191 réponses à ce sujet

[Grunt_Platform]

Rifneno wrote...

All of these "everything should be viable everywhere" arguments never explain why the hell URs take 30 times longer to unlock if they're not better. This is basic gaming. Harder to get = better.

I never thought I'd miss EverQuest, but at least nobody was saying a godender shouldn't be superior to a bronze dagger.

Let me put it this way: The Avenger doesn't need to suck for the Harrier to be better than it.

My theory is that the high DPS and accuracy of the Harrier should make it better than the Avenger. The Avenger only needs to do enough damage to be a middling light-weight substitute for stronger ARs. It should be viable on Gold, and decent for its weight, but not stellar.

There are no bronze daggers in this game. Cyonan explained this really well in an older post but I don't have it on hand.

[Haersvaelg]

Cyonan wrote...

Given the variety of styles for the guns, I would say they should all have a place in higher difficulties, even the commons and uncommons. This isn't like a standard RPG where my sword of awesomeness isn't quite as good as my sword of epicness, but in reality they function in the exact same way when I equip either of them. All the weapons in a class haven't functioned the same way since Mass Effect 1.

Also, if URs were unquestionably better, we'd only have a small handful of guns that people would consider as worth using.

Exactly. Standard RPG grind where the reward is gear that functions identically in every sense but just provides better stats than its lower level counterpart is a horrible mechanism, even more so in a game that isn't supposed to be a grind fest.

[BleedingUranium]

EvanKester wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

All of these "everything should be viable everywhere" arguments never explain why the hell URs take 30 times longer to unlock if they're not better. This is basic gaming. Harder to get = better.

I never thought I'd miss EverQuest, but at least nobody was saying a godender shouldn't be superior to a bronze dagger.

Let me put it this way: The Avenger doesn't need to suck for the Harrier to be better than it.

My theory is that the high DPS and accuracy of the Harrier should make it better than the Avenger. The Avenger only needs to do enough damage to be a middling light-weight substitute for stronger ARs. It should be viable on Gold, and decent for its weight, but not stellar.

There are no bronze daggers in this game. Cyonan explained this really well in an older post but I don't have it on hand.

Yep, I can use an Avenger and Predator together no problem on Gold, and I should be able to. The Harrier might be better overall, but it still has downsides, like clip and total capacity, reload time, and recoil.

That's fine, I don't have a problem with that. What I don't want is weapons that are better period. Luckily, that's not how they designed this game, and it's definitely not going to change.

[Grunt_Platform]

By the way, I hope no one thinks I want a buff for the Avenger right now. The under performing rares and uncommons are, and should be, a much higher priority. The rarer a gun, the higher the expectation that it at least be good, even if it's not great.

Making the Avenger more viable on Gold and Platinum would make it easier for new players to get into the game though, which should in theory extend the life of the game.

[Rifneno]

EvanKester wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

All of these "everything should be viable everywhere" arguments never explain why the hell URs take 30 times longer to unlock if they're not better. This is basic gaming. Harder to get = better.

I never thought I'd miss EverQuest, but at least nobody was saying a godender shouldn't be superior to a bronze dagger.

Let me put it this way: The Avenger doesn't need to suck for the Harrier to be better than it.

My theory is that the high DPS and accuracy of the Harrier should make it better than the Avenger. The Avenger only needs to do enough damage to be a middling light-weight substitute for stronger ARs. It should be viable on Gold, and decent for its weight, but not stellar.

There are no bronze daggers in this game. Cyonan explained this really well in an older post but I don't have it on hand.

Not seeing the difference.  The harrier's a great example of an UR because it IS better than the easier to get ARs.  Heavier?  Sure, but it's overall simply better.

[Rifneno]

EvanKester wrote...

By the way, I hope no one thinks I want a buff for the Avenger right now. The under performing rares and uncommons are, and should be, a much higher priority. The rarer a gun, the higher the expectation that it at least be good, even if it's not great.

Making the Avenger more viable on Gold and Platinum would make it easier for new players to get into the game though, which should in theory extend the life of the game.

You shouldn't hop into gold, OMG let alone platinum, as a newbie.  That's stupid.  If you want to use an avenger on gold it's because you're a skilled player that's giving yourself a challenge, not because a lvl 5 with an avenger III who installed the game two hours ago should be able to play platinum.  Jesus.

[Rokayt]

Weight implies power.

The Harrier is good because it weights bricks.
The Revenant is good as well.

[Rifneno]

Rokayt wrote...

Weight implies power.

The Harrier is good because it weights bricks.
The Revenant is good as well.

And the typhoon? 

[Cyonan]

Rifneno wrote...

All of these "everything should be viable everywhere" arguments never explain why the hell URs take 30 times longer to unlock if they're not better. This is basic gaming. Harder to get = better.

I never thought I'd miss EverQuest, but at least nobody was saying a godender shouldn't be superior to a bronze dagger.

Using the logic of harder to get = better, then the Eagle, Crusader, Valiant, and Hurricane should be the best weapons in the game by a considerable margin, even over URs.

The game would get very boring if most of the community was only ever using 4 weapons, and the rest of them were complaining about being kicked because they weren't using those 4 weapons.

[Rokayt]

Rifneno wrote...

Rokayt wrote...

Weight implies power.

The Harrier is good because it weights bricks.
The Revenant is good as well.

And the typhoon? 

Was bugged in a way that nobody expected. (Recoil.)

Some people once again swear by it.
The weapon charge up mechanics..... Are nasty.
But.... Its not something thats going to go away.

Modifié par Rokayt, 28 septembre 2012 - 11:43 .

[Cyonan]

Rokayt wrote...

Was bugged in a way that nobody expected. (Recoil.)

Some people once again swear by it.
The weapon charge up mechanics..... Are nasty.
But.... Its not something thats going to go away.

Technically that wasn't bugged

The Coalesced for Earth DLC actually shows that it was told to do exactly that.

Could have been a typo, though =P

[Rokayt]

Cyonan wrote...

Rokayt wrote...

Was bugged in a way that nobody expected. (Recoil.)

Some people once again swear by it.
The weapon charge up mechanics..... Are nasty.
But.... Its not something thats going to go away.

Technically that wasn't bugged

The Coalesced for Earth DLC actually shows that it was told to do exactly that.

Could have been a typo, though =P

A lot of bugs are caused by typo's

[Rifneno]

Cyonan wrote...

Using the logic of harder to get = better, then the Eagle, Crusader, Valiant, and Hurricane should be the best weapons in the game by a considerable margin, even over URs.

The game would get very boring if most of the community was only ever using 4 weapons, and the rest of them were complaining about being kicked because they weren't using those 4 weapons.

Yes and no.  If you play casually, promotional weapons are easier to get than URs.  Promotional weapons are all but guaranteed every 2 weeks.  There's no such timetable for URs.  URs come at a pace dictated by the RNG and the player's effort.  I've seen plenty of people with more N7s than URs.

Rokayt wrote...

Was bugged in a way that nobody expected. (Recoil.)

Some people once again swear by it.
The weapon charge up mechanics..... Are nasty.
But.... Its not something thats going to go away.

Meh.  The damage is still lackluster until it's high level with lots of consumables on it.  Which it shouldn't be for its incredible weight, ramp up mechanics, and rarity.

I still use it, but I use it because I love the machine gun.  I still sometimes feel like I'm wrong for bringing it into a gold game because I should be bringing something I can do better with.  And there really shouldn't be anything you can do better with on a destroyer.

[Rokayt]

Charged up, it should be almost as strong as the Harrier against armor, shields, and barriers.
It should at least do as well as the Revenant against troopers...

Times like these make me regret my consumable whoring tendencies, Jeps, and the like.

[Cyonan]

Rifneno wrote...
Yes and no.  If you play casually, promotional weapons are easier to get than URs.  Promotional weapons are all but guaranteed every 2 weeks.  There's no such timetable for URs.  URs come at a pace dictated by the RNG and the player's effort.  I've seen plenty of people with more N7s than URs.

So using the absolute worst scenario you get N7s slower than URs, and that's relevant how?

It is easier to get URs because there is no timetable. No matter how much somebody plays they will not get more than 1 N7 every 2 weeks unless Bioware specifically says so. You can essentially brute force the RNG with spending a lot of time playing, but not the Commendation Pack.

and then you've got 4 weapons that are the best and what the majority of the game is using. That would get boring quick.

Modifié par Cyonan, 29 septembre 2012 - 12:16 .

[Chealec]

DeathScepter wrote...

yes Ultra Rare should be the best.

Common Weapons: Bronze

Uncommon Weapons: Silver

Rare Weapons: Gold

Ultra Rare: Platinum

Piranha:Platinum

Uh huh - so nobody should play platinum until they've been in-game for what, 6 months?

What's the point in that? I'd imagine lots of people wouldn't even stick with a game that long. The fact that URs take so long to max out is actually a pretty good argument as to why they shouldn't be better than rares... you shouldn't need to play for 6 months to have a platinum viable load-out.

It's not like the game even works like that anyway; the Viper is an excellent choice on the Salarian Engineer on gold/platium and that's only uncommon ... the Phalanx is a great secondary weapon on any difficulty, the Mattock is actually really good if you don't mind clicking like a maniac, especially if you want to manage your cooldowns ... and these are all uncommon weapons.

Modifié par Chealec, 29 septembre 2012 - 12:19 .

[Captain J. Sunshine]

If commons could be viable at gold or platinum then any person and the dog could play platinum

[Grunt_Platform]

Rifneno wrote...
Not seeing the difference.  The harrier's a great example of an UR because it IS better than the easier to get ARs.  Heavier?  Sure, but it's overall simply better.

The Harrier is one of the best guns in the game precisely because it has outstanding DPS, with great accuracy and stability. Its only drawbacks are moderate weight and a miniscule ammo capacity.

You could double the Avenger's DPS and it still wouldn't be better than the Harrier (maybe in a simple damage/weight assessment but... no). And I don't think it needs its DPS doubled anyway. It just needs to not be so useless on Silver+.

Rifneno wrote...

You shouldn't hop into gold, OMG let alone platinum, as a newbie.  That's stupid.  If you want to use an avenger on gold it's because you're a skilled player that's giving yourself a challenge, not because a lvl 5 with an avenger III who installed the game two hours ago should be able to play platinum.  Jesus.

Whoa whoa whoa. That's not what I said at all.

First off: Right now, the Mantis is a gold viable gun. Not the best choice, but not terrible. Can you name me a single reason why the Avenger shouldn't be the same? [EDIT: And yes, the Avenger barely passes muster as "viable" in that it manages to do damage.. but it's hardly effective or efficient. It's not even in the running for decent caster guns.]

Second: Unlock rates on Bronze and Silver are really slow. I see no reason why a player who can beat Insanity easily, has a decent understanding of how to play the game and  level 20 characters with maxed commons shouldn't be able to at least join a gold match without a bunch of Rares. You hit a point where it's seriously just a grind to get weapons that are decent for Gold.

I don't want the Avenger to be a top-tier weapon. I just don't get why it sucks so much, even for its low weight and decent handling.

The unlock system is garbage, and is a terrible way to filter for player skill.

Modifié par EvanKester, 29 septembre 2012 - 12:26 .

[Chealec]

Captain J. Sunshine wrote...

If commons could be viable at gold or platinum then any person and the dog could play platinum

... the Mantis IS gold viable, so is the Avenger (though you may as well use a Phaeston as it's basically a direct upgrade) - and I use the Shuriken as a secondary on my SE on gold/platinum.

[neroscuro]

Chealec wrote...

[...]
Uh huh - so nobody should play platinum until they've been in-game for what, 6 months?

What's the point in that? I'd imagine lots of people wouldn't even stick with a game that long. The fact that URs take so long to max out is actually a pretty good argument as to why they shouldn't be better than rares... you shouldn't need to play for 6 months to have a platinum viable load-out.

It's not like the game even works like that anyway; the Viper is an excellent choice on the Salarian Engineer on gold/platium and that's only uncommon ... the Phalanx is a great secondary weapon on any difficulty, the Mattock is actually really good if you don't mind clicking like a maniac, especially if you want to manage your cooldowns ... and these are all uncommon weapons.

That's why you can play using adepts that are powerful enough to be viable on gold (at least) without using more than a phalanx as a backup weapon. I played for 2-3 months using almost my Asari Adept. Warp-Throw Warp-Throw...

[pantherdan]

Doesn't make sense that you are "rewarded" an Ultra Rare and it is a crappy weapon. Why would you strive to get an Ultra Rare bag of trash?

[Chealec]

neroscuro wrote...

Chealec wrote...

[...]
Uh huh - so nobody should play platinum until they've been in-game for what, 6 months?

What's the point in that? I'd imagine lots of people wouldn't even stick with a game that long. The fact that URs take so long to max out is actually a pretty good argument as to why they shouldn't be better than rares... you shouldn't need to play for 6 months to have a platinum viable load-out.

It's not like the game even works like that anyway; the Viper is an excellent choice on the Salarian Engineer on gold/platium and that's only uncommon ... the Phalanx is a great secondary weapon on any difficulty, the Mattock is actually really good if you don't mind clicking like a maniac, especially if you want to manage your cooldowns ... and these are all uncommon weapons.

That's why you can play using adepts that are powerful enough to be viable on gold (at least) without using more than a phalanx as a backup weapon. I played for 2-3 months using almost my Asari Adept. Warp-Throw Warp-Throw...

So you should only be able to play as a Biotic, or on lower difficulty levels for 6 months? That makes no sense to me whatsoever...

[Grunt_Platform]

pantherdan wrote...

Doesn't make sense that you are "rewarded" an Ultra Rare and it is a crappy weapon. Why would you strive to get an Ultra Rare bag of trash?

Premise 1: There should be no such thing as a garbage gun in at Rare and Ultra Rare levels.

Weapons can be balanced without making URs crappy. We're really close to that already, at least comparing good rares to good URs.

[cgj]

URs should be better than rares, rares better than uncomons and uncomons better than commons
that's just how it is

when sitting on a maxed manifest, URs should always (almost) be the best option
i can't see the problem with that.

best option doesn't mean only option nor required option for higher difficulties
you can still use your rares if you enjoy the playstyle and higher challenge but you shouldn't be surprised with your URs doing better

[Eckswhyzed]

neroscuro wrote...

Chealec wrote...

[...]
Uh huh - so nobody should play platinum until they've been in-game for what, 6 months?

What's the point in that? I'd imagine lots of people wouldn't even stick with a game that long. The fact that URs take so long to max out is actually a pretty good argument as to why they shouldn't be better than rares... you shouldn't need to play for 6 months to have a platinum viable load-out.

It's not like the game even works like that anyway; the Viper is an excellent choice on the Salarian Engineer on gold/platium and that's only uncommon ... the Phalanx is a great secondary weapon on any difficulty, the Mattock is actually really good if you don't mind clicking like a maniac, especially if you want to manage your cooldowns ... and these are all uncommon weapons.

That's why you can play using adepts that are powerful enough to be viable on gold (at least) without using more than a phalanx as a backup weapon. I played for 2-3 months using almost my Asari Adept. Warp-Throw Warp-Throw...

So then if the Soldier is my favourite class I should be locked out of platinum for months, even if I have the skills required?