108 réponses à ce sujet

[Xewaka]

Anarya wrote...
Totally agree about the pacing and puzzle aspects. The Sacred Ashes quest was actually my favorite questline in Origins and it didn't feel as tedious to replay, perhaps because I liked the writing for it. 
And re:Sovngarde's sky, I seriously stood there for a couple minutes just staring up at it when I played through that part.

That's why writing is so important for graphic adventure games. There is literally nothing else to the game once the puzzles have been solved; that's why Ron Gilbert and Tim Schafer are such wonderful graphic adventure creators. Their writing, the characters and worlds they create, makes you want to come back to the game.
I bet if the Fade in Origins had more than the puzzles itself, people wouldn't skip it the second time.

Oh, and I love Cassandra Jensen.

Modifié par Xewaka, 28 septembre 2012 - 10:53 .

[Salaya]

 I never understood why so much hate towards the fade part in origins. It's one of my favorite parts of the game; an original approach to the concept at gameplay and plot level. Also, it has a very beatiful design. 

When I played the "fade" part in DA2..., well. I understood that maybe some people dind't like the extension on the original one, but I never understood why the radical change in the environment. For me, the fade quest in DA2 is a clear example of the lack of quality respect Origins. 

[Xewaka]

Salaya wrote...
 I never understood why so much hate towards the fade part in origins. It's one of my favorite parts of the game; an original approach to the concept at gameplay and plot level. Also, it has a very beatiful design.

Once the puzzle was solved, most people felt like revisiting it was a chore, rather than a challenge. In general, the more replays a person does, the less likely she is to appreciate the Fade in Origins.

[upsettingshorts]

Xewaka wrote...

Salaya wrote...
 I never understood why so much hate towards the fade part in origins. It's one of my favorite parts of the game; an original approach to the concept at gameplay and plot level. Also, it has a very beatiful design.

Once the puzzle was solved, most people felt like revisiting it was a chore, rather than a challenge. In general, the more replays a person does, the less likely she is to appreciate the Fade in Origins.

Pretty much.  The first time was fine, but there are two practical issues with puzzles in RPGs:

• They rely on your abilities as a player rather than the attributes of the character you're playing, as a rule.
• In a game genre where replayability is of great importance, already-solved puzzles increase in tedium as they are repeated.

[Wulfram]

To make the fade truly deam like, it might be worth abandoning normal gameplay entirely for the segment

[upsettingshorts]

Now most puzzles in BioWare games are fairly isolated (your Towers of Hanoi, the bridge in Sacred Ashes, the board in Shale's quest, etc), so the fact the Fade is uniquely unpopular raises the question as to why. There are not threads or mods out there asking for ways to skip the Guardian's challenges in the Urn quest, why?

I think the key is that those things are easily - and most importantly, quickly solved once you have figured them out. The Fade does not get all that much faster once you've learned its secrets. There are still attribute bonuses to collect that any self-respecting gamer would feel almost obligated to grab, there are still fights to complete, and there's still a lot of ground to cover.

Throw in the feeling of isolation and silence you get when a party-based game puts you alone with your protagonist in a really long puzzle and... you get DA:O's the Fade. And Skip the Fade mods.

[filetemo]

I'd like the Fade to be like a Dalí painting. More surrealism instead of blurriness.

[Fast Jimmy]

I may be one of the few people who really enjoyed the Fade in DA:O. It was utterly daunting and confusing at first, and was a truly unique dungeon where you had to gain different skills to access different areas. In addition, you were given very cool and unique dialogue with your companions, who you could see in their dream state. It was one of the most unique types of areas in the game and, as far as level design goes, it was a masterpiece that other games could look into.

That being said, it was awfully ugly (drab and dreary, on purpose, I'm sure, to show the warped nature of the dream world) and, as far as the Fade area you encounter in the Tower, it was incredibly long and almost blind sided you with this in the middle of another dungeon. By the time I exited the Fade for the first time, I remember saying "oh yeah... I'm in the Tower. I totally forgot about that."

So, a cosmetic upgrade would be nice, and perhaps a parsing down of the length, or at least feed it to us in different segments (say these dream sequences play out not as one, long dungeon but rather as a dream the PC keeps having as they progress down the main quest, with the option to get stat bonuses and possibly even a time limit, where completing the dream and freeing yourself from the demon's influence could affect the game later on).

Regardless, I did not enjoy the rather neutered version of the Fade in DA2. The two dream scenes we were shown aside, it felt like a small, cramped area, not the sprawling open dream world that we saw in DA:O.

[SpunkyMonkey]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Xewaka wrote...

Salaya wrote...
 I never understood why so much hate towards the fade part in origins. It's one of my favorite parts of the game; an original approach to the concept at gameplay and plot level. Also, it has a very beatiful design.

Once the puzzle was solved, most people felt like revisiting it was a chore, rather than a challenge. In general, the more replays a person does, the less likely she is to appreciate the Fade in Origins.

Pretty much.  The first time was fine, but there are two practical issues with puzzles in RPGs:

• They rely on your abilities as a player rather than the attributes of the character you're playing, as a rule.
• In a game genre where replayability is of great importance, already-solved puzzles increase in tedium as they are repeated.

I have to be honest though and never really thought of the Fade as a puzzle as such, more a departure from the standard DA:O setting.

I also really enjoyed the combat in the fade and thought that the different approach to it - shapechanging and single character combat - made it different enough to enjoy.

The Fade allowed me to try other things out, such as fireball and warrior combat, which I hadn't in my first play through too.

[FieryDove]

Nixter Shepard wrote...

 I am curious as to what people's current position on the fade's role in Dragon Age 3 is. I have not seen any discussions on the topic and would be interested in knowing where the fanbase stands. 

I know that the fade in DA:O was not very popular, even hated by some (enough to create a mod that completely skips it) and thus played a very small part in DA2. 

Do you guys want to see the fade return, or do you want it to die out forever? Should there be improvements or did DA:O/DA2 get it right?

If it does return, what role (and how important of a role) should it play in the overarching plot?

I couldn't stand DAO's fade but loved the one in awakening. More like that would be fine. I would say just nix it but I hope we find out *what* the black city is one day and I'm guessing a trip to the fade is only way.

[SpunkyMonkey]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I may be one of the few people who really enjoyed the Fade in DA:O. It was utterly daunting and confusing at first, and was a truly unique dungeon where you had to gain different skills to access different areas. In addition, you were given very cool and unique dialogue with your companions, who you could see in their dream state. It was one of the most unique types of areas in the game and, as far as level design goes, it was a masterpiece that other games could look into.

That being said, it was awfully ugly (drab and dreary, on purpose, I'm sure, to show the warped nature of the dream world) and, as far as the Fade area you encounter in the Tower, it was incredibly long and almost blind sided you with this in the middle of another dungeon. By the time I exited the Fade for the first time, I remember saying "oh yeah... I'm in the Tower. I totally forgot about that."

So, a cosmetic upgrade would be nice, and perhaps a parsing down of the length, or at least feed it to us in different segments (say these dream sequences play out not as one, long dungeon but rather as a dream the PC keeps having as they progress down the main quest, with the option to get stat bonuses and possibly even a time limit, where completing the dream and freeing yourself from the demon's influence could affect the game later on).

Regardless, I did not enjoy the rather neutered version of the Fade in DA2. The two dream scenes we were shown aside, it felt like a small, cramped area, not the sprawling open dream world that we saw in DA:O.

Absolutely 100% agree with this post.

[Wulfram]

The damn bridge puzzle in sacred ashes isn't exactly quick even with a guide. Hate it.

Ideally, I'd like the Fade to be the realm of character development. Which we kind of get for the NPCs, but not so much for the protagonist. But that's tough to do for an undefined character.

Maybe we could meet a glowing kid who'll offer us a choice between three options?

[FieryDove]

Wulfram wrote...


Maybe we could meet a glowing kid who'll offer us a choice between three options?

Once was not enough for you?

[nightcobra]

Wulfram wrote...

The damn bridge puzzle in sacred ashes isn't exactly quick even with a guide. Hate it.

Ideally, I'd like the Fade to be the realm of character development. Which we kind of get for the NPCs, but not so much for the protagonist. But that's tough to do for an undefined character.

Maybe we could meet a glowing kid who'll offer us a choice between three options?

*loads bullet into gun* don't you dare bring up that travesty


although, the fade is also the realm of the dead according to mages in DA:O and we've seen ghosts throughout the series so it would be fun if we encountered important npcs who died throughout DA3 according to our choices.

[upsettingshorts]

Wulfram wrote...

The damn bridge puzzle in sacred ashes isn't exactly quick even with a guide.

It is compared to the Fade.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

• In a game genre where replayability is of great importance, already-solved puzzles increase in tedium as they are repeated.

This.  IMO the Fade should involve not puzzles but rather a lot of roleplaying.  And everything from horror to elation to confusion tossed in there.  The first time I heard of the Fade, I thought of the Dreaming from Sandman.  The land of dreams should be morally challenging, frightening, ambiguous, and always unsettling rather than full of repetitive puzzles.

[SpunkyMonkey]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

• In a game genre where replayability is of great importance, already-solved puzzles increase in tedium as they are repeated.

This.  IMO the Fade should involve not puzzles but rather a lot of roleplaying.  And everything from horror to elation to confusion tossed in there.  The first time I heard of the Fade, I thought of the Dreaming from Sandman.  The land of dreams should be morally challenging, frightening, ambiguous, and always unsettling rather than full of repetitive puzzles.

It's a fine balance though surely? I get borded with hearing the same repeated conversations, so leaning in either direction too much (puzzle or roleplaying) will lead to tedium either way.

[Sable Rhapsody]

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

It's a fine balance though surely? I get borded with hearing the same repeated conversations, so leaning in either direction too much (puzzle or roleplaying) will lead to tedium either way.

True.  Variety is the spice of life and all.  But TBH BioWare's puzzles in-game are usually fairly simplistic.  Tower of Hanoi, anyone?

[RazorrX]

I actually quite enjoyed the fade in DA:O. I do wish it looked better though, either more realistic or more surreal, like a living painting or something.

I love how it is represented in the books and wish we would see more like that in game though. How anyone could believe that a small floating island is real I have no idea.

[upsettingshorts]

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

It's a fine balance though surely? I get borded with hearing the same repeated conversations, so leaning in either direction too much (puzzle or roleplaying) will lead to tedium either way.

Sure but with something like a puzzle, once you've solved it you've solved it.  It's not like a conversation where you bring a different player character into it and see how that changes things, or a standard combat encounter that you can try to defeat with a different team or build.

[R2s Muse]

The reason I could do without a visit to the Fade in DA3 is that I'm just sort of... over it. In the first game there was a lot of rhetoric around the fact that it's very rare for folks to enter the Fade conscious, unless you're a mage. And now I feel like I've done that about a billion times for non-magey reasons. Granted, they were all extreme situations, but I don't think every storyline needs a jaunt into the fade.

So, while I see folks' dislike for gameplay reasons, my own are just story based.

[upsettingshorts]

R2s Muse wrote...

The reason I could do without a visit to the Fade in DA3 is that I'm just sort of... over it. In the first game there was a lot of rhetoric around the fact that it's very rare for folks to enter the Fade conscious, unless you're a mage. And now I feel like I've done that about a billion times for non-magey reasons. Granted, they were all extreme situations, but I don't think every storyline needs a jaunt into the fade.

So, while I see folks' dislike for gameplay reasons, my own are just story based.

While that's something of a fair point I'm not quite sure it holds up:

The Warden and Hawke are rare individuals placed in exceptional circumstances, traits any future protagonist can also be safely assumed to share.  So unless non-mage NPCs are walking in and out of the Fade like it's a Starbucks, no lore has been compromised.

Does every storyline need a jaunt in to the Fade?  Probably not in a broad sense, but given where plot threads seem to be dangling so far I would wager that magic, mages, and the Fade will continue to be important to what is going on in Thedas in this particular century.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 28 septembre 2012 - 12:29 .

[SpunkyMonkey]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

It's a fine balance though surely? I get borded with hearing the same repeated conversations, so leaning in either direction too much (puzzle or roleplaying) will lead to tedium either way.

Sure but with something like a puzzle, once you've solved it you've solved it.  It's not like a conversation where you bring a different player character into it and see how that changes things, or a standard combat encounter that you can try to defeat with a different team or build.

But does that have to be the case for DA:3? Why not introduce a puzzle which is based on variables for example - eg a typical "follow the path" puzzle based on the spelling of a name, but the solution name being a combination of whichever characters you choose, so each time it could be different.

I know it's not the greatest example, but I definitely think there's room for some puzzle-esq sections in there, and if done right, they could be character based/affected too.

Modifié par SpunkyMonkey, 28 septembre 2012 - 12:34 .

[Lady Lemonade]

I think the fade as a concept is really great. Alas, as many have said before, the level design in origins was rather boring and it could benefit from a visual re-imagination. Honestly, whenever there is a dream world in any form of media I feel that the designers don't nearly go far enough to show its strange and twisted and, well, dream like nature.