411 réponses à ce sujet

[Lithuasil]

brushyourteeth wrote...

The Qunari cut out their tongues/sew their mouths shut, place magical collars with control rods on them, treat them as weapons instead of people, brainwash them into hating themselves, allow them no autonomy or free expression whatsoever? Nobody complains.

They do that to anyone they can get their hands on, but yeah - they're evil. Evil with a very dedicated fanbase for some elusive reason 

[brushyourteeth]

Lithuasil wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

The Qunari cut out their tongues/sew their mouths shut, place magical collars with control rods on them, treat them as weapons instead of people, brainwash them into hating themselves, allow them no autonomy or free expression whatsoever? Nobody complains.

They do that to anyone they can get their hands on, but yeah - they're evil. Evil with a very dedicated fanbase for some elusive reason 

Because they look much cooler than old ladies in robes? Yeah. But still! 

[Xilizhra]

I support this, provided a pro-mage Inquisitor can shove demons into captured templars a la Tarohne.

I'm not saying the first system is anything close to perfect. Just that it's definitely not the one we should be first to vilify, here.

It's the first vilified because it was the first heard of, the more familiarly practiced, and it's being done by a faction that can be ostensibly allied with. Both should be vilified at the same time as being supremely evil, of course.

[Star fury]

Xilizhra wrote...

I support this, provided a pro-mage Inquisitor can shove demons into captured templars a la Tarohne.

.

You wanna have protagonist as an apostitute© Isabela?

[TEWR]

I support this, provided a pro-mage Inquisitor can shove demons into captured templars a la Tarohne.

That'd be a horrible thing from a military perspective if you want to punish the Templars. You can't control them that easily, and it could result in Mage casualties as well as casualties of innocent mundane civilians/Templars that are on your side.

Just Tranquil them too.

[Xilizhra]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I support this, provided a pro-mage Inquisitor can shove demons into captured templars a la Tarohne.

That'd be a horrible thing from a military perspective if you want to punish the Templars. You can't control them that easily, and it could result in Mage casualties as well as casualties of innocent mundane civilians/Templars that are on your side.

Just Tranquil them too.

Well, we're in the "Evil for the hell of it" thread, so I figured why not?

[TEWR]

The Qunari cut out their tongues/sew their mouths shut, place magical collars with control rods on them, treat them as weapons instead of people, brainwash them into hating themselves, allow them no autonomy or free expression whatsoever?

I don't think the Qunari cut out their tongues, based on Saarebas. Sten said they did, but Saarebas would provide evidence to differ.

As for no autonomy? Mary Kirby confirmed in the past that some Mages can become Ben-Hassrath, though they're still watched carefully. I don't know if it's still with an Arvaarad. Only that Mages can become Ben-Hassrath and are allowed slightly more freedoms then before.

Mainly, I don't hate the Qunari for what they do because they still see them as people and do what they do out of a warped sense of caring. It's abhorrent, but I don't hate them for what they do. I think that they're wrong and do need to learn from it though, as it's something I don't like.

They pity and honor the Saarebas for being a living embodiment of the Qun.

Also, Saarebas don't hate themselves. I wouldn't say they love themselves, either, but they don't hate themselves.

And besides, the Qunari don't believe in enslavement. The Chantry... well their history is all about enslaving other people without the actual term.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 28 septembre 2012 - 05:04 .

[brushyourteeth]

Xilizhra wrote...

I support this, provided a pro-mage Inquisitor can shove demons into captured templars a la Tarohne.

I'm not saying the first system is anything close to perfect. Just that it's definitely not the one we should be first to vilify, here.

It's the first vilified because it was the first heard of, the more familiarly practiced, and it's being done by a faction that can be ostensibly allied with. Both should be vilified at the same time as being supremely evil, of course.

Everything about that was fair. I have no objections - insanity!!

Xilizhra wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

That'd be a horrible thing from a military perspective if you want to punish the Templars. You can't control them that easily, and it could result in Mage casualties as well as casualties of innocent mundane civilians/Templars that are on your side.

Just Tranquil them too.

Well, we're in the "Evil for the hell of it" thread, so I figured why not?

This totally made me LOL!

[brushyourteeth]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Qunari cut out their tongues/sew their mouths shut, place magical collars with control rods on them, treat them as weapons instead of people, brainwash them into hating themselves, allow them no autonomy or free expression whatsoever?

I don't think the Qunari cut out their tongues, based on Saarebas. Sten said they did, but Saarebas would provide evidence to differ.

As for no autonomy? Mary Kirby confirmed in the past that some Mages can become Ben-Hassrath, though they're still watched carefully.

Mainly, I don't hate the Qunari for what they do because they still see them as people and do what they do out of a warped sense of caring. It's abhorrent, but I don't hate them for what they do. I think that they're wrong and do need to learn from it though, as it's something I don't like.

They pity and honor the Saarebas for being a living embodiment of the Qun.

Also, Saarebas don't hate themselves. I wouldn't say they love themselves, either, but they don't hate themselves.

And besides, the Qunari don't believe in enslavement. The Chantry... well their history is all about enslaving other people without the actual term.

Okay, this is exactly what I'm talking about.
Everything about that was just.... you're making excuses for the Qunari. And lame ones (sorry, but true). I don't even know where you stand on the Chantry, but I'll bet anything you aren't near so gracious towards them.

(Xilizhra - jump in and back me up. It may be our only chance to be on the same side!!)

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 28 septembre 2012 - 05:05 .

[Dave of Canada]

I'd love to have the option to execute or tranquil mages, provided tranquility also carries the risk of the mage being saved and "cured" after Asunder. I wouldn't mind having a tranquil servant who carries around my luggage and gives me my mail, maybe teach it to make sassy remarks in a monotone way.

[Xilizhra]

And besides, the Qunari don't believe in enslavement. The Chantry... well their history is all about enslaving other people without the actual term.

The qunari are... different, at least. In Andrastian societies, there are slaves and masters; in qunari society, everyone is a slave to the Qun itself, and there aren't "masters" as such. No one has any freedom of action or thought under the Qun.

Mainly, I don't hate the Qunari for what they do because they still see
them as people and do what they do out of a warped sense of caring. It's
abhorrent, but I don't hate them for what they do. I think that they're
wrong and do need to learn from it though, as it's something I don't
like.

"Warped sense of caring?" Funny, that's exactly what I've said about Meredith all this time, and that certainly didn't help the mages of Kirkwall any.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 28 septembre 2012 - 05:07 .

[TEWR]

Xilizhra wrote...
Well, we're in the "Evil for the hell of it" thread, so I figured why not?

I could come up with a few other evil things to do. Let's see.... drop them in molten lyrium. That's one. Hmm... what others are there?

[Eveangaline]

Melca36 wrote...

Nope. I want a neutral character. I have no interest in playing a prejudiced zealot.

To be fair they were talking more "have the option" not "make you do it"

Modifié par Eveangaline, 28 septembre 2012 - 05:14 .

[naughty99]

I think it could actually be fun if a mage player is temporarily made tranquil as part of a quest, especially if it is something that comes about as a consequence for earlier choices.

Perhaps over time, we develop an extremely negative reputation with the Chantry or some arrogant leader of a sort of Circle of Mages and he has us made tranquil. The imagespace template changes and we suddenly have very limited combat and maybe even some really funny dialogue options, but there is a way to reverse the process.

[brushyourteeth]

I don't know how anyone could claim that the Saarebas aren't slaves. They literally have every ounce of control taken from them and have no exercise of free will as far as we know. Their Arvaarad controls them like a puppet. That's slavery.

I doubt a Saarebas could even take a pee without the say-so of their master. That's slavery. That's worse than slavery. It doesn't matter that they might agree to being kept if you asked them -- we'd say the same thing about Keili or other Circle mages who fear losing the Maker's blessing by leaving the Circle. And those mages have a LOT more freedom than the Saarebas.

[Eveangaline]

naughty99 wrote...

I think it could actually be fun if a mage player is temporarily made tranquil as part of a quest, especially if it is something that comes about as a consequence for earlier choices.

Perhaps over time, we develop an extremely negative reputation with the Chantry or some arrogant leader of a sort of Circle of Mages and he has us made tranquil. The imagespace template changes and we suddenly have very limited combat and maybe even some really funny dialogue options, but there is a way to reverse the process.

As far as we've seen, the only way to reverse the process is stand close to anders while he's justicy

[LobselVith8]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Well, we're in the "Evil for the hell of it" thread, so I figured why not?

I could come up with a few other evil things to do. Let's see.... drop them in molten lyrium. That's one. Hmm... what others are there?

Use templars to fuel powerful blood magic spells to defeat the enemy.

[Xilizhra]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Well, we're in the "Evil for the hell of it" thread, so I figured why not?

I could come up with a few other evil things to do. Let's see.... drop them in molten lyrium. That's one. Hmm... what others are there?

Use templars to fuel powerful blood magic spells to defeat the enemy.

Strictly speaking, we should be able to do that anyway. I mean, if they're the enemy, they'll be dead regardless, so their blood should be a freely usable resource, yes? Just so long as we don't kill anyone who's actually surrendered.

[naughty99]

Eveangaline wrote...

naughty99 wrote...

I think it could actually be fun if a mage player is temporarily made tranquil as part of a quest, especially if it is something that comes about as a consequence for earlier choices.

Perhaps over time, we develop an extremely negative reputation with the Chantry or some arrogant leader of a sort of Circle of Mages and he has us made tranquil. The imagespace template changes and we suddenly have very limited combat and maybe even some really funny dialogue options, but there is a way to reverse the process.

As far as we've seen, the only way to reverse the process is stand close to anders while he's justicy

Certainly, if you are playing an blood mage apostate sympathizer who hates the Templars, for example, being made tranquil would be the absolute worst thing possible, so the stakes would be very high.

[Eveangaline]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Well, we're in the "Evil for the hell of it" thread, so I figured why not?

I could come up with a few other evil things to do. Let's see.... drop them in molten lyrium. That's one. Hmm... what others are there?

Use templars to fuel powerful blood magic spells to defeat the enemy.

Curse all templars to have mage children or nieces and nephews

[brushyourteeth]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Well, we're in the "Evil for the hell of it" thread, so I figured why not?

I could come up with a few other evil things to do. Let's see.... drop them in molten lyrium. That's one. Hmm... what others are there?

Use templars to fuel powerful blood magic spells to defeat the enemy.

I had a dream about that once. It was horrifying. 

[Xilizhra]

brushyourteeth wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Well, we're in the "Evil for the hell of it" thread, so I figured why not?

I could come up with a few other evil things to do. Let's see.... drop them in molten lyrium. That's one. Hmm... what others are there?

Use templars to fuel powerful blood magic spells to defeat the enemy.

I had a dream about that once. It was horrifying. 

Which end were you on?

[TEWR]

brushyourteeth wrote...

Okay, this is exactly what I'm talking about.

Anaan Esaam Qun!

brushyourteeth wrote...
Everything about that was just.... you're making excuses for the Qunari. And lame ones (sorry, but true).

Not everything I said was a lie or what I'd call a lame excuse. As Xilizhra said, one could argue everyone's a slave to the Qun. But I'd also argue that in that slavery, there's true freedom. Not so much freedom to live how you want, but perhaps freedom to live a life worth living.

For Sten, a life where he dies in battle is preferable to a life where he's either a coward or just dies.

And the Qun has some real wisdom in it. I think you can't really deny that. Not all of it's wise -- thinking magic stems from demons is wrong and ignorant -- but I'd say most of it is.

And the thing about Mary Kirby? That part's true. The Mages that become Ben-Hassrath do acquire more freedoms, though they're still watched carefully.

I don't think the Qun is perfect -- there are a few tenets of it I disagree with, most prominently how they treat Mages and convert by force primarily -- but I think it's not so evil as people make it out to be.

I'm about as pro-Qunari as a person can get without actually being Qunari.

brushyourteeth wrote...

I don't even know where you stand on the Chantry, but I'll bet anything you aren't near so gracious towards them.

I'm in a love-hate relationship with them. On the one hand, I support Justinia V for having the right mindset and fervently believe that if the Mages are smart they will offer their assistance and protection to her, as it's the politically sound move to increase the chances of greater freedoms -- though restrictions would still be in place -- and a better outlook from the populus.

On the other hand, I despise the Chantry itself for breeding the very system that has brought them their just desserts. The Templars are fanatical zealots, backed by Chantry priests that are intertwined in politics so much it's sickening and sometimes won't even make a stand for what's right. What's worse, the institution fails to properly keep itself in check. Their idea for solving problems is "Oppress Mages further" and have even gone so far as to deny anatomical research at times, which would help a great deal in dealing with problems. They allow people like Alrik, Meredith, and Karras in the Order and fail to have psychological checks on both the Mages and Templars, so as to weed out the Quentins/Tarohnes and the aforementioned Templars I named.

IMO, the Chantry only cares about political clout throughout Thedas and won't stand for any other belief that interferes with that goal. The whole "Maker will return" schtick is a ruse for their true goals.

I also believe that for centuries they've known Andraste was really a mage -- if not a Somniari OGB Blood Mage -- and have been covering it up. I hope Justinia V reveals this to the populus.

I don't believe the Chantry should be destroyed as an institution, but it does need serious reformation. The Divine is always, IMO, the voice of the Chantry itself. That's primarily why I like Justinia V and believe the rogue Templars and Seekers -- the New Inquisition, as I've called them prior to the "revelation" that the group we'll play as is called the Inquisition -- are going against the Chantry itself by doing what they're doing.

Justinia V is the type of Divine the Chantry should have. Her predecessor and the Divine that contemplated marching on the Grand Cathedral that housed peacefully protesting Mages are the ones that should never achieve such a position.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 28 septembre 2012 - 05:26 .

[Dave of Canada]

Eveangaline wrote...

As far as we've seen, the only way to reverse the process is stand close to anders while he's justicy

Asunder has shown us there's a cure for tranquility.

It's a stupid idea overall but it exists, let's just hope mages aren't stupid enough to see one of the biggest sources of income disappear in the middle of a war. (Who am I kidding, they will no doubt do it)

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 28 septembre 2012 - 05:24 .

[Xilizhra]

Not everything I said was a lie. As Xilizhra said, one could argue everyone's a slave to the Qun. But I'd also argue that in that slavery, there's true freedom. Not so much freedom to live how you want, but perhaps freedom to live a life worth living.

I think your sentence there is clinically schizophrenic. Not you, just that sentence. It makes... no sense no matter how I try to parse it. Is slavery somehow necessary to have a life worth living?

And the thing about Mary Kirby? That part's true. The Mages that become Ben-Hassrath do acquire more freedoms, though they're still watched carefully.

So do Andrastian mages who become Grey Wardens, and they don't have to become ideological enforcers, forcing the same state they were in upon every mage they come across.

I don't think the Qun is perfect -- there are a few tenets of it I disagree with, most prominently how they treat Mages and convert by force primarily -- but I think it's not so evil as people make it out to be.

If the darkspawn don't count, inherently possessing little to no free will, the Qun is the most perfect evil we've ever seen on Thedas.

I'm in a love-hate relationship with them. On the one hand, I support Justinia V for having the right mindset and fervently believe that if the Mages are smart they will offer their assistance and protection to her, as it's the politically sound move to increase the chances of greater freedoms -- though restrictions would still be in place -- and a better outlook from the populus.

There is no compromise. If Justinia would try to keep the mages under any sort of Chantry control whatsoever, her aid is of no use in the long run. Also, **** the Divine.