68 réponses à ce sujet

[Fast Jimmy]

Realmzmaster wrote...

If the party is able to retreat then the enemy should also be able to pursue. The party is only able to retreat if the party members are able to disengage from the enemy. The speed of the party member is greater than the enemy or there is enough distance between the party and the enemy to make retreat an option. Also will it be a controlled retreat or a run for your life retreat. If it is a run for your life retreat the enemy gets free shots at the retreating party. A controlled retreat allows for more defense.

This would also be a great way to lead enemies into a trap. 

Send a character into an area where the enemy is hunkered down, with many ranged enemies protected, and retreat with them following into an area where the rest of the party remains hidden/stealthed, allowing them to get sneak attacks/crits and also have the area covered in traps. 

The inability to tell companions to stay effectively, the lack of a stealth or trap mechanic and the complete lack of tactics by the enemy or your party to protect your ranged fighters made this a complete impossibility in DA2. I'd also love if an enemy tricked me into this exact same position. Say, by sending a small group with a weak 'commander' unit that I eliminate easily and send the enemy group fleeing in panic, while I chase to take advantage of the free pot shots... right into a nest of enemies dug in and ready for me. 

THAT would be tactical combat. 

[legbamel]

Getting Zevran was about the only DA example of that I can think of: "innocent" peasants set upon by bandits turn into a band of assassins.

[Realmzmaster]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

If the party is able to retreat then the enemy should also be able to pursue. The party is only able to retreat if the party members are able to disengage from the enemy. The speed of the party member is greater than the enemy or there is enough distance between the party and the enemy to make retreat an option. Also will it be a controlled retreat or a run for your life retreat. If it is a run for your life retreat the enemy gets free shots at the retreating party. A controlled retreat allows for more defense.

This would also be a great way to lead enemies into a trap. 

Send a character into an area where the enemy is hunkered down, with many ranged enemies protected, and retreat with them following into an area where the rest of the party remains hidden/stealthed, allowing them to get sneak attacks/crits and also have the area covered in traps. 

The inability to tell companions to stay effectively, the lack of a stealth or trap mechanic and the complete lack of tactics by the enemy or your party to protect your ranged fighters made this a complete impossibility in DA2. I'd also love if an enemy tricked me into this exact same position. Say, by sending a small group with a weak 'commander' unit that I eliminate easily and send the enemy group fleeing in panic, while I chase to take advantage of the free pot shots... right into a nest of enemies dug in and ready for me. 

THAT would be tactical combat. 

Exactly!. DA2's Hold was intentionally gimped. I should be able to position my squad mates at a diffent location and have them stay there (except for DA2's dog which you have no control over but that also makes no sense). The only way to do it in DA2 was to take control over all the members with Hold in place and then run a retreat. If you did not Hold  them while selecting all the party the companions would simply run back toward the enemy when you stopped the party. That is not how an ambush is suppose to work. It would also be nice to be able to tell individual companions to hold in different locations.
This would make for tactical combat. Also the enemy would have the same ability.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 29 septembre 2012 - 01:38 .

[Leomerya12]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Emzamination wrote...
A real soldier holds their ground even when the enemy forces seem to be overwhelming.

Because a real soldier knows if you die, you can just reload a previous save and try again with no negative consequences whatsoever 

Ooh, you're spicy.

[Leomerya12]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

If the party is able to retreat then the enemy should also be able to pursue. The party is only able to retreat if the party members are able to disengage from the enemy. The speed of the party member is greater than the enemy or there is enough distance between the party and the enemy to make retreat an option. Also will it be a controlled retreat or a run for your life retreat. If it is a run for your life retreat the enemy gets free shots at the retreating party. A controlled retreat allows for more defense.

This would also be a great way to lead enemies into a trap. 

Send a character into an area where the enemy is hunkered down, with many ranged enemies protected, and retreat with them following into an area where the rest of the party remains hidden/stealthed, allowing them to get sneak attacks/crits and also have the area covered in traps. 

The inability to tell companions to stay effectively, the lack of a stealth or trap mechanic and the complete lack of tactics by the enemy or your party to protect your ranged fighters made this a complete impossibility in DA2. I'd also love if an enemy tricked me into this exact same position. Say, by sending a small group with a weak 'commander' unit that I eliminate easily and send the enemy group fleeing in panic, while I chase to take advantage of the free pot shots... right into a nest of enemies dug in and ready for me. 

THAT would be tactical combat. 

Clever.

[Josielyn]

I never missed retreating because of the pause and play ability, and plenty of quicksaves!

[Xewaka]

Emzamination wrote...
Yes, one should have their battle strategy and supplys planned before venturing out.Running away is cowardly and dishonorable.

Oh man, that's precious.
Tactical retreat. Look it up.

Modifié par Xewaka, 29 septembre 2012 - 07:38 .

[upsettingshorts]

Emzamination wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

MichaelStuart wrote...
The only dishonor is defeat. The only coward is the person who is unwilling to do what has to be done to win. 

Honor is a fool's prize.  Glory is of no use to the dead.

.I'd rather go down taking out as much of the enemy as possible than run like a coward.

I'd rather live to fight another day on a ground of my own choosing where I have the decisive advantages. 

Even then, defeat is not dishonor, it is possible to fight above and beyond the call of duty and still lose.

A rout is a disorderly, panicked flight from battle after a breakdown of discipline and/or morale that does not consider any factors beyond immediate personal survival.  A retreat need not possess any of these features.

Emzamination wrote...

Respect however is universal and eternal

Someone hasn't seen the end of Patton.

"A slave stood behind the conqueror, holding a golden crown, and whispering in his ear a warning: that all glory is fleeting."

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 29 septembre 2012 - 08:08 .

[upsettingshorts]

Behold the usefulness of a tactical retreat as demonstrated by a hypothetical encounter inspired by the fights in Dragon Age 2:

\\

 Ms paint: Knowing is half the battle!

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 29 septembre 2012 - 08:23 .

[philippe willaume]

Emzamination wrote...

Coward's tactic -- no thank you.

Well according to Hanko Dobringer, 14th cent fencing master,
"young knight, there is no shame to run when facing 4 "peasants" aka untuntorted people in the art of fencing."

If it is good enough for him, it is good enough for me.

I think it is a good idea it could be coupled with making injury more punishing .

Phil

[Icinix]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Behold the usefulness of a tactical retreat as demonstrated by a hypothetical encounter inspired by the fights in Dragon Age 2:



 Ms paint: Knowing is half the battle!

I'll see your choke point tactic and raise you a paradropping templar army at your rear.

[upsettingshorts]

Icinix wrote...

I'll see your choke point tactic and raise you a paradropping templar army at your rear.

[Hawke]Another wave![/Hawke]

[philippe willaume]

Emzamination wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

MichaelStuart wrote...
The only dishonor is defeat. The only coward is the person who is unwilling to do what has to be done to win. 

Honor is a fool's prize.  Glory is of no use to the dead.

Respect however is universal and eternal.I'd rather go down taking out as much of the enemy as possible than run like a coward.

History is written by the winners. You can always embelish how it went down after.
In fact having you ennemy squanders its resources facing overwhelming odd is exactly what you want.

Patton got it right , "i don't want you to die for your country. i want you to make the other guy die for his country."

Read Von Clausewitx, Su ZU, Musashi and the like. you will see that buggering in off and coming back latter to kick ass is as sound as a pound.
It is not that there is no place for no retreat no surrender but really it is not as if we have to jump on every chance to have beer with Odin.

phil

Modifié par philippe willaume, 29 septembre 2012 - 08:53 .

[Icinix]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Icinix wrote...

I'll see your choke point tactic and raise you a paradropping templar army at your rear.

[Hawke]Another wave![/Hawke]

 I used to hear that in my sleep after long DA2 sessions.

[philippe willaume]

Icinix wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Behold the usefulness of a tactical retreat as demonstrated by a hypothetical encounter inspired by the fights in Dragon Age 2:



 Ms paint: Knowing is half the battle!

I'll see your choke point tactic and raise you a paradropping templar army at your rear.

hum I raise you with Vangard berserker reaver. The teleporting super mincing machine tactics to righten up the rear.

that being said you have point, this is the grandest tactic you can use in DA:2

Phil

[Dagr88]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Behold the usefulness of a tactical retreat as demonstrated by a hypothetical encounter inspired by the fights in Dragon Age 2:



 Ms paint: Knowing is half the battle!

Using your surroundings is one thing. Retreat from the battle is another.

I think DA3 don't need 2nd option. Maybe developers can implement several "decision" retreats:

- Fallback to defend rear gate.
- Retreat to reduce army casualties, because "you think" current opponents are not the enemies your should waste our manpower on.
- Avoid encounter for stealth reasons or so you would not be later framed for helping group "A" to escape/defeat group "B". (Avoid is not the same as retreat, but still...)

Modifié par Dagr88, 29 septembre 2012 - 09:11 .

[Icinix]

^^ What would be great - is if you had your normal other three crew....but the remaining party members could be positioned on the battle area if the battle was not an ambush.

So you could place a bunch of archer / mage based characters on an elevated position, your main party retreats and draws the enemy forces into their fire.

....it would be a bit of work in the game - you could then throw in dialogue options mid mission to move people around - it could almost be a mini game in itself to break up the combat.

[Swagger7]

Not to bust all your bubbles, but Patton never actually said the line about making the other guy die for his country IRL. It's just a line from the movie. It certainly fit his character, though.

I like honorable enemies who fight fair and don't run. It makes it easier to stab them in the back. Holding a line and dying may seem glorious, but in the end the dead have no use for glory.  That's my philosophy anyway.

Modifié par Swagger7, 29 septembre 2012 - 05:51 .

[nightscrawl]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Maybe a leashing system, like MMORPGs implement? I think Skyrim also had something sort of like leashing.

This would be good I think. It also makes sense in a way. Let's say there are a bunch of bandits and they're holed up in a certain area (maybe keeping lookout for their boss or what have you), and you run into them and then run away. Well if they're supposed to be guarding this one area they might not want to go too far from it. Maybe they're smart enough to "realize" that you're attempting to lure them away while another sneaks in or something.

Of course, the downside to this is that we won't be able to whittle away at the numbers of a larger group by pulling away some of the outer-rim ones. I used that tactic quite a few times with larger groups of darkspawn in DAO.

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

...I wonder if the AI will be good enough to pull that off, both in terms of setting up retreats and responding to PC attempts to retreat.  

TBH the AI in Dragon Age games is mediocre at best--I think I'd rather have no retreat option at all than deal with a poorly implemented one.

Limitations of AI is one of the nice things about the pause/play system that DA has. You can set elaborate tactics and have your companions be mostly automated, or you can do some tactics but utilize mostly pause/play so you are controlling most of your companions' actions, in addition to your own.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 29 septembre 2012 - 06:25 .