411 réponses à ce sujet

[Emzamination]

Filament wrote...

Yes, and I would also like to annul the dwarves, and the elves.

I'd call that racist but the dwarves and elves willingly worship false deities so I can see how an exalted march might be needed to correct them in the near future.

[AndrahilAdrian]

absolutely. There should always be an evil path.

[Lotion Soronarr]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Lotion_Soronnar wrote...

Face it - in any court today Osrino would be convicted.

Saying "he'd be convicted in today's courts" is a crock, because it's basically using what limited information we do have -- which I'd say isn't even enough to build a reliable case to prosecute with -- to say he'd always be convicted, while ignoring what we don't know.

Replace "todays court" with "any normal court".
You use what you have.

At this moment I think you're not understanding the point I was trying to make and you're instead just focusing on numbers that were being used to illustrate said point. My underlying point was that the Order in Kirkwall has far too many people like Karras and Alrik and not enough people like Thrask and Keran to help give it some fair weight.

Which again, you have a hard time supporting given that the gime doesn't give us any numbers.
If oyu say 95% of templars are evil, then back it up or don't say it. Even as a hyperbole.

Lotion_Soronnar wrote...

Doing what the populace wants won't lead to widespread rebellion.
Opposing them will.

I believe you misunderstood my use of the word "bolder" and took it to mean that the mob would then rebel instantaneously.

That is not so.

What I meant was that the populus would've seen that Meredith is acquiescing to their demands, thus weakening her influence in the city-state. The people would then come together at future points, stronger in both numbers and mindset. And they would keep it up until Meredith acquiesced again.

OR they would see Meredith as just and caring for the populace, making her more popular, solidifying her power even more.
You see only one outcome, thinking it as a one way street.
Politics is not a simple buisness.

Lotion_Soronnar wrote...
What would Hawke know?

When it comes to his companions, he's not completely brain dead. And Anders was working alone. There's absolutely nothing to suggest he was working with anyone, since the Mage Underground was destroyed and Anders cut off all ties with the remaining Mages that managed to escape -- since they turned to blood magic, something he detests as it only makes Meredith seem right in the eyes of the people.

Again, what would Hawke know? Anders doesn't fully confide in him anyway..and he might deliberately keep things from him. Anders said he was working alone. But there's nothing to confirm that.

And why would anyone believe that Hawk knows what he's talking about?

[Lotion Soronarr]

What irks me is this notion by mage-supporters that all templars are guilty for everything and all mages are innocent of everything. Guilt by association only exist in their heads for templars.

Mage was raped? All templars share blame. They should have known.
Mage was killed? All templars share blame.
Mage was tranquiled? All templars share blame. They should never allow that practice.
Etc, etc... Repeat Ad Nauseum. And they are quite happy to claim that without any proof whatsoever that other templars knew or could have stopped it, or wihout any better alternative.

Well, two can play at that game. I postulate that ALL mages share blame for whatever one of htheir ilk does. A mage learns blood magic? A mage breaks any Circle rule?
all mages are to blame, because they should have known and they should have stopped or reported him. They MUST have known.
Heck, we have more evidence of this than we have the other way around. I a mage from a Circle goes bad - dammit he's living with a hunderd other mages his whole life and you're telling me not one of them noticed anything? Really?
Then we have Orsino and his support of a known blood mage.

Hell, Meredith was right.
The Right of Annulment was the right choice, because the Circle was already beyond saving. The rampant blood magic and Orsino going all harvester proved that.

[Plaintiff]

Too bad that Meredith was so incompetent and paranoid that she wouldn't actually know a blood mage if one walked up and slapped her in the face. Too busy searching for maleficar under her bed to actually deal with the legitimate threats plaguing Kirkwall and its surroundings.

[Dave of Canada]

Most of it's problems happened to be blood mages and most of her fears were proven true when push came to shove.

[Plaintiff]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Most of it's problems happened to be blood mages and most of her fears were proven true when push came to shove.

I disagree. Kirkwall's biggest problem, far bigger than the others combined, was Meredith herself.

I don't dispute the fact that there were blood mages, obviously there were a lot. And despite Meredith's claim of devotion to her duty, she was doing jack-all about them, instead focussing on tyrannising the ordinary citizens of Kirkwall, who by rights should not be under her jurisdiction. Because she was busy harrassing innocents, the maleficar had the free run of the city.

If Elthina had done her job, if the Divine had done her job, if the Chantry actually respected Kirkwall's secular authority like it was supposed to, Meredith would've been reined in long ago and replaced with someone actually competent, and then Hawke wouldn't be running around mopping up all her mess.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 01 octobre 2012 - 07:29 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

The mages are to blame. All of them. For everything.

And, and how was Meredith tyrannising the ordinary citizens? Please, give me an example.

[Plaintiff]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The mages are to blame. All of them. For everything.

And, and how was Meredith tyrannising the ordinary citizens? Please, give me an example.

By barging into the role of Viscount and refusing to allow the nobility to elect a new ruler, as is their right.

By trying to bully Aveline into yielding control of the city guard over to the Templar Order.

By threatening Hawke's family and friends if he refused to do her bidding.

The mages didn't make Meredith a gibbering moron who repeatedly fails at her job. That's all on her.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 01 octobre 2012 - 08:04 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

I'm a bit fuzzy on the details regarding the Viscout election...but IIRC, that thing can go several ways. From Hawke becomign Viscont to Meredith taking temporary control (which ends up lasting)

Threateting Hawkes family? Hardly a crime. Hawke is an apostate run amok.

Either way, Meredith being crazy doesn't change the fact that mages are even craizer and unredeemable.
Even Meredith being 100% sane wouldn't have changed anything. Mages would still be crazed blood mages.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Even Meredith being 100% sane wouldn't have changed anything. Mages would still be crazed blood mages.

Certainly there are always mages who are whackjobs no matter what the system.  But that's true of templars as well.  You can never completely eliminate crazy, psychotic people.  

Meredith being 100% sane would've driven fewer mages to desperate measures.  It's a pretty common phemonenon IRL too--back someone into a corner, and s/he will eventually kick back.  I'm not sure it would've changed the ending since Anders was a whackjob too, but it certainly would've changed the tone of Act 3.

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 01 octobre 2012 - 08:22 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

I say claim it wouldn't.

I claim that the Circle in Kirkwall was arleady too far gone, as evidenced by Orsino and many other mages.
Anulment is the only rational choice.

[Dave of Canada]

Most of the mages weren't rational at all, the Circle in Kirkwall was too far gone. Blood Mages roamed the streets, there was an entire gang of blood mages which prowled the streets and used thralls as thugs, those who worked with Grace were mostly possessed / blood mages.

Hell, the First Enchanter himself atleast had a firm grasp of the basics of blood magic because he did turn into the Harvester after sacrificing his peers (or using their bodies, depending) for the ritual.

Perhaps there would've been less blood mages but I'd say it wouldn't have been noticible, we had mage extremists fanning the flames and the Templar were cracking down due to mages getting worst (which forced them to get worse, causing escalation).

[Lotion Soronarr]

I think turning into a Harvester requires more than just a basic grasp..that's soem advanced s*** right there.

Also, if mages kept their eyes open and actually reported their criminal bretheren, then there wouldn't be so many blood mages running around in the first place, now would there?

Hence, why all mages in the Circels are guilty of being accomplices. They knew.
They friggin knew.

[TEWR]

I will state that I find the Resolutionists of Kirkwall do bear blame, but only for exacerbating the tensions of Kirkwall. They never created it. That was the work of Meredith and her like-minded cronies, as the anti-Mage agenda of Kirkwall's Circle began immediately when she took control of them.

A person as psychologically damaged as she was when she was young should never have risen through the ranks of the Order, let alone be recruited in it.

As Varric notes, Meredith began squeezing the mages even harder after Dumar's death. This resulted in the Mages resisting, to which she squeezed more and more. Rinse and repeat.

Meredith took control of the Templars in 9:21 Dragon unofficially, and was officially elevated to her position in 9:23 Dragon. We know from Thrask that she immediately began instituting anti-mage policies on the Circle, restricting what they could do.

We know that First Enchanter Orsino was First Enchanter as early as 9:26 Dragon, and his character is a person who stands up for the Mages because of what the Templars would do, as two codexes tell us. The codex on the Staff of Violation tells us that his mindset on standing up to the Templars -- prior to the unjustified Annulment which forced him and others into performing desperate acts, possibly even destroying their sanity -- is exactly like that of the very first First Enchanter Kirkwall's Circle had: Casimira.

And that it was through Casimira's perseverance in the face of such Templars that the Circle was allowed to continue on and not be rendered a House of Tranquil or Annulled.

As of 9:29 Dragon, his disputes with Meredith have become known to the public on a greater scale, no doubt due to her increasing policies restricting Mage activities.

By 9:34 Dragon, Meredith had acquired a broken idol -- that by what we know is far more potent then when it was intact -- and was lost to it immediately, because we can hear rumors that she has begun to act very strangely as early as Act 2.

By Act 3, she has assumed the seat of the Viscount and denied the nobility their sovereign right to elect a new Viscount. She declares that only she is fit for its role, and if anyone tells her otherwise they are wrong. If Hawke tells her to step down, she'll say "No". If Hawke says he will be the new Viscount, she says she won't let that happen -- which is somewhat justifiable for a Mage Hawke, but isn't justifiable for her retaining the position.

The role of the Templars is that of protector to Mage and non-Mage, not as a person who has any say over the political spectrum of a city-state/nation. It's the role of the Templars to give up such ties if they're from a noble lineage and to never go after such a position -- as we see with Ser Irminric, who gave up his ties to the lands Alfstanna now watches over.

By Act 3, she is now sending her people to the City Guard demanding that they let the Templars oversee their actions due to "lack of sufficient leadership". She has no authority over them and should not be pressuring them to acquiesce to her authority. Funnily enough, she has vehemently denied the City Guard access to even a few Templars to help patrol the city in Act 2. Aveline has made the request -- no doubt due to the malicious maleficarum and Abominations that exist on Kirkwall's darkened streets -- but they refused to help.

They were ignoring their duties in Act 2. Their duty -- part of it -- is to protect the populus of Kirkwall from the dangers of magic. And yet they chose to focus on the Mages, due to the Templars of Kirkwall being comprised of more people that absolutely despise mages and magic then people that are of a sound moral state of being -- as Carver's codex tells us, if he's made a Templar.

If Hawke's a non-Mage and Bethany's in the Circle, Meredith makes mention of her and though her reasoning for doing so is that Bethany is a good example of what a Mage should be -- which is true -- I have high doubts that she was bringing her up for that reason. It seems far more likely, given how she was lost to the idol through all of Act 3, that she was veiling a threat against Bethany.

Which, as we find out in Act 3, has been happening to the Dalish as well. Chantry priests and Templars were coming to their camp and telling them to convert or die, in poorly veiled fashion.

Never mind how her Templars burned and killed a Dalish child without being reprimanded -- unless Hawke intervenes -- with the Templar that did it saying she doesn't care at all whether the Elves live or die.

Oh, and Meredith personally sent out roving death-squads -- called such by the journal, written in a third person omniscient perspective -- that were going to kill a citizen of Kirkwall simply for feeding her starving and badly whipped mage relative.

And if you want to believe they weren't a death squad, the Templars killed the friends and family of a Mage if you do The Last Holdouts. Finally, Ser Mettin wanted to slaughter the people that surrendered to him and was ready to attack the Champion of Kirkwall and his fellow Templars if they didn't stand with him. And he still does that in A Noble Agenda, because the Champion would be a witness to his deeds -- and murdering a civilian is grounds for a Templar to be ousted from the Order, as How to Frame a Templar informs us.

You can't protect the city if you're also persecuting them.

Out of all of this, Meredith is clearly the instigator of the tensions that started in Kirkwall, stemming as far back as when she took control. They only began to come to a boil after Dumar's death, as he was the only person keeping the peace -- as best he could with his powerless title.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

If oyu say 95% of templars are evil, then back it up or don't say it. Even as a hyperbole.

And while he is certain that regulating the Circle is as much about protecting mages as it is controlling them, he has seen disturbing abuses of power. The purpose he has found in service is strained by the blind hate some of his superiors possess. There is good work to be done, but the path is more winding than he had imagined.

This clearly states that Carver's superiors -- some, anyway -- are those that abuse their power. And yet, he doesn't report them, thus allowing them to continue. More importantly then that, it -- along with Cullen's codex and her incompetence to reign in Ser Alrik or tacit but unofficial approval of what he was doing -- showcases how Meredith promotes Templars that hold an extreme view on Mages as opposed to those that want to do their duty.

Ser Mettin, Ser Karras, Ser Alrik, Cullen, the Dalish child-killer, the one that will kill Hawke in The Midnight Meeting*, all of the mook Templars that stood with these people during their deeds... all of them hold exteme views on Mages, and only Cullen can be called a moderate because his extreme views are justified and he still recognizes boundaries/has growing concerns in Act 3 over whether he's serving the ideals of the Order or simply Meredith's paranoid delusions and anti-mage agenda.

*She'll kill Hawke even if he never initiated a conflict, but Karras did.
 
Add into that the deaths of the people like Thrask and Keran in Best Served Cold, the remainder of them being suspended from duty, the fact that six years prior Thrask and Tobrius both state that the Circle has become less mage-friendly then it was before, and the unjustified Annulment that was carried out and I have enough to say that yes, the Templars of Kirkwall are more anti-mage then ethical/moral/pro-mage-with-limits.

So numbers be damned. It was hyperbole. I have more then enough evidence to say that the Order in Kirkwall has more bigots and monsters like Alrik then people like Thrask. I don't need the exact numbers.

And what's worse is that the Chantry condones these abuses, saying that it's a price that must be paid for the security the Templars provide -- see here

Lotion_Soronnar wrote...

You use what you have

And you find out more, to ascertain the truth. Lawyers -- specifically, prosecutors -- don't stop looking for the truth during a case. They'll often pursue more leads using the police -- who would be the City Guard and Templars for Kirkwall -- to be able to make a better case.

Lotion_Soronnar wrote...

OR they would see Meredith as just and caring for the populace, making her more popular, solidifying her power even more.

Yeah, because that worked out soooo well for the Warden-Commander that gives the rioters food. Oh wait... it didn't.

Should a mob form, the actions Meredith should've undertaken was that of the person who actually obeys the law, both ethically and obviously legally.

She has the City Guard to assist her Templars, and they are supposed to keep law and order. If in the unlikely event a mob did form and a rebellion happened, then they would keep order by doing whatever was necessary.

You see only one outcome, thinking it as a one way street.
Politics is not a simple buisness.

Of course not, but this matter is a simple business.

They were innocent. The culprit had submitted himself to justice. And no mob had formed yet, if it was going to at all. The bomb blew up in the middle of the night -- as Anders will state on the Rivalry path and as the game itself illustrates -- when everybody was asleep.

They would come out and wonder what the hell happened. Meredith could spin any story she wanted. She could tell them the truth and that Anders, an apostate mage, bombed the Chantry and that the Circle had no part in it. She could tell them he would walk the hangman's noose, and since she's the commander of the largest army in Kirkwall they would have to relent., lest she be forced to put a rebellion down as she did before.

Considering her influence and support was minimal at best, I very much doubt that the people who were actively opposing her and being murdered by her goons would then go full-reverse and call for the Mages of the Circle to be killed, when the mage that did it hasn't been a part of the Circle for over 7 years.

Especially since the people would come out and more then likely view the smoke that rose into Kirkwall's air from the remains of the Chantry as a Qunari attack, due to the invasion that happened 3 years prior and the envoys that were sent by the Qunari in Act 3.

Lotion_Soronnar wrote...

Guilt by association only exist in their heads for templars.

Probably because of the following:

1) The Templars are a military Order and are supposed to keep themselves in check.
2) They don't keep themselves in check, and the Seekers failed to investigate Kirkwall until.... 3 years after the RoA.
3) They're comprised of fanatical zealots.
4) They hold the lives of the Mages in their hands, whereas the words of a Mage are worse less then a pile of **** unless they're condemning other Mages.

The Mages aren't a military order. They are an isolated community, little more then servants to the Chantry and Templars. They are watched, always having to face the possibility that some nutjob in charge will call down the RoA on them.

In an ideal setting, yes the Mages would help the Templars. And this would happen without (severe) consequence to the Mages. But the Order has shown that it's not capable of doing that. Every time something has happened in Kirkwall, be it from the actions of a Circle Mage or an apostate, the Order of Kirkwall has seen fit to punish all the Mages for the actions of a few.

Is it any wonder they decide to keep it to themselves, when they're put in a lose-lose scenario? If they help, they're punished. If they don't help, they're punished.

And that link I posted above cites the Templars as having an ever-expanding gap between oppressor and champion of fairness, security, and order.

Face it. The ideals of the Order are sound, but their methods, their recruitment, and their current state are not. The Order -- and indeed, the Circle -- must be reformed to such a degree where both sides can do what must be done: provide freedom and security -- in limited form for the mages and with Templar presence, but still there.

Dave of Canada wrote...

Most of it's problems happened to be blood mages and most of her fears were proven true when push came to shove.

Fearing a monster under your bed and creating that monster doesn't prove one right. All it does is prove one is oblivious to what can happen.

The Mages were pushed into desperate acts by the unjustified RoA, all so they wouldn't be killed for an act they had nothing to do with. Should they have bent their knees to their soon-to-be murderers, pleading for mercy? The most likely thing that would've happened, given the circumstances, was that they would've been killed.

And what would that accomplish? They would've died as mere dogs to the Chantry.

Sure, Cullen will opt for the 3 mages that surrender to be spared and they will be, but that's not something he can guarantee full Circle. He isn't everywhere, and Mages are being killed left and right, whether they're fighting or not.

And 3 mages doesn't mean much, especially when Gaider said they'll be made Tranquil. Which... is just a crueler form of death.

Lotion_Soronnar wrote...

Hawke is an apostate run amok.

With the Grand Cleric of Kirkwall being fine with it.

Elthina's position trumps that of Meredith's. Meredith cannot threaten a person with the Circle if the Grand Cleric is content with said person having legitimately earned their spot of freedom.

Like... you know... Wilhelm of Ferelden.

Lotion_Soronnar wrote...

From Hawke becomign Viscont to Meredith taking temporary control (which ends up lasting)

Incorrect. Hawke only becomes Viscount if he sides with the Templars at the end -- since the Templars are the ones who unofficially put someone on the throne, as Bran states.

Meredith always dies in the endgame, but during the whole of Act 3 she was the would-be Viscount, keeping anyone and everyone from electing a new official Viscount.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Qunari have no Grey Wardens to stop the Blight, so not only would it be allowed to grow in power and number unchecked, it would do so on Kossith broodmothers. The Blight would eventually move on from Par Vollen, and whatever country next on the line, would be overrun from the sheer number of Ogres. Ogres are one of the most powerful creatures in Thedas, and they are thankfully rare, due to the limited contact Darkspawn have with Kossith. With a Blight in Par Vollen, that limited contact would be "corrected" and suddenly the primary Darkspawn in the Blight would be Ogres. Not a good thing. Not a good thing at all.

Ah, so I was more or less in the right frame of mind for why it'd be bad.

But they have cannons, magic, and explosives. Also, saar-qamek, which might have an effect on the Darkspawn. I think they'd be able to blast away the Darkspawn easily, even if they couldn't end the Blight.

Though yes, Ogres may become more prevalent as a result of it, even with the fact that all Qunari -- women, children, men -- would fight the Darkspawn with whatever they had at hand if they were forced to -- pitchforks, smithing equipment, etc.

Eventually though, the Wardens would make their way to the islands, as they'd immediately know it was a Blight once the Archdemon was awakened.

Still, I would hope that the Qunari learned from Sten the method of creating Grey Wardens, or alternatively the Wardens went to the Qunari lands in the hopes of meeting with the Triumvirate and establishing a Warden outpost on the islands of Seheron and Par Vollen.

[Sable Rhapsody]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
A person as psychologically damaged as she was when she was young should never have risen through the ranks of the Order, let alone be recruited in it.

True.  But how often do we get actual effective, mentally stable authority figures in BioWare games?

I would've found the "it's all the mages' fault" argument more tenable if a Knight-Commander like Greagior were in charge, and all that blood magic still happened.  He wasn't exactly the friendliest dude, but he knew his duties and never overstepped his bounds.  He seizes on the PC's intervention as a last-ditch chance to avoid performing the Rite, even if the PC is a horrible little brat to him and his men.

Meredith set the tone for the Kirkwall templars, recruiting either the like-minded or the easily cowed.   I don't think she was a horrible person, at least not until she was corrupted by the idol, but she had no business sitting in that position of power.

Though Orsino isn't exactly a paragon of virtue either.  And let's not even start with Anders.  Does Kirkwall get all these folks from the same loony bin or something?

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 02 octobre 2012 - 08:23 .

[TEWR]

He wasn't exactly the friendliest dude, but he knew his duties and never overstepped his bounds

In the games, at least. In the comics he beat a pregnant mage, and that's unfortunately canon.

Still, he seems to have mellowed out over the years.

Though Orsino isn't exactly a paragon of virtue either

I'd dispute that.

Well, I've been disputing that. I do see him as a paragon of virtue who was, to great lament, an unwitting accomplice to murders most foul.

He's not against working with the Templars or the Circle -- as he makes it clear to an aggressive Hawke that he doesn't know enough about why the Mages are going out at night to justify going to the Templars, without also making every Mage a target of an investigation.

He didn't know if they were using blood magic or just trying to enjoy the midnight air due to Meredith confining the Mages to the Gallows.

He just wants a place where he can lay his head down at night and not fear that a sword will be jammed in his kidneys because of some nutjob.

[Sable Rhapsody]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
I'd dispute that.

Well, I've been disputing that. I do see him as a paragon of virtue who was, to great lament, an unwitting accomplice to murders most foul.

His codex entry says he wasn't exactly qualified to be First Enchanter.  And for all his protests to the contrary, I think he could've done a lot more to dissuade his charges from turning to blood magic.  If he needs Hawke just to figure out what his mages are up to, than either they don't trust him or he just doesn't want to personally handle the trouble brewing under his nose.  Which is his responsibility as First Enchanter.

Though again, I don't think anyone involved in the templar/mage mess was blameless.  And I don't think they completely hopped over the moral event horizon until the end of Act 3.  Up until that point, there was something sympathetic about each of them.  Past that point, I just wanted to shake them all until the teeth rattled out of their heads 

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 02 octobre 2012 - 08:47 .

[TEWR]

His codex entry says he wasn't exactly qualified to be First Enchanter

It doesn't say that, actually. It says people believe that his merit didn't grant him the job, but the fact that no one else wanted it.

It doesn't say that he wasn't capable for the role. Only that his merit for the role isn't what comes to peoples' minds when they talk about how he got it.

If he needs Hawke just to figure out what his mages are up to

He couldn't leave the Gallows. Meredith had forbidden him from doing anything outside of the Gallows, which was where all of this was happening.

Bear in mind, however, that Best Served Cold in the form we got it makes no sense for a pro-Mage Hawke. It wasn't bad conceptually, but how it was handled -- ultimately stemming back to how Act of Mercy was handled -- fell flat. And that's something the devs have acknowledged -- well, Act 3 in general is what they acknowledged as having not been very good.

[Sable Rhapsody]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

It doesn't say that he wasn't capable for the role. Only that his merit for the role isn't what comes to peoples' minds when they talk about how he got it.

Usually (not always but usually) such opinions have at least some basis in fact.  Given how Meredith and Orsino spend more time yelling at each other than assessing the qunari threat in Act 2 I'm inclined to believe neither was cut out for a position of power.  The Arishok is clearly at the boiling point, those two possess enough firepower to at least serve as a deterrent, and they can't set aside their differences until the Viscount's head is dearly departed from his shoulders?

And I understand Orsino wasn't allowed to leave the Gallows, but neither were the other mages.  They seemed to sneak out from under Meredith's nose just fine <_<  Though you do have a point about Act 3--it's hard to draw sensible conclusions about the characters when the writing quality was so inconsistent.

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 02 octobre 2012 - 09:04 .

[Gileadan]

I would find all this "the templar pressure causes the mages to turn to blood magic!"-defense a bit more credible if the blood mages in question would have used their blood magic to strike back at said templars. Instead they just seem to go postal at random people, sometimes even former friends and loved ones.

Orsino, who was most likely the greatest blood mage of Kirkwall, should have never been first enchanter. He did nothing against the rampant use of blood magic in the circle. Either by knowingly letting it slide, which would make him an accomplice, or by not knowing about it (not bloody likely), which would make him hilariously incompetent. Either way you turn it, he's the utterly wrong guy for that position.

Modifié par Gileadan, 02 octobre 2012 - 10:16 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

So when Meredith doesn't have omnipresent knowledge of the doings of all her Templars constantly she is incompetent, but when Orsino lacks the same for his amges, he is a poor victim? I love the smell of fresh bias in the morning....

[Plaintiff]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

So when Meredith doesn't have omnipresent knowledge of the doings of all her Templars constantly she is incompetent, but when Orsino lacks the same for his amges, he is a poor victim? I love the smell of fresh bias in the morning....

I'm not going to defend Orsino's actions, but Meredith was blatantly ignoring her duty in favour of playing petty power games with Aveline and the nobility. She and her templars simply weren't doing their jobs. If they were, then they wouldn't be outsourcing to Hawke in the first place.

Orsino was weak and a failure as a First Enchanter, but Meredith is the one who is actively interfering with the running of Kirkwall, and it's extremely telling that the nobility wants her gone, but takes little issue with him.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The nobles only complain because Meredith limits their Power. Don't fool yourself by thinking there is any altruistic motivation, behind the nobles' complains. By the end of the day pretty much everyone in Kirkwall was so busy trying to prevent others from achieving their goals, that they forgot their own priorities.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 02 octobre 2012 - 10:56 .

[Plaintiff]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The nobles only complain because Meredith limits their Power. Don't fool yourself by thinking there is any altruistic motivation, behind the nobles' complains. By the end of the day pretty much everyone in Kirkwall was so busy trying to prevent others from achieving their goals, that they forgot their own priorities.

And so they should complain. Determining the ruler of the city is their job, not hers. It is not her place to limit their power, it is her place to deal with mages. That is her only job, and she should damn well be doing it.