Xilizhra wrote...
The Dragon Age comic. And if any mages support the templars, they'll get the same deal as the templars themselves.
No, I'll kill them if they join the templars' side of the war.hhh89 wrote...
Xilizhra wrote...
The Dragon Age comic. And if any mages support the templars, they'll get the same deal as the templars themselves.
I'm doubtful, since a lot of the rebelling mages approved the Harrowing, and it doesn't seem to me that they were killed, or that the other mages want to kill them.
Plaintiff wrote...
I never said there should be no policing system.panamakira wrote...
Also for the sake of being the devil's advocate here. My question is for the pro-mages. If let's say we got rid of all Templars (no Templar organization or police to control mages). What indication do we have that Kirkwall or Ferelden for example wouldn't become the next Tevinter Imperium.
You know that grand ol' place where a good chunk of the mage population is a blood mage and they like to keep slaves?
I'm really curious about this.
I don't know if the mages of Thedas will forge another slave nation like Tevinter. I do know that imprisoning and mistreating them for something they might do is illogical and unconscienable.
If the mages do become oppressors, I'll fight against them when and if that happens.
It's very simple: In a conflict between oppressor and oppressed, always support the oppressed.
Emzamination wrote...
Elton John is dead wrote...
Yes please. It really is a huge choice to make with a heavy consequence. If we ever end up being given the choice to perform it on a companion then it will become an even bigger choice to make.
I want to perform the rite on morrigan.
Plaintiff wrote...
It's very simple: In a conflict between oppressor and oppressed, always support the oppressed.
The problem is that this doesn't matter. If the templars support the current Order, they'll continue supporting treating mages like animals even if they don't like it personally. Their feelings are irrelevant; only their actions matter.I'm one of the believers that there has to be a better solution to the Circle but sadly mages cannot be unmonitored or unpoliced. They are simply too dangerous. I also believe that pro-mages fail to realize that although they accuse pro-templars of judging all mages as blood mages and weak against demons, that not all templars want to treat mages like animals. We've had plenty of examples from both factions where working in peace was possible.
It depends on who's inside. If it's templars, no. If it's civilians, probably. If it's Chantry officials... I'll see what exactly is going on and figure out the motivation of the attack.So if you walked into a Chantry and everyone inside was being attacked by blood mages, you'd defend them?
Modifié par Xilizhra, 28 septembre 2012 - 03:43 .
Plaintiff wrote...
I repeat, there is no such thing as "neutrality" in that situation.hhh89 wrote...
Plaintiff wrote...
There is no such thing as neutrality when you're dealing with obvious injustice.
If the game in question is DA2, neutrality should be an option in the game, since both sides are wrong and completely insane.
Even if you had the choice to claim to be neutral, you would not really be neutral. If you are "neutral" in the face of obvious oppression, then you are allowing tht oppression to continue, and the oppressed will remember that you were aware of their suffering and made no attempt to prevent it. They will despise you for it, and they will be right to.
"If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor. If an elephant has its foot on the tail of a mouse and you say that you are neutral, the mouse will not appreciate your neutrality."
- Desmond Tutu
"The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."
- Dante Alighieri
"We must take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented. Sometimes we must interfere. When human lives are endangered, when human dignity is in jeopardy, national borders and sensitivities become irrelevant. Wherever men and women are persecuted because of their race, religion, or political views, that place must - at that moment - become the center of the universe."
- Elie Wiesel
So everyone deserves freedom as long as they do what you want them to? Sometimes your logic disturbs me.Xilizhra wrote...
No, I'll kill them if they join the templars' side of the war.hhh89 wrote...
Xilizhra wrote...
The Dragon Age comic. And if any mages support the templars, they'll get the same deal as the templars themselves.
I'm doubtful, since a lot of the rebelling mages approved the Harrowing, and it doesn't seem to me that they were killed, or that the other mages want to kill them.
It's war. They joined the enemy side. That leads to death if that side is the losing one, which I intend it to be. I will, of course, accept surrenders, and be more merciful to them than the templars would...brushyourteeth wrote...
So everyone deserves freedom as long as they do what you want them to? Sometimes your logic disturbs me.Xilizhra wrote...
No, I'll kill them if they join the templars' side of the war.hhh89 wrote...
Xilizhra wrote...
The Dragon Age comic. And if any mages support the templars, they'll get the same deal as the templars themselves.
I'm doubtful, since a lot of the rebelling mages approved the Harrowing, and it doesn't seem to me that they were killed, or that the other mages want to kill them.
Emzamination wrote...
LobselVith8 wrote...
Emzamination wrote...
XxDeonxX wrote...
LobselVith8 wrote...
Blood magic is a necessity. Fueling powerful spells with living templars could allow the rebels to accomplish grandiose spells. Mind control is also an effective way to make a templar surrender. I'm sure the lyrium withdrawal would be a factor for their mental health, depending on their access to it, but blood magic should work regardless.
It's also a very effective way to loose public support, Ferelden for starters. Making the rebel's chances of loosing the war much higher. I approve =D
Right!? Lobsel's demented maleficar rantings just reinforce how insane blood mages are and why every available weapon and rite are conceivable & viable options for pro-templars in this war.
History will absolve me. La historia me absolverá for the Latino blood mages out there).
Only Andraste's pyre will offer any form of absoloution to foul blood mages! Mankind ill needs saviors such as you! Die by the sword of mercy and burn far far from the sight of The Maker monster! You don't belong in this world!
Modifié par Elton John is dead, 28 septembre 2012 - 03:46 .
Xilizhra wrote...
It's war. They joined the enemy side. That leads to death if that side is the losing one, which I intend it to be. I will, of course, accept surrenders, and be more merciful to them than the templars would...
Modifié par hhh89, 28 septembre 2012 - 03:48 .
Of course. I will of course watch them carefully for signs of treachery/spying, but if they want to defect, I'll let them do so.hhh89 wrote...
Xilizhra wrote...
It's war. They joined the enemy side. That leads to death if that side is the losing one, which I intend it to be. I will, of course, accept surrenders, and be more merciful to them than the templars would...
What if a templars surrenders to you? And you'll accept templars that want to fight for the mage's cause?
Well obviosuly the mages need to be policed. Every one does. But the Chantry should not be in charge of that policing, anymore than the WBC should be in charge of governing homosexual rights. The Chantry should not be in charge of anything.panamakira wrote...
Plaintiff wrote...
I never said there should be no policing system.panamakira wrote...
Also for the sake of being the devil's advocate here. My question is for the pro-mages. If let's say we got rid of all Templars (no Templar organization or police to control mages). What indication do we have that Kirkwall or Ferelden for example wouldn't become the next Tevinter Imperium.
You know that grand ol' place where a good chunk of the mage population is a blood mage and they like to keep slaves?
I'm really curious about this.
I don't know if the mages of Thedas will forge another slave nation like Tevinter. I do know that imprisoning and mistreating them for something they might do is illogical and unconscienable.
If the mages do become oppressors, I'll fight against them when and if that happens.
It's very simple: In a conflict between oppressor and oppressed, always support the oppressed.
I believe there is a flaw in this logic. I agree with you that we should not mistreat mages just because we believe they "might" become a blood-magic, slave crazed nation if let loose but I also believe that not preventing it from happening will cause the innocents stuck in the middle of this conflict to die/suffer at greater numbers than they are right now.
I'm one of the believers that there has to be a better solution to the Circle but sadly mages cannot be unmonitored or unpoliced. They are simply too dangerous. I also believe that pro-mages fail to realize that although they accuse pro-templars of judging all mages as blood mages and weak against demons, that not all templars want to treat mages like animals. We've had plenty of examples from both factions where working in peace was possible.
There is plenty of crazy in both mages and templars sides which is why until a better option comes along I refuse to adamantly take a side (unless forced to do so). There's always a third option and without speculation BW should offer us that chance.
I just thought we were all hoping for mage freedom. Not a new flavor of mage oppression. It's pretty clear from your comments that when this war is over, should some Andrastian mages want to re-form the Circle system, you'll cut them down like dogs. That's scary.Xilizhra wrote...
It's war. They joined the enemy side. That leads to death if that side is the losing one, which I intend it to be. I will, of course, accept surrenders, and be more merciful to them than the templars would...brushyourteeth wrote...
So everyone deserves freedom as long as they do what you want them to? Sometimes your logic disturbs me.Xilizhra wrote...
No, I'll kill them if they join the templars' side of the war.hhh89 wrote...
Xilizhra wrote...
The Dragon Age comic. And if any mages support the templars, they'll get the same deal as the templars themselves.
I'm doubtful, since a lot of the rebelling mages approved the Harrowing, and it doesn't seem to me that they were killed, or that the other mages want to kill them.
brushyourteeth wrote...
LobselVith8 wrote...
I was thinking how the tone three pages back was friendly and relaxed, not über-serious and combative. It was fun. I thought it was cool that pro-templar and pro-mage fans were having a nice time in the same thread; I guess it wasn't meant to last.
Dear LobselVith8,
I disagree with you somewhat about the plight of the mages, but I still think you're cool and interesting to interact with. Your comments, while extreme, are well-thought out and polite. I really respect that about you! Let's agree to have a friendly debate soon!
Yours truly,
brushyourteeth
Well, not when the war's over. There's no need to kill people when not in hot combat. However, my point was that I'm not in favor of anyone trying to reestablish the Chantry's tyranny, regardless of their own magical status. Why would I practice bigotry in that manner?I just thought we were all hoping for mage freedom. Not a new flavor of mage oppression. It's pretty clear from your comments that when this war is over, should some Andrastian mages want to re-form the Circle system, you'll cut them down like dogs. That's scary.
LobselVith8 wrote...
brushyourteeth wrote...
LobselVith8 wrote...
I was thinking how the tone three pages back was friendly and relaxed, not über-serious and combative. It was fun. I thought it was cool that pro-templar and pro-mage fans were having a nice time in the same thread; I guess it wasn't meant to last.
Dear LobselVith8,
I disagree with you somewhat about the plight of the mages, but I still think you're cool and interesting to interact with. Your comments, while extreme, are well-thought out and polite. I really respect that about you! Let's agree to have a friendly debate soon!
Yours truly,
brushyourteeth
Thanks, Brush. I appreciate that. Have to head to court for my firm. Talk to you later.
The Tevinter Imperium still widely practices slavery. My main point is that regardless if someone is a templar or mage, there will always be an abuse of power. Kirkwall represents the worst of the templars while the Tevinter continues to do same for the mages.Plaintiff wrote...
No it can't. That happened over a millenium ago. The mages that are being oppressed now have no connection to Tevinter and are not at all responsible for anything related to it. They have had no hand in creating the situation in which they now live.The Hierophant wrote...
Irony much? The same can be said for the Chantry/Templars being what they are due to the Tevinter Imperium's magical reign of tyranny.Plaintiff wrote...
If you create a monster, you don't get to complain when it destroys your house.
Modifié par The Hierophant, 28 septembre 2012 - 03:53 .
Elton John is dead wrote...
Emzamination wrote...
LobselVith8 wrote...
Emzamination wrote...
XxDeonxX wrote...
LobselVith8 wrote...
Blood magic is a necessity. Fueling powerful spells with living templars could allow the rebels to accomplish grandiose spells. Mind control is also an effective way to make a templar surrender. I'm sure the lyrium withdrawal would be a factor for their mental health, depending on their access to it, but blood magic should work regardless.
It's also a very effective way to loose public support, Ferelden for starters. Making the rebel's chances of loosing the war much higher. I approve =D
Right!? Lobsel's demented maleficar rantings just reinforce how insane blood mages are and why every available weapon and rite are conceivable & viable options for pro-templars in this war.
History will absolve me. La historia me absolverá for the Latino blood mages out there).
Only Andraste's pyre will offer any form of absoloution to foul blood mages! Mankind ill needs saviors such as you! Die by the sword of mercy and burn far far from the sight of The Maker monster! You don't belong in this world!
Fix'd with Castlevania references.
Xilizhra wrote...
Well, not when the war's over. There's no need to kill people when not in hot combat. However, my point was that I'm not in favor of anyone trying to reestablish the Chantry's tyranny, regardless of their own magical status. Why would I practice bigotry in that manner?I just thought we were all hoping for mage freedom. Not a new flavor of mage oppression. It's pretty clear from your comments that when this war is over, should some Andrastian mages want to re-form the Circle system, you'll cut them down like dogs. That's scary.
If they want to surrender themselves to the Chantry personally, that's their business. However, if they support any system that would do such to the unwilling? That's something that needs to be stopped.brushyourteeth wrote...
Xilizhra wrote...
Well, not when the war's over. There's no need to kill people when not in hot combat. However, my point was that I'm not in favor of anyone trying to reestablish the Chantry's tyranny, regardless of their own magical status. Why would I practice bigotry in that manner?I just thought we were all hoping for mage freedom. Not a new flavor of mage oppression. It's pretty clear from your comments that when this war is over, should some Andrastian mages want to re-form the Circle system, you'll cut them down like dogs. That's scary.
I just think that if the mages are going to gain some level of independence, it should be on the grounds that they're allowed the liberty to live their lives as they see fit. And that means being a big ol' Chantry-lover if they want to be. Otherwise you're imposing a preconceived idea of what a mage should be, the same as the current Templar order does. You're the same monster, different color.
Good point. Are there suddenly more level-headed moderates hanging around than I realized?The Hierophant wrote...
The Tevinter Imperium still widely practices slavery. My main point is that regardless if someone is a templar or mage, there will always be an abuse of power. Kirkwall represents the worst of the templars while the Tevinter continues to do same for the mages.Plaintiff wrote...
No it can't. That happened over a millenium ago. The mages that are being oppressed now have no connection to Tevinter and are not at all responsible for anything related to it. They have had no hand in creating the situation in which they now live.The Hierophant wrote...
Irony much? The same can be said for the Chantry/Templars being what they are due to the Tevinter Imperium's magical reign of tyranny.Plaintiff wrote...
If you create a monster, you don't get to complain when it destroys your house.
The templar order is obviously not perfect but they are the only police force who combats demons, abominations, and magical Pol Pots. If the Order is disbanded who will protect the populace from the previously mentioned? The mages on the flip side should easily be given freedom, but are a mixed bag in terms of morals, ambition, and resistance to demons.
A good compromise would be the creation of a Hogwarts like boarding school for mages, and when they graduate they'e given conditional freedom.(E.g.abstain from forbidden magic unless given clearance, and monitored.)
The templar's ability should be taught to neutral forces like the local guard,kingsguard, and soldiers. The order would be gradually disbanded or reformed into another organization that is politically/religiously neutral like the Grey Wardens.
Ok. That's totally fair.Xilizhra wrote...
If they want to surrender themselves to the Chantry personally, that's their business. However, if they support any system that would do such to the unwilling? That's something that needs to be stopped.brushyourteeth wrote...
Xilizhra wrote...
Well, not when the war's over. There's no need to kill people when not in hot combat. However, my point was that I'm not in favor of anyone trying to reestablish the Chantry's tyranny, regardless of their own magical status. Why would I practice bigotry in that manner?I just thought we were all hoping for mage freedom. Not a new flavor of mage oppression. It's pretty clear from your comments that when this war is over, should some Andrastian mages want to re-form the Circle system, you'll cut them down like dogs. That's scary.
I just think that if the mages are going to gain some level of independence, it should be on the grounds that they're allowed the liberty to live their lives as they see fit. And that means being a big ol' Chantry-lover if they want to be. Otherwise you're imposing a preconceived idea of what a mage should be, the same as the current Templar order does. You're the same monster, different color.
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