411 réponses à ce sujet

[EmperorSahlertz]

Plaintiff wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The nobles only complain because Meredith limits their Power. Don't fool yourself by thinking there is any altruistic motivation, behind the nobles' complains. By the end of the day pretty much everyone in Kirkwall was so busy trying to prevent others from achieving their goals, that they forgot their own priorities.

And so they should complain. Determining the ruler of the city is their job, not hers. It is not her place to limit their power, it is her place to deal with mages. That is her only job, and she should damn well be doing it.

She felt that she had to initiate martial law in Kirkwall to control the mage situation. She was trying to control it befoire, but when so many parties was actively working against her, from all levels of society, it is understandable that she ceased momentum and took over the city when she had the chance.

[CrazyRah]

ReggarBlane wrote...

And the guilt when finding out that the mage was innocent of whatever "crime"? Yes.

Seriously. This is a great plot device to use just for that alone. All known signs point to the mage, but the player missed some clues and performed the rite on an innocent person.

This sounds like an amazing idea!

[KainD]

Emzamination wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Semantics. The Rite can still be practiced.

If you think you can get within grabbing distance of any mage in order to perform it, you be my guest.

Templars have the power to nullify all mage mana and abilities, making any form of resistance futile.

Erm,  Blood magic? You can't nullify that. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

KainD wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Semantics. The Rite can still be practiced.

If you think you can get within grabbing distance of any mage in order to perform it, you be my guest.

Templars have the power to nullify all mage mana and abilities, making any form of resistance futile.

Erm,  Blood magic? You can't nullify that. 

You can start by cutting off the Blood Mage's head, see if that works...

[Plaintiff]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The nobles only complain because Meredith limits their Power. Don't fool yourself by thinking there is any altruistic motivation, behind the nobles' complains. By the end of the day pretty much everyone in Kirkwall was so busy trying to prevent others from achieving their goals, that they forgot their own priorities.

And so they should complain. Determining the ruler of the city is their job, not hers. It is not her place to limit their power, it is her place to deal with mages. That is her only job, and she should damn well be doing it.

She felt that she had to initiate martial law in Kirkwall to control the mage situation. She was trying to control it befoire, but when so many parties was actively working against her, from all levels of society, it is understandable that she ceased momentum and took over the city when she had the chance.

It's also not her place to make those sorts of decisions.

[KiwiQuiche]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

KainD wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Semantics. The Rite can still be practiced.

If you think you can get within grabbing distance of any mage in order to perform it, you be my guest.

Templars have the power to nullify all mage mana and abilities, making any form of resistance futile.

Erm,  Blood magic? You can't nullify that. 

You can start by cutting off the Blood Mage's head, see if that works...

Funny, I recall my non-blood mage character regularly kicking the sh!t out of templars- even when she just had Anders, Merril and Varric with her. Pretty damn useless at nillifying their abilities.

[Xilizhra]

Gileadan wrote...

I would find all this "the templar pressure causes the mages to turn to blood magic!"-defense a bit more credible if the blood mages in question would have used their blood magic to strike back at said templars. Instead they just seem to go postal at random people, sometimes even former friends and loved ones.

Orsino, who was most likely the greatest blood mage of Kirkwall, should have never been first enchanter. He did nothing against the rampant use of blood magic in the circle. Either by knowingly letting it slide, which would make him an accomplice, or by not knowing about it (not bloody likely), which would make him hilariously incompetent. Either way you turn it, he's the utterly wrong guy for that position.

None of the mages of the Circle actually attack randomly with blood magic. Tarohne and company were all long-time apostates, and Decimus and company were Starkhaven escapees, as was Quentin. There's a grand total of one, nameless blood mage who doesn't only fight the templars, and her other victims are other mages.

Also, Orsino wasn't a trained blood mage; he studied it but didn't use it. And you're still mistakenly defining blood magic as something inherently evil.

[berelinde]

Plaintiff wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The nobles only complain because Meredith limits their Power. Don't fool yourself by thinking there is any altruistic motivation, behind the nobles' complains. By the end of the day pretty much everyone in Kirkwall was so busy trying to prevent others from achieving their goals, that they forgot their own priorities.

And so they should complain. Determining the ruler of the city is their job, not hers. It is not her place to limit their power, it is her place to deal with mages. That is her only job, and she should damn well be doing it.

She felt that she had to initiate martial law in Kirkwall to control the mage situation. She was trying to control it befoire, but when so many parties was actively working against her, from all levels of society, it is understandable that she ceased momentum and took over the city when she had the chance.

It's also not her place to make those sorts of decisions.

I've kind of lost interest in the original topic, but EmperorSahlertz's... logic... is a bit hard to follow.

To summarize, according to EmperorSahlertz, nobles are helping mages only out of self-interest, and not even the enlightened kind. They only did it because Meredith usurped the power they traditionally held. Plaintiff asserts that their complaint was valid, that the right of government was rightfully theirs. EmperorSahlertz counters that Meredith was justified in taking over the nobles' responsibilities because so many of them were working against her... which, according to him, they only did because Meredith took away their powers in the first place. Somebody somewhere has just exceeded the speed of light. Either that, or somebody needs to rethink cause and effect. It's chronologically impossible.

Or, you know, Meredith could have just usurped authority because the power she already possessed after 7+ years of subjugating mages and keeping the viscount on a very short leash had corrupted her to the point of insanity.

I'll be going with the explanation that doesn't negate any laws of physics.

Modifié par berelinde, 02 octobre 2012 - 01:32 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

berelinde wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The nobles only complain because Meredith limits their Power. Don't fool yourself by thinking there is any altruistic motivation, behind the nobles' complains. By the end of the day pretty much everyone in Kirkwall was so busy trying to prevent others from achieving their goals, that they forgot their own priorities.

And so they should complain. Determining the ruler of the city is their job, not hers. It is not her place to limit their power, it is her place to deal with mages. That is her only job, and she should damn well be doing it.

She felt that she had to initiate martial law in Kirkwall to control the mage situation. She was trying to control it befoire, but when so many parties was actively working against her, from all levels of society, it is understandable that she ceased momentum and took over the city when she had the chance.

It's also not her place to make those sorts of decisions.

I've kind of lost interest in the original topic, but EmperorSahlertz's... logic... is a bit hard to follow.

To summarize, according to EmperorSahlertz, nobles are helping mages only out of self-interest, and not even the enlightened kind. They only did it because Meredith usurped the power they traditionally held. Plaintiff asserts that their complaint was valid, that the right of government was rightfully theirs. EmperorSahlertz counters that Meredith was justified in taking over the nobles' responsibilities because so many of them were working against her... which, according to him, they only did because Meredith took away their powers in the first place. Somebody somewhere has just exceeded the speed of light. Either that, or somebody needs to rethink cause and effect. It's chronologically impossible.

Or, you know, Meredith could have just usurped authority because the power she already possessed after 7+ years of subjugating mages and keeping the viscount on a very short leash had corrupted her to the point of insanity.

I'll be going with the explanation that doesn't negate any laws of physics.

I wasn't trying to justify Meredith's actions. I was trying to explain them. Furthermore I pointed out, that basicaly everyone in Kirkwall was counteracting eachother. Meredith refused to work with the amges, the mages refused to work with the Templars, the nobles refused to work with the Templars, the Chantry refused to work with the Qunari.  The list goes on and on and on. I am merely saying that to point to Meredith as the root of all of Kirkwall's trouble, is a bit shortsighted, since Kirkwall was in trouble long before she reached rank of Knight-Commander, and it could have been solved by many others than Meredith....
But since she went full crazy in the end, it is okay to blame everything on her.

[berelinde]

Meredith's insanity only serves to emphasize the dangers inherent in allowing one group, e.g. the templars, absolute authority. Meredith may have started out with altruistic intentions and a legitimate desire to protect innocents, but toward the end, even visitors from other kingdoms could see how dangerous she was, even to the people she claimed to protect.

It's about the balance of power. Civilian authority belongs with civilians. Religious guidance is the province of the Chantry. Allowing one group to usurp the other's job has devastating consequences, as we saw in Kirkwall and as we will see anywhere the situation is repeated. Power is power, whether it comes from temporal authority, religious persuasion, at the point of a sword, or from the end of a staff.

[Vandicus]

berelinde wrote...

Meredith's insanity only serves to emphasize the dangers inherent in allowing one group, e.g. the templars, absolute authority. Meredith may have started out with altruistic intentions and a legitimate desire to protect innocents, but toward the end, even visitors from other kingdoms could see how dangerous she was, even to the people she claimed to protect.

It's about the balance of power. Civilian authority belongs with civilians. Religious guidance is the province of the Chantry. Allowing one group to usurp the other's job has devastating consequences, as we saw in Kirkwall and as we will see anywhere the situation is repeated. Power is power, whether it comes from temporal authority, religious persuasion, at the point of a sword, or from the end of a staff.

Not really following the conversation here, but just going to point out that Meredith makes a terrible example. Any analogy with her requires some insanity creating artifact to make the group in power act crazy, which... doesn't really exist irl. 

[Xilizhra]

Meredith was crazed before that, the sword just made it worse. She demonstrates the dangers of putting someone with that sort of childhood trauma in that sort of position.

[Vandicus]

Xilizhra wrote...

Meredith was crazed before that, the sword just made it worse. She demonstrates the dangers of putting someone with that sort of childhood trauma in that sort of position.

I think Berelinde's point was more about power structures and the balance of power than "Insane people should not hold power." Which is why Meredith being a nutter makes her difficult to apply in such arguments.

[berelinde]

Meredith was a nutter before she got the idol, and her desire to possess it in the first place probably springs from that, but no, that wasn't the point. Absolute power will find the weakness in any vessel. If Seneschal Bran were the undisputed tyrant of Kirkwall, things would have been kinkier, but they would have deteriorated just as quickly.

[Plaintiff]

berelinde wrote...

Meredith was a nutter before she got the idol, and her desire to possess it in the first place probably springs from that, but no, that wasn't the point. Absolute power will find the weakness in any vessel. If Seneschal Bran were the undisputed tyrant of Kirkwall, things would have been kinkier, but they would have deteriorated just as quickly.

Total anarchy! Everybody would be kissing everybody!

[EmperorSahlertz]

What acts of insanity did Meredith commit before her contact with the idol, I forget...

[EpicBoot2daFace]

As long as I get some kickass Templar armor, I don't care what they do.

[berelinde]

It was more that she was already aboard the crazy train than that she had already reached her destination.

There are only three people in the game who are even affected by the idol: Meredith, Bartrand, and Varric. Everyone else seems immune, even though Hawke handles it repeatedly and Orsino's office is right across the corridor from the woman. What do those three susceptible people have in common? An unquenchable thirst for power. Yes, Varric, too, he just doesn't want the glory that goes along with it. Varric explains it to Carver himself in Act 1 in the banter about kings and the people who wield the real power. Also, Varric isn't mean-spirited the way the other two are, so his ambition is less obvious. In Act 3, he even wonders aloud why Hawke even wants to be friends with him, and tells him in a different conversation that it's the stories that have the power, and they may as well be his. Varric knows what he is.

Anyway, my point is that the idol did not cause insanity, exacly, as much as augment flaws that were always there. Bartrand was a bastard before he ever got his hands on the idol, Meredith was already merciless and power-hungry (even Macha and the recruits know this: "One hears such stories..."), and Varric was always ambitious, even if he used his drive to improve the lot of his friends instead of himself.

Maybe that's part of it. Maybe Meredith's selfishness and willingness to sacrifice everything to serve her own ends rather than improving the lives of others was what made her the most susceptible to the idol's influence. In any case, the flaw was already in her. Power in any form would only widen the cracks.

[Vandicus]

berelinde wrote...

It was more that she was already aboard the crazy train than that she had already reached her destination.

There are only three people in the game who are even affected by the idol: Meredith, Bartrand, and Varric. Everyone else seems immune, even though Hawke handles it repeatedly and Orsino's office is right across the corridor from the woman. What do those three susceptible people have in common? An unquenchable thirst for power. Yes, Varric, too, he just doesn't want the glory that goes along with it. Varric explains it to Carver himself in Act 1 in the banter about kings and the people who wield the real power. Also, Varric isn't mean-spirited the way the other two are, so his ambition is less obvious. In Act 3, he even wonders aloud why Hawke even wants to be friends with him, and tells him in a different conversation that it's the stories that have the power, and they may as well be his. Varric knows what he is.

Anyway, my point is that the idol did not cause insanity, exacly, as much as augment flaws that were always there. Bartrand was a bastard before he ever got his hands on the idol, Meredith was already merciless and power-hungry (even Macha and the recruits know this: "One hears such stories..."), and Varric was always ambitious, even if he used his drive to improve the lot of his friends instead of himself.

Maybe that's part of it. Maybe Meredith's selfishness and willingness to sacrifice everything to serve her own ends rather than improving the lives of others was what made her the most susceptible to the idol's influence. In any case, the flaw was already in her. Power in any form would only widen the cracks.

Interesting assesment. So you view it as sort've like The One Ring from LoTR. I'll have to look at that more closely on my next playthrough.

[Fallstar]

Not sure. Probably not though. Doubt I'll be doing any genocidal maniac playthroughs, but if that's your thing by all means.

[EmperorSahlertz]

I'd still like to know which specific acts of insanity Meredith commited, before her contact with the idol.

[Yaevinn]

BouncyFrag wrote...

If Anders shows up, then absolutely.

this

[The Hierophant]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I'd still like to know which specific acts of insanity Meredith commited, before her contact with the idol.

From what i remember she was only a hardliner. 

[Sable Rhapsody]

KainD wrote...
Erm,  Blood magic? You can't nullify that. 

You can, actually.  Remember the Litany of Adralla from DA:O?  It prevents and interrupts the most potent form of blood magic--demonic possession and mind control.  There's still no after-the-fact "cure" for blood magic, but according to the codex entry on her, Adralla made a lot of progress toward counteracting the stuff.

The Hierophant wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I'd still like to know which specific acts of insanity Meredith commited, before her contact with the idol.

From what i remember she was only a hardliner. 

The problem is that Anders is our primary source on Meredith's actions in Acts 1 and 2, and Anders is far from a neutral source of information.  She did either allow or order Karl's Rite of Tranquility, though she might have had a point there--one of her mages was sending letters on the sly to an apostate hostile to the templars.  I think Tranquiling Karl was a little extreme, but she was within her rights to do it.

And there's Ser Alrik in Act 2.  Meredith rejected his ideas, but she didn't do anything to stop his abuse of mages like Ella either.  Ella refers to his goons as Alrik's men, implying Meredith and the templar rank-and-file really had nothing to do with it.

In short, before Act 3, I don't think Meredith was insane.  She might not have been the best boss, but she wasn't a nutjob.

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 02 octobre 2012 - 10:29 .

[berelinde]

If she were indeed a hardliner in terms of following Chantry law to the letter, she would not have permitted Karl, a Harrowed mage, to be made Tranquil, which is actually a violation of Chantry law. Harrowed mages can be imprisoned locally or sent to Aeonar if they have committed an actual crime. Karl's "crime" was writing a letter to a friend. Say what you like, but that doesn't sound too stable to me.