89 réponses à ce sujet

[Plaintiff]

MichaelStuart wrote...

I must also ask.
Is being young also too much of a suspension of disbelief?

I mean who many times have we seen the young hero thrust out into the world with little real experience, go on to save the world.

Well, a young hero can learn, and get stronger. Once you pass a certain age threshold, your body is just getting weaker.

I'd say anything under 18 is pushing it. If the protagonist is going to be much younger than that, then they at least need an experienced companion to accompany them (until the obligatory mentor death, naturally).

The only games I can think of where a protagonist is often egregiously young are JRPGs (looking at you, Pokemon).

[cindercatz]

QueenPurpleScrap wrote...



[*] Elves still live longer than humans so maybe up to 40 for them. {Their lives are shorter than they used to be, but that doesn't mean shorter than humans}.

[*]I'm pretty sure there's a codex that says city elves are considered old if they reach 40. It assumes their lifespans shrink in direct proportion to proximity to humans. It also turns out that the only truly long lived elves we know of were doing so by magical means. (can't get the bullet point to disappear  )
[*]Also, the 'elder' isn't necessarily that old, or even the oldest in the community. DA:O's became elder in his 30s if I remember right.

Modifié par cindercatz, 28 septembre 2012 - 02:27 .

[Emzamination]

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...


Well I doubt people live to be in their 60's or 70's in the DA Universe. Beside, if you listen to the banter between Leliana and Wynne, Wynne tells Leliana that she is 2 decade older. So unless Leliana is early to mid 40's like you presume, I think Wynne is younger than 60.

Leliana also tells wynne that she looks far younger than she actually is and seeing how leliana knew the city elfs mother when the city elf was still a child, I'd say 40 isn't a stretch.

Also yes wynne most definitely looks to be in her sixties - Link

Yeah...........  I really doubt she's 40. Bioware likes to keep all their LI young now a days. Plus, just because she knows the mother of the city elf PC doesn't mean much, plenty of people young people know people much older than them.

No they don't.

Warden - 19

Hawke - 20

Alistair - Mid twenties

Morrigan - Early thrities

leliana - Late thirties/early forties

Zevran - Early thirties

Anders - Early thrities

Fenris - Late twenties

Merrill - Early twenties

Isabela - Late thirties/early forties

Sebastian - Mid twenties

She meets the city elf mother while the city elf is still a child.

Modifié par Emzamination, 28 septembre 2012 - 02:29 .

[R2s Muse]

MichaelStuart wrote...

I must also ask.
Is being young also too much of a suspension of disbelief?

I mean who many times have we seen the young hero thrust out into the world with little real experience, go on to save the world.

I don't think it's so much suspension of disbelief. Typically, our PC is a super special snowflake. So, we're the exception to any rule at any given time, right? So, being the world's most mature 18 year old wouldn't mess with my suspension of disbelief.

That said, I'd prefer to role play someone who's a bit older. Ideally, someone in twenties, and even their thirties would be fun. I think much older, though, and we'd hear too much complaining. For some reason, I too often hear youngsters claim that 30 is "old" so pushing much past that would probably annoy folk... That's just my speculation based on anecdotes and stereotypes, of course.

Now get off of my lawn... :shakes cane:

[SpunkyMonkey]

Just wandering what the average age for this group of Warriors is............

www.youtube.com/watch

.......

Stallone - 66
Statham - 45
Jet Li - 49
Dolph Lundgren - 54
Chuck Norris - 72
Van Damme - 51
Bruce Willis - 57
Arnie - 65

That's an average age of 57, with the YOUNGEST actor being 45 for the biggest all action flick of the year.

It's all about how you look after yourself, and in a world full of magic and potions I don't think a 45+ protagonist is unfathamable.

[EricHVela]

100 years old.

... because a wizard did it.

Surely a healthy lifestyle, plenty of exercise and a mage with a penchant for tasty protein potions could lengthen the lifespan of someone.

Seriously, however, I'd go no further than the race-equivalent of human 50 simply for pushing the average age of survival in such days.

Yet, I doubt they will do this neat feature if they haven't already worked it into the plans.

If it's a few casual remarks, they might not see the point in it anyway. (Yet, that's just how I would see it.) If it causes a shift in some significant way during important events, then I think they might find it worthy of investigation. Sure. A few casual remarks is easier, but is the pay-off worth it?

[MichaelStuart]

I will remind people that age would be a choice.

[cindercatz]

One thing you have to consider too is whether the inquisitor character will survive for future games as an quasi-npc like the warden and Hawke have a chance of doing. He or she has to be within a certain range or there are just too many issues.

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

cindercatz wrote...

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

You forgot he fights the final battle and the archdemon or any other side mission you haven't finished. (Of course, it depends on what you did in the landsmeet)

Yeah, my slip. I edited it in. He is retired by the time DA:A comes around, though. He's basically a messenger and an adviser for my King Cousland warden and Anora.

Are you sure? Because I played DAA a few days and I remember Loghain saying his going to serve with the Orlaisian Grey Wardens, so he sure doesn't sound retired in mine.

Serve, but it doesn't say fight on the front lines, I'm sure. (mine had him doting on Anora, don't remember the other part) Otherwise, why wasn't he considered for building up the Fereldens' Wardens right there in Amaranthine? He just makes the trip, confers with the Warden, then he's off.


edit: He is a Warden, though. I'm sure when it's time, he'll go down into the Deep Roads and die fighting like the rest.

Modifié par cindercatz, 28 septembre 2012 - 02:38 .

[Plaintiff]

MichaelStuart wrote...

I will remind people that age would be a choice.

Well sure, but what's the point of having an age slider if it doesn't affect anything? Except very minor dialogue changes I guess.

I just don't think it's a feasible option, given the nature of the stories that Bioware tells.

I think it would be interesting for roleplay purposes if I could make my character blind, or somehow disabled, or maybe they lost a limb in a previous war. That could be awesome for characterization, but considering the things the character would be required to accomplish, it's simply not reasonable.

You could argue that player characters routinely accomplish tasks that are considered to be "impossible", but I don't think that the accomplishments of Hawke or the Warden are beyond the scope of any other person with the same fitness and skill level in the same situation. If anything, the multiple origins of DA:O kind of emphasize the fact that the Warden is a relatively ordinary dude/dudette.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 28 septembre 2012 - 02:42 .

[R2s Muse]

Plaintiff wrote...

MichaelStuart wrote...

I will remind people that age would be a choice.

Well sure, but what's the point of having an age slider if it doesn't affect anything? Except very minor dialogue changes I guess.

Good point. Unless it really affects gameplay, then they basically already have had an age option by adding wrinkles and white hair to your otherwise youthful and spry, gravity-defying character.

And, most folks will continue to choose the most smokin' hot, badass character they can generate... <_<

[Fiacre]

cindercatz wrote...

Serve, but it doesn't say fight on the front lines, I'm sure. (mine had him doting on Anora, don't remember the other part) Otherwise, why wasn't he considered for building up the Fereldens' Wardens right there in Amaranthine? He just makes the trip, confers with the Warden, then he's off.


edit: He is a Warden, though. I'm sure when it's time, he'll go down into the Deep Roads and die fighting like the rest.

Because the First warden thought he'd be too troublesome if he stayed in Ferelden. How sending him to Orlais of all places is a solution to that, I'll never understand.


And regarding Leliana's age, the toolset states 26, but the toolset also says that Bryce is 40 and Fergus 30, so... yeah.

Modifié par Fiacre, 28 septembre 2012 - 02:45 .

[Dintonta]

MichaelStuart wrote...
[...]
I must admit I'm surprised that the idea that playing as a old warrior is that much of a suspension of disbelief?

Aaahhh... Another interesting thread related to the famous Tolkien's concept!
*Jump in* (probably for nothing because I have already noticed that disbelief is probably what people, including me, find the most difficult thing to suspend...)

On-topic :
While it wouldn't hinder my own suspension of disbelief to play an old main protagonist (beyond 70), because I think such a character is exceptional by nature (and I've witnessed exceptional people beyond 80 riding in mountain, and known another who has gone through military trials a way many younger people envyed) and because, to some classes, the mental attributes are the most valuable, I think the real problem behind age, which exists since old PnP years, resides actually in the way to keep track of cumulative PC 's experience.

I don't think anybody who had lived a long life could be considered exactly the same as a true beginner. Maybe s/he has never learned to fight, disarm traps, or cast spells (which, considering how magic is handled in the DAverse, would require an explanation as why the character never attracted the attention of demons or templars before), but what has s/he done previously with her/his life?
Surely s/he would have acquired some skill at something (even if it's social skills). If not, that would also tell something about her/him which not every player would find themselves comfortable with (I personally think it would make a great story based on the 'last chance' theme, like Don Quixote, but I'm not sure that would match the DAverse style...)
I think he problem with the leveling system, over-used in RPGs as a tool to make the characters' progression happen, is that it makes everybody (including opponents) become 'badass'. I have thought, since I play RPGs (mostly PnPs), that it is a system which is bound to ruin immersion and do not help to properly develop a rich story-telling. I would prefer a more selective character evolution. I would like, for exemple, to play a bard, who could become a superlative musician, and a very persuasive character, without making her some sort of insane comic-book's super-hero.
The third edition of D&D hatched a concept - the 'feats' system - which, used in NWN2 as 'epithet feats' (given to the PC because of its actions throughout the game) could have been an interesting alternate way to 'level up' (if all skills, spells and fighting talents came from opportunities and choices made in-game).
With such a system, playing an older protagonist, already specialized at some task without being a living god, would probably be facilitated.

[Fiacre]

R2s Muse wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

MichaelStuart wrote...

I will remind people that age would be a choice.

Well sure, but what's the point of having an age slider if it doesn't affect anything? Except very minor dialogue changes I guess.

Good point. Unless it really affects gameplay, then they basically already have had an age option by adding wrinkles and white hair to your otherwise youthful and spry, gravity-defying character.

And, most folks will continue to choose the most smokin' hot, badass character they can generate... <_<

Older people can be smokin' hot and badass as well. IMHO, Bryce and Gregoir are one of the best  looking men in the whole game, while I don't find Alsitair or Cailan all that attractive.

(And I tried to use Bryce's face to make a younger, slightly different looking HN Warden and the result looked terrible, seems like he got hotter with age, actually.)

[DarkKnightHolmes]

Emzamination wrote...

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...


Well I doubt people live to be in their 60's or 70's in the DA Universe. Beside, if you listen to the banter between Leliana and Wynne, Wynne tells Leliana that she is 2 decade older. So unless Leliana is early to mid 40's like you presume, I think Wynne is younger than 60.

Leliana also tells wynne that she looks far younger than she actually is and seeing how leliana knew the city elfs mother when the city elf was still a child, I'd say 40 isn't a stretch.

Also yes wynne most definitely looks to be in her sixties - Link

Yeah...........  I really doubt she's 40. Bioware likes to keep all their LI young now a days. Plus, just because she knows the mother of the city elf PC doesn't mean much, plenty of people young people know people much older than them.

No they don't.

Warden - 19

Hawke - 20

Alistair - Mid twenties

Morrigan - Early thrities

leliana - Late thirties/early forties

Zevran - Early thirties

Anders - Early thrities

Fenris - Late twenties

Merrill - Early twenties

Isabela - Late thirties/early forties

Sebastian - Mid twenties

She meets the city elf mother while the city elf is still a child.

Uh, you're using Leliana song as an example. Never bothered to buy that. Beside I really doubt you're the youngest member. Otherwise, how old would Bhelen be then?

[Plaintiff]

R2s Muse wrote...
And, most folks will continue to choose the most smokin' hot, badass character they can generate... <_<

Hey, if I have to look at someone for hours at a time, they damn well better be hot. ): <

[QueenPurpleScrap]

For what it's worth . . .
I went to the Dragon Age wiki and looked up elves. http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Elves
City elves, due to long exposure to and contact with humans have the same lifespan.
Dalish elves, who have kept away from humans and city elves as much as possible, live longer. I could not tell if it was significantly longer or maybe just 5-10 years longer.

[Altered Idol]

Great idea!! Think about the drip-down benefits of having an older character;

- Already experienced so there'd be no need for levelling up.
- Can scold younger enemies into submission.
- Geriatric back-flips and dodges.
- Excellent fast-travel system with Seniors Cart-Bus Pass
- Walking stick of Doom.

I'm in.

[cindercatz]

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

Just wandering what the average age for this group of Warriors is............

www.youtube.com/watch

.......

Stallone - 66
Statham - 45
Jet Li - 49
Dolph Lundgren - 54
Chuck Norris - 72
Van Damme - 51
Bruce Willis - 57
Arnie - 65

That's an average age of 57, with the YOUNGEST actor being 45 for the biggest all action flick of the year.

It's all about how you look after yourself, and in a world full of magic and potions I don't think a 45+ protagonist is unfathamable.

The thing with that list is that everybody older than Lundgren, at 54 (don't know), and maybe Willis (don't know), use HGH, so the older physiques are aided by modern science, not to mention the action star maintenance routines for x amount of hours a day, state of the art medical care, modern medicine, etc.. The other thing is that none of them are warriors, fighting actual hand to hand combat every few weeks or months, marching all over nations by foot. Some of them (Jet Li, Statham, Van Damme, Stallone's picked up boxing pretty well, Norris is a karate guy) are actual martial artists, but that's still nowhere near the wear and tear of actual combat.

I fully agree with you about 45 being perfectly reasonable. You get up in the 50s though, and you've got guys like Jackie Chan and Jet Li talking about retiring (from active martial arts star roles), because their bodies are just breaking down too much, and the other guys (besides Stallone, with the HGH body by science) taking on less physically strenuous roles and less of them. And that's just to act in movies, do some choreographed fight scenes and some stuntwork.

QueenPurpleScrap wrote...

For what it's worth . . .
I went to the Dragon Age wiki and looked up elves. http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Elves
City elves, due to long exposure to and contact with humans have the same lifespan.
Dalish elves, who have kept away from humans and city elves as much as possible, live longer. I could not tell if it was significantly longer or maybe just 5-10 years longer.

Alright cool. :-) I wish we had an on-site codex for things like this, taken straight from the games. That'd be a cool addition to BSN, I think..

Modifié par cindercatz, 28 septembre 2012 - 03:14 .

[Wulfram]

Here's a graph of the age of competitors in the athletics at the 2012 olympics



I think that gives a decent idea of a realistic age range for our protagonist.

Modifié par Wulfram, 28 septembre 2012 - 03:17 .

[Jerrybnsn]

Plaintiff wrote...

MichaelStuart wrote...
Take this from someone who saw a 70 year old fight off two teenagers.

An exception, not the rule.

It's basic medical fact. When you're older all sorts of things happen to your body that make you less combat-capable.

Like you have to go to the bathroom more.  That could be a hinderance in an all out fight.

[Plaintiff]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

MichaelStuart wrote...
Take this from someone who saw a 70 year old fight off two teenagers.

An exception, not the rule.

It's basic medical fact. When you're older all sorts of things happen to your body that make you less combat-capable.

Like you have to go to the bathroom more.  That could be a hinderance in an all out fight.

Bladder meter for DA3! It would quadruple immersion! At least!

Imagine the tension when you're battling a High Dragon. Your companions drop like flies around you with no hope of recovery, while your healer hobbles to the nearest shrubbery with his thighs clenched together.

[Altered Idol]

Plaintiff wrote...

Jerrybnsn wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

MichaelStuart wrote...
Take this from someone who saw a 70 year old fight off two teenagers.

An exception, not the rule.

It's basic medical fact. When you're older all sorts of things happen to your body that make you less combat-capable.

Like you have to go to the bathroom more.  That could be a hinderance in an all out fight.

Bladder meter for DA3! It would quadruple immersion! At least!

Imagine the tension when you're battling a High Dragon. Your companions drop like flies around you with no hope of recovery, while your healer hobbles to the nearest shrubbery with his thighs clenched together.

Thats taking the ****** that is.

[mousestalker]

Plaintiff wrote...

MichaelStuart wrote...
Take this from someone who saw a 70 year old fight off two teenagers.

An exception, not the rule.

It's basic medical fact. When you're older all sorts of things happen to your body that make you less combat-willing.

Fix'd

The older you get, the more able you are to get what you want without violence. In addition, you gain levels at other-fu. The primary talent of which is, "Feeling hostile, angry? Let's you and him fight. I'll be over here, cheering the victor on."

[Fast Jimmy]

This could be pulled off, I suppose. But I doubt it would.

You could have physical modifiers (lower base strength, dexterity, endurance) but have higher "mind"modifiers (intelligence, cunning, magic). And you could have an experience modifier, where you start out with more XP and skills, but gain new XP more slowly (imagine the Gifted Perk of Fallout).

Thing is... being old - REALLY old - would be something people react to. It would result in different dialogue, it would have some influence on how any romance went, or how (as someone mentioned earlier) intimidation threats might go. Yes, a 70 year old can beat up a couple of teenagers. Just like an eight year old can get a shotgun and shoot a home invader. That doesn't mean the average NPC is going to not take threats from either type of person very likely.

And, because this would require extra dialogue, it won't happen. That's why they got rid of origins and part of the reason why they got rid of race selection - too many variables to record for. If most players aren't going to play as an old character, then they aren't going to invest money into developing specific mechanics or much custom dialogue. In addition, if they do multiple backgrounds for DA3, they'd need to factor age in, which is not easy. For instance, imagine the Human Noble Origin for DA:O if you were 70, older than your father and mother, nearly half-a-century older than your "older" brother. That does not make sense. So they would need to hand-craft the backgrounds to make you the grandfather or something.

TL;DR: Could be cool, but not going to happen in a Bioware game.

[cindercatz]

edit: ^ I like your modifiers idea, regardless. The change in developement pace would fundamentally alter your experience with your character, which would be a neat variable for replay.

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

No they don't.

Warden - 19

Hawke - 20

Alistair - Mid twenties

Morrigan - Early thrities

leliana - Late thirties/early forties

Zevran - Early thirties

Anders - Early thrities

Fenris - Late twenties

Merrill - Early twenties

Isabela - Late thirties/early forties

Sebastian - Mid twenties

She meets the city elf mother while the city elf is still a child.

Uh, you're using Leliana song as an example. Never bothered to buy that. Beside I really doubt you're the youngest member. Otherwise, how old would Bhelen be then?

Sorry to get mildy off topic, but it's at least relevant to ages for comparison's sake:

I think the Warden is variable age, gotta be. I think they all fall in the 18-mid twenties range, except maybe DN is older, dunno. Dwarven Noble doesn't quite make sense as 19. He's the middle son of a king who dies in his sixties, right?
Every warden would be just shy of 30 or older now, DN potentially in his/her 40s.

Where do we get all these ages? They don't seem right, if they're conjecture.

In Origins:
-Morrigan always seemed like she was around 19-20 to me at the start, lots of stories about growing up, very little experience outside of that, so around 30 or just shy as of the end of DA2. She just struck me as an intelligent, hot 20.

-Alistair's gotta be early twenties also, since he's the newest Grey Warden and never graduated to templar, so also around 30 as of the end of DA2, give or take.

-Leliana's got more stories, but she's still a good bit younger than Marjolaine, so I'd say she was early 30s in Origins, which puts her acquaintance with the city elf's mother at about the right time, in her early-mid twenties. She'd be around 40 at the end of DA2. (and no more little Leli's running around that we know of.. :-( makes me sad)

-Zevran makes sense more as mid twenties to me.. Remember he's been with the Crows since they bought him at 7, and while he's got stories, he doesn't have a life's work's worth of them. He's probably mid-30s as of DA2 end.

-Anders I thought was like 27ish in DA:A, so mid 30s now.

-Fenris sounds about right, or early-mid twenties, about, so tack on 8 years or so (met in year 2, right?), early thirties now

-Merrill's within a year of the Dalish Warden (same age class coming up, or it seemed in DA:O), which is young, so probably about 28-29 now

-Isabella's probably early 30s/30ish in DA:O, enough time to have love and lost and captain a pirate ship for a while, so probably 40ish now

-Sebastian sounds right, and that's year 4, so early thirties now

.. and all this means one thing is very clear to me now. We should definitely be hearing about some of the characters having had children by now besides potentially the warden and potentially Morrigan (edit: and Oghren slipped my mind, at least one more). That's part of age and living life over a span of a decade+ too. That should be reflected in the game if we're going to cover significant amounts of time and feature characters as they age. It makes zero sense that almost every major character we care about in the Dragon Age lore are all dead ends.

Modifié par cindercatz, 28 septembre 2012 - 04:26 .