411 réponses à ce sujet

[EmperorSahlertz]

Exactly.

[Sable Rhapsody]

berelinde wrote...
Karl's "crime" was writing a letter to a friend. Say what you like, but that doesn't sound too stable to me.

Karl was writing a letter to a Grey Warden defector and apostate mage who was a repeat offender in Ferelden.  I get the idea that the templars had no idea who Anders was as an individual (otherwise they would've rounded him up too) but the letters probably weren't innocuous given Anders' rhetoric even in Act 1.  And the templars were right to be concerned over Karl contacting an individual like that for help.  What help was Anders ever going to provide other than busting Karl out and making him an apostate?

I don't think they should've Tranquiled him, but I think given Meredith's past and backstory, it's an understandable decision on her part.  An overreaction, certainly, but not insanity by a long shot.

[berelinde]

As you say, Meredith did not know Anders. To her, he was just some mage in Ferelden.

Regardless, she broke Chantry law by allowing Karl to be made Tranquil. She was not within her rights in doing so. She *would* have been within her rights to send Karl to Aeonar for questioning, if she felt that he was communicating with an insurgent, but even that is disproportionate with the offense.

Given Meredith's past and backstory, her propensity for making emotion-fueled decisions in even the day-to-day activities of her job makes her a poor candidate for *any* position of authority, especially one that directly impacts other peoples' lives. Her position requires detachment.

Is lobotomizing someone out of paranoia a sane action?

It's a game. Somebody has to be the bad guy.

Edit: What am I saying? The entire purpose of this thread is to advocate lobotomizing people on a whim. It has occasionally touched on some interesting topics and has given some individuals a chance to display their sociopathic inclinations, but it was never going to be about logic.

Modifié par berelinde, 02 octobre 2012 - 11:28 .

[LobselVith8]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Karl was writing a letter to a Grey Warden defector and apostate mage who was a repeat offender in Ferelden.  I get the idea that the templars had no idea who Anders was as an individual (otherwise they would've rounded him up too) but the letters probably weren't innocuous given Anders' rhetoric even in Act 1.  And the templars were right to be concerned over Karl contacting an individual like that for help.  What help was Anders ever going to provide other than busting Karl out and making him an apostate?

I don't think they should've Tranquiled him, but I think given Meredith's past and backstory, it's an understandable decision on her part.  An overreaction, certainly, but not insanity by a long shot.

Alrik had Karl made tranquil; the letter found during Tranquility implies Meredith wasn't aware of Karl being made tranquil, as the lieutanent tried to speak to her about the issue. Given Alrik's penchant for making mages tranquil illegally, it's unlikely Karl did anything wrong but write a letter to Anders. In fact, Anders is worried because of the horrors Karl has described about the Gallows, and Karl's death seems to be what pushes Anders into joining the mage underground.

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

So when Meredith doesn't have omnipresent knowledge of the doings of all her Templars constantly she is incompetent, but when Orsino lacks the same for his amges, he is a poor victim? I love the smell of fresh bias in the morning....

Orsino lacked the knowledge of his mages' doings because Meredith forbade him from leaving the Gallows, which is where most of what was going on was happening. And if he had sneaked out to find out what was happening, that would've made Meredith think that the entire Circle was gone because of his presence, whether he was actually trying to be a part of anything or not.

Meredith, however, had absolutely nothing keeping her from doing anything, save for her own personal crusade to find the monsters she fears lurk in her armoire, or under her bed, or outside her window howling at the moon -- well, and the fact that the idol contributed a great deal to this. As a result, she was blind to her true duties as a Templar and the problems of Kirkwall continued to flourish.

Had Meredith not forbidden him from going anywhere, I would find him just as much to blame for not knowing what his Mages were doing -- even if I agreed with what they were doing -- as I would Meredith for her Templars.

But because he was forbidden from doing anything outside of the Gallows, he couldn't exercise an investigation into what they were doing.

It also doesn't help that Act 3 is a colossal failure in writing, when it had concepts that were sound.

Meredith and the majority of Kirkwall's Circle treated Orsino and the Mages like rabid animals that needed to be corralled, waiting for them to become such beasts and be put down so as to make the Templars feel vindicated in their beliefs. And thus there was little they could do.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 03 octobre 2012 - 03:34 .

[Icinix]

Yes.

But it will just make everyone really sleepy and huggy.

[Sable Rhapsody]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Alrik had Karl made tranquil; the letter found during Tranquility implies Meredith wasn't aware of Karl being made tranquil, as the lieutanent tried to speak to her about the issue. Given Alrik's penchant for making mages tranquil illegally, it's unlikely Karl did anything wrong but write a letter to Anders. In fact, Anders is worried because of the horrors Karl has described about the Gallows, and Karl's death seems to be what pushes Anders into joining the mage underground.

Ah, my mistake.  Apologies, I don't think I ever got that letter.  Too busy lighting templars on fire 

In that case, Meredith is a lot like Orsino--she's just not cut out for the position of authority she holds, especially if templars like Alrik are running amok.  It makes her culpable, but it doesn't indicate she was losing it in any sense before the lyrium idol.  My point is that she was never a good boss, but she didn't directly do anything outlandish until Act 3.

Icinix wrote...

Yes.

But it will just make everyone really sleepy and huggy.

I wasn't aware the Rite involved pot.  In that case, bring it on! 

[Gileadan]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Had Meredith not forbidden him from going anywhere, I would find him just as much to blame for not knowing what his Mages were doing -- even if I agreed with what they were doing -- as I would Meredith for her Templars. 

But because he was forbidden from doing anything outside of the Gallows, he couldn't exercise an investigation into what they were doing.

Neither could he hire an outsider like Hawke to do the investigation for him and ferret out any abominations or blood mages... oh, wait.

And why would he have to leave the Gallows to investigate anyway?  The Circle mages are not supposed to leave the Gallows either unless they are apostates on the run, in which case Meredith would come after them immediately, as in "On the Loose". 

The mages he needed to investigate were right there with him, right under his nose. 

EDIT:
But yes, I think most of it is just, well, not-so-good writing. It feels like a cop-out that both Meredith and Orsino weren't quite right in their heads, which reduced their conflict to a brawl in the loony bin for me (except they both had, inexplicably, a huge amount of followers). Even Skyrim, which really isn't strong on story elements, had way better antagonists in the civil war conflict (General Tullius and Jarl Ulfric). In Skyrim, I had a hard time choosing a faction. In DA2, I just wanted to stomp 'em both in the end.

Modifié par Gileadan, 03 octobre 2012 - 10:18 .

[fchopin]

According to wicki if a mage has passed the mage test then they can never be made tranquil, so anyone attempting to make a mage tranquil should automatically be killed.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Gileadan wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Had Meredith not forbidden him from going anywhere, I would find him just as much to blame for not knowing what his Mages were doing -- even if I agreed with what they were doing -- as I would Meredith for her Templars. 

But because he was forbidden from doing anything outside of the Gallows, he couldn't exercise an investigation into what they were doing.

Neither could he hire an outsider like Hawke to do the investigation for him and ferret out any abominations or blood mages... oh, wait.

And why would he have to leave the Gallows to investigate anyway?  The Circle mages are not supposed to leave the Gallows either unless they are apostates on the run, in which case Meredith would come after them immediately, as in "On the Loose". 

The mages he needed to investigate were right there with him, right under his nose. 

EDIT:
But yes, I think most of it is just, well, not-so-good writing. It feels like a cop-out that both Meredith and Orsino weren't quite right in their heads, which reduced their conflict to a brawl in the loony bin for me (except they both had, inexplicably, a huge amount of followers). Even Skyrim, which really isn't strong on story elements, had way better antagonists in the civil war conflict (General Tullius and Jarl Ulfric). In Skyrim, I had a hard time choosing a faction. In DA2, I just wanted to stomp 'em both in the end.

Oh but you see, since the ones that were actually "bad mages" were already outside the Gallows, which totally prevented him from goign with alist of names to Meredith. You see Orsino is just apoor little victim mage, who could never dream of hurting anyone, and certainly didn't have an agenda of his own. Everybody knows that.

[LobselVith8]

Gileadan wrote...

But yes, I think most of it is just, well, not-so-good writing. It feels like a cop-out that both Meredith and Orsino weren't quite right in their heads, which reduced their conflict to a brawl in the loony bin for me (except they both had, inexplicably, a huge amount of followers). Even Skyrim, which really isn't strong on story elements, had way better antagonists in the civil war conflict (General Tullius and Jarl Ulfric). In Skyrim, I had a hard time choosing a faction. In DA2, I just wanted to stomp 'em both in the end.

That was the problem. Skyrim's conflict was between two flawed leaders who were doing what they thought was best for Skyrim. Neither one turned into a monster, even if one of them became your antagonist. They were how Orsino and Meredith should have been handled. With Dragon Age II, we had Orsino and Meredith become literal monsters, mages and templars as one-dimensional caricatures, and no effort to explore the complex dichotomy between the positions of the mages and templars.

Even Orsino knowing Quentin and Meredith buying the Idol only transpire because the Plot dictates, not because it makes any sense. We had hack and slash instead of philosophical debates and valid arguments between two sides who both believe they are right. 

[TEWR]

[quote]Gileadan wrote...

Neither could he hire an outsider like Hawke to do the investigation for him and ferret out any abominations or blood mages... oh, wait.[/quote]

I don't see how that's an issue. I don't think he was ever forbidden from doing such a thing by Meredith. All we know is that she forbade him from leaving the Gallows. And it's actually not a bad idea to go to Hawke. Asking Hawke to investigate on Orsino's part so that Orsino's presence can't be used as grounds to call the entire Circle corrupt and in need of Annulment.


[quote]And why would he have to leave the Gallows to investigate anyway?  The Circle mages are not supposed to leave the Gallows either unless they are apostates on the run, in which case Meredith would come after them immediately, as in "On the Loose". 

The mages he needed to investigate were right there with him, right under his nose. [/quote]

Two reasons:

1) In the event that they didn't trust him, they'd just bull**** to him if he tried interrogating them on what they were doing -- though the idea that Orsino couldn't be trusted by this rebellion is an absolutely absurd idea, and one that sadly the game tries to do.

2) The mages are under his nose? Yes, and the Templars are everywhere in the Gallows. It's not so simple as "Hey, we need to talk" and he's able to do so privately without any interference. 

Never mind that Meredith had more information on what the mages were doing -- whereas Orsino only knew that they were leaving the Gallows -- and she didn't go to him saying "Hey, if you really want things to go smoothly around here, let's both look into this as it might just threaten the entire Circle".

But she didn't. Though that's sadly able to be chalked up to the lyrium idol, an idea which had it been done right would've added to Meredith's characterization rather then detract from it. I can see the trace elements of what Bioware wanted to convey with it, but it's ultimately ruined by poor writing.

Which makes all of this is moot because you yourself admitted the following.

[quote]
But yes, I think most of it is just, well, not-so-good writing. It feels like a cop-out that both Meredith and Orsino weren't quite right in their heads, which reduced their conflict to a brawl in the loony bin for me (except they both had, inexplicably, a huge amount of followers). Even Skyrim, which really isn't strong on story elements, had way better antagonists in the civil war conflict (General Tullius and Jarl Ulfric). In Skyrim, I had a hard time choosing a faction. In DA2, I just wanted to stomp 'em both in the end.[/quote]

[/quote]


[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Oh but you see, since the ones that were actually "bad mages" were already outside the Gallows, which totally prevented him from goign with alist of names to Meredith.[/quote]

I don't consider those Mages to be bad. I consider them to be caricatures and the result of sloppy, idiotic writing.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 03 octobre 2012 - 08:11 .