411 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

Bligths are not easy to defeat. Granted, their span have been getting shorter but the only one that was defeated without an alliance of two or more nations was the Fifth. Unless you count Orzammar and the Dalish/Werewolves as non human nations.
And in Tevinter, Magisters like Aurelius Titus could be more interested in worshipping the Archdemon and sabotage Warden efforts.

Modifié par MisterJB, 29 septembre 2012 - 06:22 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

And he couldn't go to Meredith or any Templars with that information, because they had intentionally created a hostile environment where Mages and Templars could not work together.

Bollocks. Quentin was breakign al lthe friggin laws.
You relaly think telling Cullen about him woudl cause the entier circle to be Anulled?
That's just a pathetic excuse to not report anything...EVER.

We don't know that Orsino didn't try to stop it. Only that he didn't want the Templars involved in trying to stop it, because he couldn't trust them.

There's 0 evidence he did anything other than help Quentin.

And rightfully so, I might add. Considering the Templars of Kirkwall are 95% Alriks, Merediths, and Karrases and 5% Thrasks, Cullens, and Kerans.

Statistics pulled out of your anus are as much worth as a condom machine in Vatican.

[Sister Goldring]

I suppose that it would depend upon how the writers define the Inquistors' role and powers but I'm certainly not opposed to the idea.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Plaintiff wrote...
I'm sorry, but that rationalisation is complete nonsense.

Tests absolutely do prove understanding and ability. You learn the methods, then you practice them, then you apply them in the test to demonstrate your understanding. Yes, demonic attacks often occur unexpectedly, but a mage will be better equipped to fend those attacks off if they are taught how to. Willpower is like a muscle, it gets stronger with regular exercise. Instead of shoving their mages into a situation "weak and unprepared", they should be making their mages stronger, and teaching them how to deal with that situation when it happens.

You know what would be the only thing accomplished by the Harrowing if mages actually knew what expected them?

mage: "oh helo mister demon. You promise me power? Normally I would take your offer, but I recently found out that I'll be killed on the spot if I do that....so how about this: I'll make a pact wiht you, but dont' go possesing me now. Wait till after the harrowing. The stupid templars will think I passed and later once I go to bed, come find me then."

[Gileadan]

There's 0 evidence he did anything other than help Quentin.

There is not only zer0 evidence of him doing anything but help Quentin.
If the game's inner logic is not *totally* broken, Orsino must be the greatest blood mage in the city. The Harvester ritual is an extremely powerful spell,  and I doubt that he quickly read the instructions for the spell from a scroll while running away from Meredith. No. To get a power like that, you must be very, very advanced in the magic branch in belongs to.
Or, expressed in game mechanic terms: I suspect it's rather found at the end of the blood mage skill tree, probably outside of the scope player characters can ever reach, not at the beginning.

[Plaintiff]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
I'm sorry, but that rationalisation is complete nonsense.

Tests absolutely do prove understanding and ability. You learn the methods, then you practice them, then you apply them in the test to demonstrate your understanding. Yes, demonic attacks often occur unexpectedly, but a mage will be better equipped to fend those attacks off if they are taught how to. Willpower is like a muscle, it gets stronger with regular exercise. Instead of shoving their mages into a situation "weak and unprepared", they should be making their mages stronger, and teaching them how to deal with that situation when it happens.

You know what would be the only thing accomplished by the Harrowing if mages actually knew what expected them?

mage: "oh helo mister demon. You promise me power? Normally I would take your offer, but I recently found out that I'll be killed on the spot if I do that....so how about this: I'll make a pact wiht you, but dont' go possesing me now. Wait till after the harrowing. The stupid templars will think I passed and later once I go to bed, come find me then."

Herp derp, because every mage is tripping over themselves for the chance to lose control of their bodies and slaughter their friends!

Having powers doesn't automatically make someone a sociopath.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Plaintiff wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
You know what would be the only thing accomplished by the Harrowing if mages actually knew what expected them?

mage: "oh helo mister demon. You promise me power? Normally I would take your offer, but I recently found out that I'll be killed on the spot if I do that....so how about this: I'll make a pact wiht you, but dont' go possesing me now. Wait till after the harrowing. The stupid templars will think I passed and later once I go to bed, come find me then."

Herp derp, because every mage is tripping over themselves for the chance to lose control of their bodies and slaughter their friends!

Having powers doesn't automatically make someone a sociopath.

The derp is on you.

Knowing about the test completely renders the test pointless in the first place.

The demons don't play fair, nor by any rules. The test is there as much to weed out the weak mages and test their character as anything else.

Also, the thing with demonic pacts as such is that the one who makes heh pact always thinks he will outsmart the demon in the end (which never happens)

[Plaintiff]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
You know what would be the only thing accomplished by the Harrowing if mages actually knew what expected them?

mage: "oh helo mister demon. You promise me power? Normally I would take your offer, but I recently found out that I'll be killed on the spot if I do that....so how about this: I'll make a pact wiht you, but dont' go possesing me now. Wait till after the harrowing. The stupid templars will think I passed and later once I go to bed, come find me then."

Herp derp, because every mage is tripping over themselves for the chance to lose control of their bodies and slaughter their friends!

Having powers doesn't automatically make someone a sociopath.

The derp is on you.

Knowing about the test completely renders the test pointless in the first place.

The demons don't play fair, nor by any rules. The test is there as much to weed out the weak mages and test their character as anything else.

Also, the thing with demonic pacts as such is that the one who makes heh pact always thinks he will outsmart the demon in the end (which never happens)

Once again, you completely miss my point. I really don't know how I can make it any clearer to you.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 29 septembre 2012 - 09:25 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Plaintiff wrote...
Once again, you completely miss my point. I really don't know how I can make it any clearer to you.

It is you who are missing my point.

[Xilizhra]

Also, the thing with demonic pacts as such is that the one who makes heh pact always thinks he will outsmart the demon in the end (which never happens)

Actually, both the Warden and Hawke can gain something from a demon without losing anything in return. So this isn't really true.

As for the Harrowing... regardless of whether or not there's preparation, there should be other mages waiting to pull the apprentice out if they seem to be in dire trouble.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Lithuasil wrote...
A blight on Par Vollen would be hilarious. And I don't know if it was this thread that discussed it, but right here we have a scenario that proves that under certain circumstances, standing idly by is not only an option, but a moral obligation.

A Blight in Par Vollen would be the number one worst possible thing that could happen in Thedas. If you don't see why, then you are simply incapable of seeing beyond your own petty hatred for a society, you happen to disagree with.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Xilizhra wrote...

Also, the thing with demonic pacts as such is that the one who makes heh pact always thinks he will outsmart the demon in the end (which never happens)

Actually, both the Warden and Hawke can gain something from a demon without losing anything in return. So this isn't really true.

Their stories are not done. And how would you know anyway?

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

A Blight in Par Vollen would be the number one worst possible thing that could happen in Thedas. If you don't see why, then you are simply incapable of seeing beyond your own petty hatred for a society, you happen to disagree with.

Out of curiosity, why would it be the worst thing that could happen in Thedas? The only thing I can think of in my tired state is the lack of Grey Wardens in Seheron/Par Vollen, but I'm sure Sten learned something about how to make Grey Wardens from his time in Ferelden.

Lotion_Soronnar wrote...

Bollocks. Quentin was breakign al lthe friggin laws.
You relaly think telling Cullen about him woudl cause the entier circle to be Anulled?

Yes.

Considering that Cullen doesn't tell Meredith that the RoA called on the Mages for an act they had nothing to do with is unjustified in every possible way save for the legal chain-of-command and is bound by his duty as a Templar to relay all information he gathers to Meredith the Psycho, then I'm positive she would've called the RoA down on them all, with the rationale being "If the First Enchanter was working with a blood mage, the entire Circle is gone. He's only doing this to save his own skin"

Lotion_Soronnar wrote...

That's just a pathetic excuse to not report anything...EVER.

Actually, were this Ferelden's Circle with Gregoir in charge as well as Orsino, I would've condemned Orsino for his actions because Gregoir is a fair, firm, and ultimately reasonable man.

Ignoring his despicable -- but unfortunately canon -- portrayal in the comics, where he beats a pregnant mage simply for being pregnant.

Lotion_Soronnar wrote...

There's 0 evidence he did anything other than help Quentin.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Lotion_Soronnar wrote...

Statistics pulled out of your anus are as much worth as a condom machine in Vatican.

While I do like that remark -- it gave me a good laugh -- look at the facts.

1) All of the Templars like Thrask and Keran were part of the rebellion against Meredith and her like-minded cronies. This rebellion failed -- due to plot-stupidity for pro-mage paths -- and they were all either killed or (temporarily at best) suspended from the Templar Order, as Cullen will tell you.

2) All of the remaining Templars carried out an order to Annul the Circle for an act they had nothing to do with, failing to mention to Meredith how unjustified the act was. That is a clear indication to me that any Templar who stains their hands with the blood of innocents and fails to tell Meredith of the foolishness of what she's doing -- as well as it being unethical -- is not only a complete monster, but too dumb to live anyway.

If they can't see that the Circle is innocent, that there is no mob yet, that even if one does form Meredith is doing the politically stupid move by catering to said mob when the perpetrator of the act submitted himself to justice, and go through with killing Mages... then they're monsters like Alrik and Karras and as dumb as how Bioware handled the Mage-Templar plot in DAII.

And if they do see all of it and still go through with, then they're still idiots and monsters like Alrik and Karras.

So their deaths are a blessing to Thedas, really.

[Lotion Soronarr]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Lotion_Soronnar wrote...

Bollocks. Quentin was breakign al lthe friggin laws.
You relaly think telling Cullen about him woudl cause the entier circle to be Anulled?

Yes.

Considering that Cullen doesn't tell Meredith that the RoA called on the Mages for an act they had nothing to do with is unjustified in every possible way save for the legal chain-of-command and is bound by his duty as a Templar to relay all information he gathers to Meredith the Psycho, then I'm positive she would've called the RoA down on them all, with the rationale being "If the First Enchanter was working with a blood mage, the entire Circle is gone. He's only doing this to save his own skin"

No.

You're basicly using a blanket excuse to justify everything - no mage reporting anything.

And you can't know for sure what Meridith would have done, so that argument is null and void.

Lotion_Soronnar wrote...
There's 0 evidence he did anything other than help Quentin.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

We have evidence of him helping quanting and keeping it quiet. That is enough evidence of his guilt.
I'm sorry, but your defense wouldnt pass in any court in the world.

Lotion_Soronnar wrote...
Statistics pulled out of your anus are as much worth as a condom machine in Vatican.

While I do like that remark -- it gave me a good laugh -- look at the facts.
- SNIP-

Your statistics are still pulled out of your anus. You use two events to come to a broad, geneeralized conclusion WITHOUT actual numbers to back it up and peddle it as a fact.

If they can't see that the Circle is innocent, that there is no mob yet, that even if one does form Meredith is doing the politically stupid move by catering to said mob when the perpetrator of the act submitted himself to justice, and go through with killing Mages... then they're monsters like Alrik and Karras and as dumb as how Bioware handled the Mage-Templar plot in DAII.

Politicly stupid move? Quite the opposite.

First of all, it's comepletely reasonable to assume the Circle is beyond saving - or that it's not worth saving. Ironicly Anders has little to do with it, but he was just the final straw.
The question doesn't  become "are there innocent mages", but rather "can we allow any abomination or blood mage to to slip our grasp?" So you cut your losses and anull the Circle. It is a cold, calculated move, yes. But not really stupid.

Also, just because Anders said that he did it alone, why do you think anyone should believe him?

I'm quite sure Oswald was wroking alone when he killed Kennedy too. After all, that's what he said...and assasins always speak the truth.

[TEWR]

We have evidence of him helping quanting and keeping it quiet. That is enough evidence of his guilt.

We have evidence of him secretly collaborating with a blood mage as an unwitting accomplice to the latter's crimes. We have evidence of him keeping this knowledge away from the Templars.

While he is guilty of being an unwitting accomplice, we do not know for certain if he kept letting Quentin rum amok or was trying his own methods at bringing him down, without involving the Templars.

Yes, we don't know that he was doing anything either. I'm not trying to say he was or wasn't. Only that we don't know, and as such, we can leave it headcanon.

I'm sorry, but your defense wouldnt pass in any court in the world.

Are you a lawyer?

Frankly, there are times when some really crappy cases do pass in courts in the world.

Your statistics are still pulled out of your anus. You use two events to come to a broad, geneeralized conclusion WITHOUT actual numbers to back it up and peddle it as a fact.

Thrask and Tobrius will both state in Act 1 that the Order has become far less inclusive of people that treat Mages fairly and has become increasingly anti-Mage with more and more Templars like Karras.

Politicly stupid move? Quite the opposite.

Catering to a mob only makes them grow bolder. It's happening today in our own nation with what the President is doing to certain groups of people protesting various things.

But that's not a topic I want to delve into, as it will lock the thread and possibly get me banned.

Suffice to say, she can't give in to what a mob wants. That makes her look weak and if she wants the Templars to retain their power makes the Order look like its influence in Kirkwall is waning, even with her in the Viscount's seat.

Besides, all of this is moot as it was just some lame excuse she concocted on a whim to justify her anti-mage slaughtering of the Circle -- something she'd wanted to do since the beginning of Act 3.

Also, just because Anders said that he did it alone, why do you think anyone should believe him?

Because, you know, Hawke can say he did?

The extent of what Hawke did was equivalent to plausible deniabilty, more or less. He was an unwitting accomplice in what Anders did, yes, but Anders made sure that Hawke was also able to deny having anything to do with the setting of the bomb.

Granted, I doubt Thedosian law would recognize such things due to the time period it is set in. It's not really going to operate on modern law.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 29 septembre 2012 - 08:16 .

[thats1evildude]

I just wanna note that Orsino's letter to Quentin clearly states that he provided Quentin with books. He did that much, at least, to help Quentin with his research.

"I have obtained the books you requested. I'll leave them at our usual hiding spot. Please collect them as soon as possible. I would hate to see them in the wrong hands!"

Modifié par thats1evildude, 29 septembre 2012 - 08:21 .

[TEWR]

thats1evildude wrote...

I just wanna note that Orsino's letter to Quentin clearly states that he provided Quentin with books. He did that much, at least, to help Quentin with his research.

"I have obtained the books you requested. I'll leave them at our usual hiding spot. Please collect them as soon as possible. I would hate to see them in the wrong hands!"

I'll post what I said to brushyourteeth on the previous page when this came up.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Unwitting accomplice. I'm sure that Quentin's notes to his friend Orsino sounded sane and talked about trying to perform anatomical studies of the human body so as to see if there was a way to bring back people that died using blood magic.

Since, you know, that's Quentin's entire MO.

That doesn't necessarily mean the notes were talking about murdering people for their bodies. The books themselves might've had such knowledge in them and Quentin only had a few things to go off of from his time in the Starkhaven Circle. I doubt Orsino would've knowingly assisted a man he knew was going to be a murderer, since he's against murder.

And the research and notes/letters he sent Orsino -- which we're not sure what it said specifically -- seemed to point to it being possible, to which the FE probably endorsed it because he was led to believe such a thing and then gave him whatever books the Circle had on the subject.

Based on Orsino's statements in both types of playthroughs, it seems extremely likely that Orsino received the Harvester ritual long after whatever other notes he received from Quentin, and that's when he cut off all ties to Quentin due to realizing just what Quentin was doing.

But due to the hostile nature of the Templar Order within Kirkwall, he could not go to the Templars for assistance without bringing damnation upon all of his charges. And so he was quite seriously caught between a rock and a hard place.

He has unknowingly helped a serial killer Mage in Kirkwall, and can do little to nothing to try and bring him down. If he wants to try something, it has to be kept from the Templars so they don't punish the rest of the Mages -- as the Templars have been doing since Meredith came to power.

[thats1evildude]

Speculation at best, Ethereal. If Quentin was hiding the nature of his research from Orsino, why would he give him the ritual to create a Harvester? That's like trying to hide an affair from your wife and then wiping your mouth with your mistress' panties at dinner.

And if Orsino thought Quentin's research was entirely innocent, why the need for such secrecy? Why worry about the books falling into the wrong hands?

Modifié par thats1evildude, 29 septembre 2012 - 08:36 .

[Dave of Canada]

"Mm... so if you take bodies, merge together using blood magic, you can create a powerful flesh-beast? Fascinating! Why, Quentin, what legitimate way did you achieve such powerful magic? Read a book, perhaps asked a senior enchanter-turned-apostate?"
"The bodies tell all."
"Oh! A book of anatomy, that's great! I hadn't considered to look into such a great treasury of knowledge."
"I just need a head to... hehehehehe..."
"You need a head researcher, you say? I'll get you in contact with the finest of apostates I know, Quentin! You are a great scholar, it would be a shame you worked on your own."
"I use blood magic."
"Yes, quite right. I'm pretty sure that's exactly what blood mages would say, quite despicable."

[TEWR]

thats1evildude wrote...

Speculation at best, Ethereal. If Quentin was hiding the nature of his research from Orsino, why would he give him the ritual to create a Harvester? That's like trying to hide an affair from your wife and then wiping your mouth with your mistress' panties at dinner.

And if Orsino thought Quentin's research was entirely innocent, why the need for such secrecy? Why worry about the books falling into the wrong hands?

To the first, well... perhaps Quentin sent them to Orsino because he thought Orsino would enjoy it? I dunno.

To the second, because the tomes are blood magic tomes and property of the Circle of Kirkwall. Necromancy derives itself from blood magic.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 29 septembre 2012 - 09:07 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

We have evidence of him helping quanting and keeping it quiet. That is enough evidence of his guilt.

We have evidence of him secretly collaborating with a blood mage as an unwitting accomplice to the latter's crimes. We have evidence of him keeping this knowledge away from the Templars.

While he is guilty of being an unwitting accomplice, we do not know for certain if he kept letting Quentin rum amok or was trying his own methods at bringing him down, without involving the Templars.

Yes, we don't know that he was doing anything either. I'm not trying to say he was or wasn't. Only that we don't know, and as such, we can leave it headcanon.

You have no evidence of him being unwitting.

Face it - in any court today Osrino would be convicted.

I'm sorry, but your defense wouldnt pass in any court in the world.

Are you a lawyer?

Not myself, but half of my familiy is. You tend ot learn a lot of stuff about law, wether you want it or not.

Your statistics are still pulled out of your anus. You use two events to come to a broad, geneeralized conclusion WITHOUT actual numbers to back it up and peddle it as a fact.

Thrask and Tobrius will both state in Act 1 that the Order has become far less inclusive of people that treat Mages fairly and has become increasingly anti-Mage with more and more Templars like Karras.

They don't give any numbers.
You give numbers. You say "95%". Show me something from the game that backs it.

Also, those are their impressions, to be taken with a grain of salt.

Politicly stupid move? Quite the opposite.

Catering to a mob only makes them grow bolder. It's happening today in our own nation with what the President is doing to certain groups of people protesting various things.

Doing what the populace wants won't lead to widespread rebellion.
Opposing them will.

Also, just because Anders said that he did it alone, why do you think anyone should believe him?

Because, you know, Hawke can say he did?

What would Hawke know?

[TEWR]

Lotion_Soronnar wrote...

Face it - in any court today Osrino would be convicted.

If he were being tried in today's courts a proper investigation would've been enacted to look for Quentin when he was just starting his killing spree, we'd use DNA to match up the victims to their identities, and we'd actually know the majority of the facts -- if not all of them -- regarding Orsino's relationship with Quentin.

Saying "he'd be convicted in today's courts" is a crock, because it's basically using what limited information we do have -- which I'd say isn't even enough to build a reliable case to prosecute with -- to say he'd always be convicted, while ignoring what we don't know.

Lotion_Soronnar wrote...

Not myself, but half of my familiy is. You tend ot learn a lot of stuff about law, wether you want it or not.

Then we are alike, as much of my family are/were lawyers, cops, army/Coast Guard, etc. I've also taken a paralegal course, so I have a familiarity with the legal system.

I happened to hate the course though, even if I did well in it.

At any rate, we're not going to see eye-to-eye on this matter, so we should probably just agree to disagree.

They don't give any numbers.

At this moment I think you're not understanding the point I was trying to make and you're instead just focusing on numbers that were being used to illustrate said point. My underlying point was that the Order in Kirkwall has far too many people like Karras and Alrik and not enough people like Thrask and Keran to help give it some fair weight.

Essentially, there are far too many Templars who persecute the Mages rather then the ones that actually do their jobs.

Lotion_Soronnar wrote...

Doing what the populace wants won't lead to widespread rebellion.
Opposing them will.

I believe you misunderstood my use of the word "bolder" and took it to mean that the mob would then rebel instantaneously.

That is not so.

What I meant was that the populus would've seen that Meredith is acquiescing to their demands, thus weakening her influence in the city-state. The people would then come together at future points, stronger in both numbers and mindset. And they would keep it up until Meredith acquiesced again.

Rinse and repeat, until the Order has no influence in the city-state and is left as powerful as Dumar was -- which is to say, not powerful at all.

There wouldn't be a rebellion. But from a political standpoint, Meredith would kill any remaining influence she had in the city-state -- as it was rapidly decreasing, as we see with Ser Marlein Selbrech's quest and the nobility always remarking on how noble families are helping Mages, regardless of which side Hawke takes in the opening argument.

Lotion_Soronnar wrote...

What would Hawke know?

When it comes to his companions, he's not completely brain dead. And Anders was working alone. There's absolutely nothing to suggest he was working with anyone, since the Mage Underground was destroyed and Anders cut off all ties with the remaining Mages that managed to escape -- since they turned to blood magic, something he detests as it only makes Meredith seem right in the eyes of the people.

[brushyourteeth]

thats1evildude wrote...

Speculation at best, Ethereal. If Quentin was hiding the nature of his research from Orsino, why would he give him the ritual to create a Harvester? That's like trying to hide an affair from your wife and then wiping your mouth with your mistress' panties at dinner.

And if Orsino thought Quentin's research was entirely innocent, why the need for such secrecy? Why worry about the books falling into the wrong hands?

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

A Blight in Par Vollen would be the number one worst possible thing that could happen in Thedas. If you don't see why, then you are simply incapable of seeing beyond your own petty hatred for a society, you happen to disagree with.

Out of curiosity, why would it be the worst thing that could happen in Thedas? The only thing I can think of in my tired state is the lack of Grey Wardens in Seheron/Par Vollen, but I'm sure Sten learned something about how to make Grey Wardens from his time in Ferelden.

The Qunari have no Grey Wardens to stop the Blight, so not only would it be allowed to grow in power and number unchecked, it would do so on Kossith broodmothers. The Blight would eventually move on from Par Vollen, and whatever country next on the line, would be overrun from the sheer number of Ogres. Ogres are one of the most powerful creatures in Thedas, and they are thankfully rare, due to the limited contact Darkspawn have with Kossith. With a Blight in Par Vollen, that limited contact would be "corrected" and suddenly the primary Darkspawn in the Blight would be Ogres. Not a good thing. Not a good thing at all.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 30 septembre 2012 - 11:22 .