praying thinks becoming Tranquil is the best possible idea for her - even AFTER you explain that her emotions will be removed.

This is not the real world... this is a world where weak mages WILL become abominations - it's guaranteed... the only question is "when".

Even for all their crazy - the Templars in Kirkwall were right about the Circle there. It was literally a filthy seething den of Blood Magic.

Oh - and becoming a criminal because other people are criminals... isn't justifiable.

Do you think Anders killed "any umber of innocents"?

What is "weakness" in this context? What is "strength"? How are these things determined?

It's arbitrary because these terms have no clear definition. We do not know the guidelines by which weakness and strength are judged in mages. An authority figure can point at any mage and say "He/she is weak! Take them to the mind-rape machine!", and that mage will never have a chance to prove themselves.

Here's a thought: maybe the mages should be taught how to combat demons, and face them prior to the Harrowing under controlled conditions with experienced mages spervising. Pretty much anything is better than throwing them blind into a test where they'll likely be killed.

[The Elder King]

@Medhia Nox: If Connor is freed from the demon, he'll succesfully pass his Harrowing. I'll suggest using better examples.

Modifié par hhh89, 28 septembre 2012 - 05:57 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Xilizhra wrote...

Avantage in what sense? Because the Blight could be stopped in Par Vollen (with the Warden and maybe other armies going as soon as possible there, since it's vital to stop the darskpawn invasion as soon as possible), without spreading to the rest of Thedas? I agree with that. Though I consider the qunari an enemy nation in the same way I'd consider the Tevinter (for its slavery).

Well... it may be advantageous to let the Blight be until Par Vollen was sufficiently wrecked, then show up fashionably late.

I doubt you would want a Blight in Par Vollen to go on for longer than the minimum... Letting the Darkspawn multiply through Kossith broodmothers would be a very bad thing for the rest of Thedas.

[Medhia Nox]

@Plaintiff: That's a valid argument that I would get behind. Why nothing is ever said of The Harrowing prior to the event is confusing. I remember that "reasons" were given... but they did seem wildly dismissive reasons.

This is absolutely a mages first foray into the Fade - but we're not told why they aren't accompanied into the Fade prior to this moment to better prepare them.

I am still very much Pro-Tranquil for criminal mages and young mages who would choose it over The Harrowing. 

Again - we have no examples outside of Jowan of young mages being forced into Tranquility prior to The Harrowing and as I believe I've shown - Jowan was already breaking MANY laws. 

===

@hhh89: I distinctly remember her saying that she will be back for Connor.

Did you do the "lyrium" or the "blood magic" - "save"?

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 28 septembre 2012 - 06:07 .

[Xilizhra]

@hhh89: I distinctly remember her saying that she will be back for Connor.

That doesn't mean she's right.

[The Elder King]

Medhia Nox wrote...



@hhh89: I distinctly remember her saying that she will be back for Connor.

Did you do the "lyrium" or the "blood magic" - "save"?

Both. The dialogue with the demon might be different depending on the path, but I remember that in the epilogue, if Connor is saved from he demon, is stated that he passed the Harrowing, regardless of the method used for saving him. Maybe the only difference is that with the blood magic path he went to Tevinter to study the Fade, but I don't remember if this happened even in the lyrium path
And the fact that she'll come back doesn't mean that she'll succeed.

Modifié par hhh89, 28 septembre 2012 - 06:16 .

[Medhia Nox]

@Xilizhra: Yes, but if we're going to make things up... I can say that Tranquility is the only salvation for a mage, or any being on Thedas, and that everyone else just isn't aware of it.

In a story - the elements revealed to you - are often relevant for a reason.

===

@hhh89: I simply cannot excuse people are who are prone to becoming automatons for powerful malevolent creatures by saying:

"With the power of HOPE - you might not kill hundreds or thousands - NEXT time you're possessed."

====

I find blindly stating that every instance of Tranquility is badwrong to be woefully naive in context of the fictional world.

The Possessed and The Criminal should both be Tranquilized.

And I still haven't been provided any examples of "any number of innocents" being turned Tranquil outside of Kirkwall (a Circle so far removed from "innocent" it's pathetic).

[deatharmonic]

ReggarBlane wrote...

And the guilt when finding out that the mage was innocent of whatever "crime"? Yes.

Seriously. This is a great plot device to use just for that alone. All known signs point to the mage, but the player missed some clues and performed the rite on an innocent person.

[Rinshikai10]

Brushyourteeth, Xilizhra if either of wish to discuss Justinia in greater detail I have a discussion on the Dragon age wiki if you are interested.

As far the ROT being used by the Inquisition, I don't believe that they will have the resources to do so.

Modifié par Rinshikai10, 28 septembre 2012 - 07:08 .

[LobselVith8]

Emzamination wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

History will absolve me. La historia me absolverá for the Latino blood mages out there.

Only Andraste's pyre will offer any form of absoloution to foul blood mages.Accept the sword of mercy and burn far far from the sight of the maker.Thedas has no room for such as thee.

Hmmm... I think I'll use Andraste's pyre to make some heathen s'mores for my fellow blood mages (I'm sure blood magic rituals will make them hungry), and some cookies to deal with the Qunari.

Elton John is dead wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Only Andraste's pyre will offer any form of absoloution to foul blood mages! Mankind ill needs saviors such as you! Die by the sword of mercy and burn far far from the sight of The Maker monster! You don't belong in this world!

Fix'd with Castlevania references.

Now I know Cullen's last name: Belmont.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 28 septembre 2012 - 08:04 .

[The Elder King]

Medhia Nox wrote...




@hhh89: I simply cannot excuse people are who are prone to becoming automatons for powerful malevolent creatures by saying:

"With the power of HOPE - you might not kill hundreds or thousands - NEXT time you're possessed."

EVERY mage could become possessed. The risk dies the moment the mage dies. The Harrowing proofs only that a mage was able to beat a demon, in that moment. It doesn't give a mage a power that make them resist demons.
The desire demon that possessed Connor didn't say that she'll possess Connor next time because she's sure that she'll be able to possess him (otherwise she wouldn't try to reach a deal with the Warden to leave a link between them). She said that because she possessed him once, and she didn't want to leave. But that's the same situation of every apprentice that faces the Harrowing, since the templars and the mages put him/her in the situation of facing a demon that wants to possess them.

Modifié par hhh89, 28 septembre 2012 - 07:58 .

[DPSSOC]

Plaintiff wrote...
It's arbitrary because these terms have no clear definition. We do not know the guidelines by which weakness and strength are judged in mages. An authority figure can point at any mage and say "He/she is weak! Take them to the mind-rape machine!", and that mage will never have a chance to prove themselves.

Well magical strength is actually quantifiable, as is physical strength.  Can you perform task x?  No, you're weak.  Though I think the weakness referred to with regards to the Harrowing and a mage being too weak is strength of will and character.  More difficult to quantify but not impossible.

Plaintiff wrote...
Here's a thought: maybe the mages should be taught how to combat demons, and face them prior to the Harrowing under controlled conditions with experienced mages spervising. Pretty much anything is better than throwing them blind into a test where they'll likely be killed.

Medhia Nox wrote...
@Plaintiff: That's a valid argument that I would get behind. Why nothing is ever said of The Harrowing prior to the event is confusing. I remember that "reasons" were given... but they did seem wildly dismissive reasons.

This is absolutely a mages first foray into the Fade - but we're not told why they aren't accompanied into the Fade prior to this moment to better prepare them.

Any test you can prepare for proves nothing.  It proves memorization and recitation, not understanding or ability.  Any idiot can be a genius for one hour.  Furthermore the Harrowing is intended specifically to test your ability to counter demons when you're unprepared.  They force you into the worst case scenario (weak and unprepared) to see if you can best a demon, because some day that's going to happen.  Better they find out you don't have the mettle for it now than in 30 years when you've got some real power behind you.

[LobselVith8]

Medhia Nox wrote...

===

@hhh89: I distinctly remember her saying that she will be back for Connor.

The Desire Demon only comes for Connor if The Warden made a deal with her, in exchange for something in return; if The Warden coerced her to void the contract, the Desire Demon doesn't get Connor's soul. The Epilogue for the Arl's son then leads to Connor studying at Tevinter some time after going to the Circle of Ferelden.

[Herr Uhl]

Seems to be a reasonable plot-point. Something along the lines of a rogue mage with compelling evidence of guilt for a crime (such as using up humans/dwarves/elves/Kossith in rituals) that you could a) Kill Tranquilize or c) Let go as you don't have the resources to detain him.

[LinksOcarina]

Only if Pro-Mage inquisitors can be allowed to promote free rights.

[Sable Rhapsody]

LinksOcarina wrote...

Only if Pro-Mage inquisitors can be allowed to promote free rights.

And pro-normal people inquisitors can tell the mages and templars to sit down, shut up, and have a nice pot of tea instead of killing everyone.  At the point of a sword 

[LobselVith8]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

Only if Pro-Mage inquisitors can be allowed to promote free rights.

And pro-normal people inquisitors can tell the mages and templars to sit down, shut up, and have a nice pot of tea instead of killing everyone.  At the point of a sword 

What if they prefer coffee to tea? Let's say my blood mage army prefers a nice cup of tea before starting a massacre of templars (with blood magic rituals that would make a Magister blush), having the golems I've gotten from Branka march against any enemies allied to the templars, and taunting the Qunari with delicious cookies; they might be offended that they weren't offered their beverage of choice. Is there a choice between tea and coffee? Are there any bagels or flagels offered?

[brushyourteeth]

Rinshikai10 wrote...

Brushyourteeth, Xilizhra if either of wish to discuss Justinia in greater detail I have a discussion on the Dragon age wiki if you are interested.

As far the ROT being used by the Inquisition, I don't believe that they will have the resources to do so.

I'll check it out - Thanks!!

[Sable Rhapsody]

LobselVith8 wrote...
What if they prefer coffee to tea? Let's say my blood mage army prefers a nice cup of tea before starting a massacre of templars (with blood magic rituals that would make a Magister blush), having the golems I've gotten from Branka march against any enemies allied to the templars, and taunting the Qunari with delicious cookies; they might be offended that they weren't offered their beverage of choice. Is there a choice between tea and coffee? Are there any bagels or flagels offered?

Tell ya what.  You can pick from a wonderful Orlesian breakfast buffet of drinks and snacks if the mages and templars just put a sock in it