191 réponses à ce sujet

[neroscuro]

EvanKester wrote...

Premise 2: A rare gun should be worth using immediately after it's unlocked
I doubt anyone can debate this. A Wraith I should be worth using even compared to a Claymore X or especially an Eviscerator X. Similarly, a Carnifex I should be worth using over a Phalanx X, and a Viper I should be worth using over the Mantis.

Premise 3: Rarer weapons should not be a requirement to play the game.
Basically, you shouldn't need a Typhoon X in order to be useful on Platinum. Nor should you need any rare cards to play on Gold, or uncommons to play on Silver. In fact, I would say that common weapons should be perfectly servicable on Gold and Platinum.

My conclusion
So the question is: Should an Ultra Rare be better than a Rare gun? Short answer: No. Longer answer: Yes, but only in their niche.

EDIT: Clarified my position.

Premise 2 is wrong, because the unlock system doesn't give you a weapon of an upper tier after you have reached level X in the lower tier. It's just by chance that you get an Ultra-Rare, doesn't matter what you already have. If this premise were true in the actual RNG, than everyone would start using ultra-rare a soon as they have one, forgetting any other weapon. You can't have your premise 2, without changing the store system.

Premise 3 is wrong, because the game has an obvious simmetry between increasing difficulty levels and weapon tiers. It doesn't make any sense if you can beat Platinum with an uncommon or a common weapon, because the reward (more than 130000 credits) would be too much appealing to make any other lower level exist: i.e. having players caring about playing bronze, silver and gold.

Discussion: The game is mainly an RPG IMO. I expect from an RPG that a rare weapon is better by every point of view than a common or uncommon weapon, at least starting from a given level. Indeed ultra-rares are generally better than rares, but because of it's easier to unlock rares than ultra-rares you start using an U-R only when you get it at level V-VI: for a clear example the duo Carnifex-Paladin. And given the increasing difficulty between
Conclusions:
You forgot to talk about the store system and the drop rates of Ultra-Rares, that's why you seem to have a point, but since the whole game is based on the RNG system and on rewarding more the higher levels of difficulty, then it's right to have powerful rare and even more powerful ultra-rare weapons and the U-R should not have any limitation that would throw them inside a niche.

[Learn To Love Yourself]

There are a lot of valid points being tossed around, and I agree to some degree with a lot of what people are saying.

I don't think the rarity of a gun should be a deciding factor for any particular field in black & white. You might expect the rarest of guns to be most valuable in the highest of difficulties (which is true in many cases), but the reasons vary. Is it there because it fills a niche well? Is it there because it is the most damaging? Is it there because it provides the most crowd control?

I believe uncommon guns are starter guns, common guns are there for slightly higher difficulties with more power and more diversity, and above that, it starts to branch out and become even more unique and situational.

There are guns made for boss killing, for crowd control, for decent damage for casters yet light weight, high damage at high risk, etc. Guns seem to start becoming niche guns at higher levels, unique in each of their own ways. That is what I love about the weapons in ME3. They are fairly diverse, and you have different tools for different jobs.

If a rare gun and an UR gun were to fill the exact same niche, then I would expect the UR to be more powerful, of course, as can be seen with the Carnifex and Paladin. They are both hand cannons and the Paladin is arguably better.

Some other guns, to me, can fill similar roles, but remain interchangable depending on the situation.
Why would you use the Graal over the GPS? Both have charged shots, weigh the same and stagger. However, one can get headshots.
How about the Wraith vs the Piranha? They are both light weight, but the Wraith has much better range and leaves you less exposed. The Piranha is very powerful, but you must be closer and exposed for a longer period of time.

I love the variety of guns, and the fact the more useful ones have their place in my arsenal, regardless of rarity.

[Rokayt]

No.

[Cyonan]

Given the variety of styles for the guns, I would say they should all have a place in higher difficulties, even the commons and uncommons. This isn't like a standard RPG where my sword of awesomeness isn't quite as good as my sword of epicness, but in reality they function in the exact same way when I equip either of them. All the weapons in a class haven't functioned the same way since Mass Effect 1.

Also, if URs were unquestionably better, we'd only have a small handful of guns that people would consider as worth using.

[capn233]

Cyonan wrote...

Given the variety of styles for the guns, I would say they should all have a place in higher difficulties, even the commons and uncommons. This isn't like a standard RPG where my sword of awesomeness isn't quite as good as my sword of epicness, but in reality they function in the exact same way when I equip either of them. All the weapons in a class haven't functioned the same way since Mass Effect 1.

Also, if URs were unquestionably better, we'd only have a small handful of guns that people would consider as worth using.

I agree, mostly.

Really I think for the most part the rarity of the weapon should affect the power to weight ratio, such that ultra rares are fairly better when unlocked, rares are better when they have a few upgrades, uncommons are better when they are maxed, and commons are not quite there even when maxed.

Ultra Rares don't need to be overwhelmingly good just because you unlock them.  Consider the Javelin vs the Widow.  If you had a Widow X but just unlocked the Javelin I, the choice should be between features... Widow X might have better power to weight, but the Javelin does get a free enhanced scope and more cover penetration.

Or consider the Wraith.  Really it should do a bit more damage at Level 1 as well as have enough accuracy that it competes with a mid to high level Claymore... the thing would be that you don't have to reload cancel it to fire 2 shots efficiently.  Or even give it 25cm innate cover penetration, that would be a feature that the Claymore doesn't get for free.

Typhoon is almost there, but whonky mechanics and the multiplier reduction means it is better than the Revenant, but really it should be better than all the weapons in the AR class... and given the weight should essentially have the highest DPS in the game.  Typhoon I vs Revenant X should not necessarily be clear-cut, but at least you get cover penetration and extra armor damage free. (Really Revenant could stand to go up in damage and weight a bit, as well as get a little more accuracy...).

[Blarg]

 I think I agree entirely with the OP. I also think that all guns should have a niche, since we have so many in this game. The commons should be baseline, with no real drawbacks or benefits. Uncommons should have a drawback/benefit or two each, and all different from any other. The same goes on in increased amounts for rares/ultra rares.

It should be simple to include these niches with so many possible stats, including spare ammo, damage, clip size, accuracy, RoF, etc. On top of that, there are various properties not listed in the game stats that could be used, such as +/- damage vs. shields/barriers/armour/health, stagger, panicking, headshot multiplier, etc. There are literally dozens of ways to make each gun unique. The trick is to make higher tier guns sufficiently better at one particular job than lower tier guns may be able to do.

[Epique Phael767]

 I wish we could unlock uncommons past X so they would be gold/plat viable.

I loved in ME2 how the weapons were just different rather than just more powerful and the way to make all of them more powerful was to buy upgrades that affected all of them.

You had a lot more choice and didn't get cheated out of lethality for choosing the weapon you liked, unlike in ths game.

[Cyonan]

capn233 wrote...
I agree, mostly.

Really I think for the most part the rarity of the weapon should affect the power to weight ratio, such that ultra rares are fairly better when unlocked, rares are better when they have a few upgrades, uncommons are better when they are maxed, and commons are not quite there even when maxed.

Ultra Rares don't need to be overwhelmingly good just because you unlock them.  Consider the Javelin vs the Widow.  If you had a Widow X but just unlocked the Javelin I, the choice should be between features... Widow X might have better power to weight, but the Javelin does get a free enhanced scope and more cover penetration.

Or consider the Wraith.  Really it should do a bit more damage at Level 1 as well as have enough accuracy that it competes with a mid to high level Claymore... the thing would be that you don't have to reload cancel it to fire 2 shots efficiently.  Or even give it 25cm innate cover penetration, that would be a feature that the Claymore doesn't get for free.

Typhoon is almost there, but whonky mechanics and the multiplier reduction means it is better than the Revenant, but really it should be better than all the weapons in the AR class... and given the weight should essentially have the highest DPS in the game.  Typhoon I vs Revenant X should not necessarily be clear-cut, but at least you get cover penetration and extra armor damage free. (Really Revenant could stand to go up in damage and weight a bit, as well as get a little more accuracy...).

Javelin and Widow are okay if you're comparing I to X since they have pretty much the same damage. However for my Infiltrators it's not a question of "which do I prefer to use?" anymore. I would rather use the Widow, but between Widow X and Javelin X only one of them can 1 shot shielded trash mobs on gold, so that's what I use because it's significantly better. I think that the Widow X(and Javelin's lower end) could use a damage boost so they can at least 1 shot a gold Marauder when put on my QFI specced for full sniper damage with full rank III consumables. I would be okay if only the Javelin X can 1 shot things like Phantoms, but the Widow just doesn't have the power to 1 shot most shielded targets.

However rares for the most part I do feel are pretty good. I think that weapons like the Scimitar should have a place on gold+ that isn't on a GI/N7 Destroyer/Turian Soldier or using full consumables. Right now we see a ton of casters using the Piranha because the Piranha is the only lightweight(by this I mean 0.5 - 1.0 weight range) shotgun that is worth using unless you have a high level Wraith. Boosting the Scimitar, Disciple, and Katana could help to fix this and give them options.

Getting rarer guns wouldn't so much as give you a power increase as it would give you variation in play style. The Javelin having stronger piercing and a built in enhanced scope is a great idea for an UR. The Wraith having cover penetration is a good idea as well. Having unique guns like the Scorpion in there as well is also good.

[RamsenC]

The best way to have decent balance and have rarity matter:

Make all non UR weapons equally effective and equally easy to get. Common, uncommon, and rare should go. Instead have URs and regular weapons, with URs being better then the regular weapons, but not so much better every other weapon becomes obsolete.

[Grunt_Platform]

neroscuro wrote...
Premise 2 is wrong, because the unlock system doesn't give you a weapon of an upper tier after you have reached level X in the lower tier. It's just by chance that you get an Ultra-Rare, doesn't matter what you already have. If this premise were true in the actual RNG, than everyone would start using ultra-rare a soon as they have one, forgetting any other weapon. You can't have your premise 2, without changing the store system.

I'm fascinated that you take issue with this one, given your overall stance. Premise 2 is built on the assumption that due to the store system, and the rarity of Ultra Rares, that in all likelihood, by the time you've unlocked all the Ultra Rares, you have most likely upgraded all the Rare cards to X.

OK, so: YES I am taking the store system into account. For Uncommons and Rares you'll probably skip around a lot on the way to maxing them. But Ultra Rares are so slow to even unlock, let alone max out, that you will almost certainly be weighing a Rank I Ultra Rare against a Rank X rare at some point. All the rush and thrill of the store system would be defeated if that shiny new gun you just unlocked is strictly inferior to everything you already have. There's a reason people are so hard on the Argus.

Forcing players to wait until URs are at rank V or better to be useful would just make the game more grind-happy.

Premise 3 is wrong, because the game has an obvious simmetry between increasing difficulty levels and weapon tiers. It doesn't make any sense if you can beat Platinum with an uncommon or a common weapon, because the reward (more than 130000 credits) would be too much appealing to make any other lower level exist: i.e. having players caring about playing bronze, silver and gold.

...Wait, so you feel a Javelin I shouldn't be worth using over a Widow X, but you do think the Javelin X should be a requirement for Platinum?.... So basically, you want people to have to grind A LOT in order to have a gold or platinum viable buid? Or do you just want your common and uncommon weapons to be worthless above Bronze and/or Silver?

I'm just going to stop here. In what way is Mass Effect 3 more RPG than action game? In what way is weapons obsoleting previous weapons even a necessity of RPGs? No two guns in the game are mechanically identical. The Carnifex and Paladin, and Eviscerator and Wraith are the closest examples, and in both cases the rarer version has trade offs compared tot he more common version. A Paladin I, after the buffs, is worth using over a Carnifex X, but a Carnifex X is also worth using over a Paladin X.

The closer I am to a maxed manifest, the more I want to play around with all the various weapons in the game. Your system would force me to stick to the handful of URs I have at rank V or better.

Cyonan wrote...
However rares for the most part I do feel are pretty good. I think that weapons like the Scimitar should have a place on gold+ that isn't on a GI/N7 Destroyer/Turian Soldier or using full consumables. Right now we see a ton of casters using the Piranha because the Piranha is the only lightweight(by this I mean 0.5 - 1.0 weight range) shotgun that is worth using unless you have a high level Wraith. Boosting the Scimitar, Disciple, and Katana could help to fix this and give them options.

Getting rarer guns wouldn't so much as give you a power increase as it would give you variation in play style. The Javelin having stronger piercing and a built in enhanced scope is a great idea for an UR. The Wraith having cover penetration is a good idea as well. Having unique guns like the Scorpion in there as well is also good.

Yeah. I agree on both counts (and with the bulk of your posts). The Piranha in particular wouldn't be nearly so prevalent if any of the other non-UR light shotguns were any good in Gold+.

I'd love it if skill was the primary barrier to entry to Gold, not weapon levels. But I have friends who haven't played in a while, and they struggle on Gold simply because they don't have that many rare weapons past rank I. So the vast majority of their arsenal is underpowered on Gold.

Modifié par EvanKester, 28 septembre 2012 - 08:33 .

[Seifer006]

If they're UR..............then shouldn't they be?

[khannoir]

No...

A Palmeto model 1842 is one of the rarest Handguns in existence...It wouldn't be my first choice in any American Civil War game. I'd love to own one... I just sure as hell wouldn't use it by choice. Likewise, there are weapon and mods in this game that are rare, I'm glad I own them, but I'll never use them.

[Daihannya]

Yes, and in my opinion they already are. But you really have to compare them to a similar weapon in the same category, and to a certain extent level.

Javelin, Black Widow > Widow
Talon, Paladin > Canifex, Arc Pistol
Wraith > Evicerator, for a caster even greater than a claymore given its weight.
Scorpion has no comparison
Saber, Harrier, Particle Rifle > All rare, common assault rifles.
Typhoon > Revenant
Indra > incisor, Viper.

[nicethugbert]

No, they should be the snazziest.

[capn233]

Cyonan wrote...

Javelin and Widow are okay if you're comparing I to X since they have pretty much the same damage. However for my Infiltrators it's not a question of "which do I prefer to use?" anymore. I would rather use the Widow, but between Widow X and Javelin X only one of them can 1 shot shielded trash mobs on gold, so that's what I use because it's significantly better. I think that the Widow X(and Javelin's lower end) could use a damage boost so they can at least 1 shot a gold Marauder when put on my QFI specced for full sniper damage with full rank III consumables. I would be okay if only the Javelin X can 1 shot things like Phantoms, but the Widow just doesn't have the power to 1 shot most shielded targets.

Sure but then again it still works pretty well with the Salarian on Gold even if it doesn't technically one-shot them.  I wouldn't mind a buff to low level Javelin (all UR's should have a narrow window for weight and damage) or Widow X.

However rares for the most part I do feel are pretty good. I think that weapons like the Scimitar should have a place on gold+ that isn't on a GI/N7 Destroyer/Turian Soldier or using full consumables. Right now we see a ton of casters using the Piranha because the Piranha is the only lightweight(by this I mean 0.5 - 1.0 weight range) shotgun that is worth using unless you have a high level Wraith. Boosting the Scimitar, Disciple, and Katana could help to fix this and give them options.

Some rares are good and some are absolute rubbish.  Geth Pulse Rifle for instance is just not worth using.  Disciple needs 100% stagger chance.  Revenant should do more damage and / or have more accuracy.

I agree that some uncommons need work too.  Really that is all of them that aren't named Mattock, Locust, Phalanx and maybe Viper.

Getting rarer guns wouldn't so much as give you a power increase as it would give you variation in play style. The Javelin having stronger piercing and a built in enhanced scope is a great idea for an UR. The Wraith having cover penetration is a good idea as well. Having unique guns like the Scorpion in there as well is also good.

Sure that covers the UR's... all should do something interesting.   As long as we don't forget to re-engineer the lower tiers.

[Credit2team]

I disagree with premise 2, an uncommon at X should be much better than any rare at 1 otherwise the ranks wouldn't mean much
The game should encourage you to keep using that rank 10 uncommon until your rare(s) are maxed

[neteng101]

thewalrusx wrote...

I disagree with premise 2, an uncommon at X should be much better than any rare at 1 otherwise the ranks wouldn't mean much
The game should encourage you to keep using that rank 10 uncommon until your rare(s) are maxed

Only a maxed Rare is better than a maxed Uncommon?  No that's totally unreasonable.  But the way they have it for a long time, Uncommons at X were good until your Rares got to mid level.  So a Level 1 rare vs. an Uncommon X, yes, use the Uncommon.  That's what I did until some rares got to mid levels at least.

So I used the Phaeston and Phalanx a lot myself, and even the Eviscerator for a while until I got the likes of the Wraith (one of my very first URs), Carnifex, GPS and Claymore up to higher levels (around 4-ish or so).  I used the GPR when I got it to X, but then again, we all know how the GPR is still deficient even post buff, even at X.  So I kept on using the Phaeston as an AR since the Revenant, Striker and Falcon were more specialty for certain classes only until they released the Harrier which was a day 1 unlock for me.

Don't much like sniper rifles and the first SMG to me worthwhile using is the Hurricane which took a while to unlock...  I used the Incisor (Uncommon) until I got the Indra (UR) because every SR in between just didn't fit my liking.  Hate hate hate the Widow!

Rares around 4-6 should match/outdo Uncommon Xs, always.  But the Argus is totally too weak, so is the GPR, considering the Mattock and Phaeston.  Really, Uncommons hardly need any more balancing, they've been made rather uber for their rarity even...  with the Viper, Locust has gotten buffed and the Raptor isn't that bad either.  Maybe only the Scimitar is a bit lacking?

[Grunt_Platform]

thewalrusx wrote...

I disagree with premise 2, an uncommon at X should be much better than any rare at 1 otherwise the ranks wouldn't mean much
The game should encourage you to keep using that rank 10 uncommon until your rare(s) are maxed

I should clarify premise 2.

A rank I Rare does NOT need to be better than a Rank X uncommon. I don't think even a rank X rare should be strictly better than a rank X uncommon. I think all of these should be worth using.

[whateverman7]

yes they should be...since they are the most difficult to obtain, make them worth obtaining

[neroscuro]

EvanKester wrote...

...Wait, so you feel a Javelin I shouldn't be worth using over a Widow X, but you do think the Javelin X should be a requirement for Platinum?.... So basically, you want people to have to grind A LOT in order to have a gold or platinum viable buid? Or do you just want your common and uncommon weapons to be worthless above Bronze and/or Silver?

It's not me, it's the store/upgrade system. I'm just telling you that your premises are wrong if you don't change the store system. You said you considered it implicitly, but I don't see any statement about it.

EvanKester wrote...
I'm just going to stop here. In what way is Mass Effect 3 more RPG than action game? In what way is weapons obsoleting previous weapons even a necessity of RPGs? No two guns in the game are mechanically identical. The Carnifex and Paladin, and Eviscerator and Wraith are the closest examples, and in both cases the rarer version has trade offs compared tot he more common version. A Paladin I, after the buffs, is worth using over a Carnifex X, but a Carnifex X is also worth using over a Paladin X.

I have discussed it before, it has been dealt with in the past and we can talk about it to the end of the Solar system, but I think that ME multyplayer is more RPG than action game. With the right build everyone can be a ME3 MP hero (that's why there are so many threads about nerfing classes and weapons).
BTW, you are comparing a Paladin I with a Carnifex X, this is a complete mistake. Only with the right mods a Paladin I could be better than a Carnifex X (it seems to me that there are inconsistent in game stats about the two heavy pistols, different from the stats given by Cyonan) but the limit with Paladin is that to get it a X you must spend 100 times more credits than you need to get the Carnifex X.

EvanKester wrote..
The closer I am to a maxed manifest, the more I want to play around with all the various weapons in the game. Your system would force me to stick to the handful of URs I have at rank V or better.

Feel free to do every combination you want, but don't ask that a weapon designed to work on Silver should be viable on Platinum (unless you set up an amazing amount of gear to support it). This mindset would shorten the differences between weapons, making pointless the way the game is now.

[BleedingUranium]

Jack Crapper wrote...

There are a lot of valid points being tossed around, and I agree to some degree with a lot of what people are saying.

I don't think the rarity of a gun should be a deciding factor for any particular field in black & white. You might expect the rarest of guns to be most valuable in the highest of difficulties (which is true in many cases), but the reasons vary. Is it there because it fills a niche well? Is it there because it is the most damaging? Is it there because it provides the most crowd control?

I believe uncommon guns are starter guns, common guns are there for slightly higher difficulties with more power and more diversity, and above that, it starts to branch out and become even more unique and situational.

There are guns made for boss killing, for crowd control, for decent damage for casters yet light weight, high damage at high risk, etc. Guns seem to start becoming niche guns at higher levels, unique in each of their own ways. That is what I love about the weapons in ME3. They are fairly diverse, and you have different tools for different jobs.

If a rare gun and an UR gun were to fill the exact same niche, then I would expect the UR to be more powerful, of course, as can be seen with the Carnifex and Paladin. They are both hand cannons and the Paladin is arguably better.

Some other guns, to me, can fill similar roles, but remain interchangable depending on the situation.
Why would you use the Graal over the GPS? Both have charged shots, weigh the same and stagger. However, one can get headshots.
How about the Wraith vs the Piranha? They are both light weight, but the Wraith has much better range and leaves you less exposed. The Piranha is very powerful, but you must be closer and exposed for a longer period of time.

I love the variety of guns, and the fact the more useful ones have their place in my arsenal, regardless of rarity.

Well said. I don't believe in things just being better, that's no fun. Every weapon has a role, and I use every one of them.

[Zeroth Angel]

Yes an ultra-rare should be better than rares. After all ultra-rares are harder to obtain. Imo it only makes sense that they would be better.

[Grunt_Platform]

Neroscuro, you and I clearly have very different ideas about what makes the game fun, and would keep us around longer. I'm cool with that. Agree to disagree?

I have modified the OP to clarify the second premise, since people were reading things into it I did not intend.

[Rifneno]

All of these "everything should be viable everywhere" arguments never explain why the hell URs take 30 times longer to unlock if they're not better. This is basic gaming. Harder to get = better.

I never thought I'd miss EverQuest, but at least nobody was saying a godender shouldn't be superior to a bronze dagger.

[DeathScepter]

yes Ultra Rare should be the best.

Common Weapons: Bronze

Uncommon Weapons: Silver

Rare Weapons: Gold

Ultra Rare: Platinum

Piranha:Platinum