191 réponses à ce sujet

[Chealec]

pantherdan wrote...

Doesn't make sense that you are "rewarded" an Ultra Rare and it is a crappy weapon. Why would you strive to get an Ultra Rare bag of trash?

Why would you strive to get any of the Ultra Rares? Just enjoy playing the game and they'll come along eventually *shrugs* There are enough Rare (and even uncommon) weapons to be perfectly successful in gold - even platinum... it's not like you need the URs to play (which is a good thing IMO).

It's not a job, it's not like you're working at it to earn enough coins to buy the new guns... hell, I buy as many JEPs as PSPs because I like blowing crap up with Cobras ... and I'm happy to get level IV consumables as I actually use them (it's some of the level IIIs that I never use, like strength enhancer or targeting VI).

[neroscuro]

Chealec wrote...

So you should only be able to play as a Biotic, or on lower difficulty levels for 6 months? That makes no sense to me whatsoever...

I have always thought that this is one of the main design flaw of the game: biotics classes must be on par with classes that rely on a weapon, but the best biotics are uncommon and rare cards, the best weapons are ultra-rares.

Modifié par neroscuro, 29 septembre 2012 - 12:47 .

[Grunt_Platform]

neroscuro wrote...

Chealec wrote...
So you should only be able to play as a Biotic, or on lower difficulty levels for 6 months? That makes no sense to me whatsoever...

I have always thought that this is one of the main design flaw of the game: biotics classes must be on par with classes that rely on a weapon, but the best biotics are uncommon and rare cards, the best weapons are ultra-rares.

Yeah, that's why it'd be nice to see the rare weapons measuring up more to the URs a bit better. Especially the caster guns, most of which are kinda bleh right now. There's a reason the Piranha's been so overused—Its only decent competitor is one of the more middling URs!

I mean, the best weapon classes can already compete when they're using sub-optimal builds.

Modifié par EvanKester, 29 septembre 2012 - 12:52 .

[cgj]

Chealec wrote...


The fact that URs take so long to max out is actually a pretty good argument as to why they shouldn't be better than rares.

what has been seen cannot be unseen ....
do you really mean that ? lol

[Mindlog]

As an unbiased observer.
Absolutely.

[Chealec]

neroscuro wrote...

Chealec wrote...

So you should only be able to play as a Biotic, or on lower difficulty levels for 6 months? That makes no sense to me whatsoever...

I have always thought that this is one of the main design flaw of the game: biotics classes must be on par with classes that rely on a weapon, but the best biotics are uncommon and rare cards, the best weapons are ultra-rares.

... but they're not, which is kinda the point. They all have a trade off vs rares, Javelin is better than the Widow for damage but weighs an absolute tonne - the SI is probably better off with the Widow.

The Black Widow is better than the Viper for raw damage output... but again it weighs an absolute tonne (you can get 200% CD with a Viper on the SE).

Wraith vs Claymore - debatable.

Talon vs Piranha?

Typhoon vs Revenant (especially once you take weight into account - again)?

Scorpion vs Falcon?

It's only really the Harrier vs any other Assault rifle where the UR is the definite go-to choice on most classes... if weight is really an issue you can use the Mattock.

[Chealec]

cgj wrote...

Chealec wrote...


The fact that URs take so long to max out is actually a pretty good argument as to why they shouldn't be better than rares.

what has been seen cannot be unseen ....
do you really mean that ? lol

Yes

[neroscuro]

Eckswhyzed wrote...

So then if the Soldier is my favourite class I should be locked out of platinum for months, even if I have the skills required?

I don't pretend this is right, see the other comment of mine for details. Even if you are able to play platinum, you can't without the right gear and characters: that's why this is an RPG IMO.
I'm not an elitist and I've always been against the nerf of rare weapons that were good to let play the average players (as me) in Platinum, but I think that Ultra-Rares have to be better than rares. If you like to play platinum without high level N7 weapons, then you have (had) carnifex, piranha and krysae for that purpose. Those weapons were very good, be it by accident or by benevolent BW developers. Doing it a lot is boring, but it was feasible.

Modifié par neroscuro, 29 septembre 2012 - 01:08 .

[cgj]

Chealec wrote...

cgj wrote...

Chealec wrote...


The fact that URs take so long to max out is actually a pretty good argument as to why they shouldn't be better than rares.

what has been seen cannot be unseen ....
do you really mean that ? lol

Yes

i don't buy it !

could you explain in details ?

[Chealec]

cgj wrote...

Chealec wrote...

cgj wrote...

Chealec wrote...


The fact that URs take so long to max out is actually a pretty good argument as to why they shouldn't be better than rares.

what has been seen cannot be unseen ....
do you really mean that ? lol

Yes

i don't buy it !

could you explain in details ?

I thought I did - in the rest of the post you were quoting...

Basically, if you want to contribute in a meaningful way in a game then having the best weapons will help, not as much as experience perhaps, but it will help.

If it takes 6 months or more to get the best weapons up to a decent level then you're going to be handicapped for 6 months or more... why would you play a game, other than an MMO maybe, where you're going to be gimped for such a long time?

ME3 MP is a bit of fun - if you're a good player, but new, you shouldn't feel like you're ineffectual in a game because some twit like me wanders into your lobby wielding a level IX or X Ultra Rare (yes, all bar 2 of my URs are now at least level VIII) and then proceeds to kill everything just because I've got better guns.

Maxing out your rares is a far more achieveable goal within a sensible timeframe - and they should be good enough to be effective on any difficulty level, good enough so that they're not outshone by the URs which people will only get by playing a lot.

If you make URs "must have" weapons you're just going to encourage even more people to farm FBW/G/G (or FBG/C/P) to get those weapons before they can even "start" playing the game.

[AnimaMachinae]

I agree wholeheartedly that UR should be the best, any nerfer who disputes this is either indoctrinated or simply trying to ruin the fun of others.

[Rifneno]

cgj wrote...

Chealec wrote...


The fact that URs take so long to max out is actually a pretty good argument as to why they shouldn't be better than rares.

what has been seen cannot be unseen ....
do you really mean that ? lol

what is this I don't even

Those who work much harder and much longer shouldn't be rewarded?  What is this, communism for video games?

[Grunt_Platform]

Rifneno wrote...

cgj wrote...

Chealec wrote...
The fact that URs take so long to max out is actually a pretty good argument as to why they shouldn't be better than rares.

what has been seen cannot be unseen ....
do you really mean that ? lol

what is this I don't even

Those who work much harder and much longer shouldn't be rewarded?  What is this, communism for video games

Oh god the C-word! I've created a monster!

I have meddled with things man ought not to know!

[Chealec]

Rifneno wrote...

cgj wrote...

Chealec wrote...


The fact that URs take so long to max out is actually a pretty good argument as to why they shouldn't be better than rares.

what has been seen cannot be unseen ....
do you really mean that ? lol

what is this I don't even

Those who work much harder and much longer shouldn't be rewarded?  What is this, communism for video games?

It's a game, not a job... you're supposed to have fun, that's why you should play - if you need a reward as an incentive to play, maybe you should try Diablo or something? Better yet, competitive SC2, you can actually make real money at that.

Besides, why do URs have to be better to be a reward? Isn't the added diversity reward enough?

[mpompeo27]

neteng101 wrote...

The biggest problem I see is the Rares in the game that simply doesn't work... eg. Disciple, GPR. Just because there's a few duds doesn't mean we should go around nerfing all the other Rare/URs. And the Falcon/Krysae are over-nerfed if you ask me, they need to both be rebuffed. The Paladin nees a 4-clip, and the BW/Saber needs to be buffed most among the URs. Saw a BF3 soldier with AR just shoot and shoot and shoot and shoot so many times with a Saber X to down a single Banshee on Gold.

The Saber is a fantastic weapon and needs no buffs but requires exceptional aim. If the BF3 soldier you saw really had that difficult a time killing a Banshee with a Saber X, it's because he is a horrible shot, and is not an accurate reflection of the Saber's effectiveness. My Saber is only at V and it slaughters everything, but I have to be spot on with my aim and score consistent headshots, and even though bosses don't register headshots it is not that difficult to bring them down because of it's high effectiveness against armor.

[Rifneno]

Chealec wrote...

It's a game, not a job... you're supposed to have fun, that's why you should play - if you need a reward as an incentive to play, maybe you should try Diablo or something? Better yet, competitive SC2, you can actually make real money at that.

Besides, why do URs have to be better to be a reward? Isn't the added diversity reward enough?

And by "Diablo" you mean "every multiplayer RPG ever made except this one".  Nope.  It's a design flaw here, not a lack of space communism there.

[cgj]

Chealec wrote...


I thought I did - in the rest of the post you were quoting...

Basically, if you want to contribute in a meaningful way in a game then having the best weapons will help, not as much as experience perhaps, but it will help.

If it takes 6 months or more to get the best weapons up to a decent level then you're going to be handicapped for 6 months or more... why would you play a game, other than an MMO maybe, where you're going to be gimped for such a long time?

ME3 MP is a bit of fun - if you're a good player, but new, you shouldn't feel like you're ineffectual in a game because some twit like me wanders into your lobby wielding a level IX or X Ultra Rare (yes, all bar 2 of my URs are now at least level VIII) and then proceeds to kill everything just because I've got better guns.

Maxing out your rares is a far more achieveable goal within a sensible timeframe - and they should be good enough to be effective on any difficulty level, good enough so that they're not outshone by the URs which people will only get by playing a lot.

If you make URs "must have" weapons you're just going to encourage even more people to farm FBW/G/G (or FBG/C/P) to get those weapons before they can even "start" playing the game.

would it be a PVP  shooter game, i would agree (which is why i don't like BF3 that much) but this is co-op shooter and RPG

considering the RPG aspect of Mass effect, URs being the hardest and most time demanding weapons to get, these should be the best
considering the shooter and action game aspect of Mass effect, URs shouldn't be a must

URs should be the best especially because of how long it takes to get them but these shouldn't be a must that would lock you up from part of the game for 6 months

so let's see:
rares are more than enough for the highest difficulty that is platinium  heck some rares outclasse some URs
before platinium, the highest difficulty was gold and uncomons are good for gold

so you don't need URs to play the game it's just a +, so there's no problem with these being the best if and only if this is a co-op game

cause if it were pvp it would be unfair to newbies (exactly the case with BF3)

so , conclusion: URs are to be the best and there's no problem with it in ME3 because:
-it takes a long time to get those, so those should be very good
-those aren't needed to play the higher difficulties, so you don't get lockep up from part of the game
-this is co-op so it's not even unfair to newer players

[Grunt_Platform]

Rifneno wrote...

Chealec wrote...
It's a game, not a job... you're supposed to have fun, that's why you should play - if you need a reward as an incentive to play, maybe you should try Diablo or something? Better yet, competitive SC2, you can actually make real money at that.

Besides, why do URs have to be better to be a reward? Isn't the added diversity reward enough?

And by "Diablo" you mean "every multiplayer RPG ever made except this one".  Nope.  It's a design flaw here, not a lack of space communism there.

A design flaw? The hell it is.

Mass Effect 3's system is a fusion of the gear systems of online shooters (which generally strive to have balanced weapons), and RPGs (lots of customization and upgrading your gun).

For the loot system you want, play Mass Effect 1, where there's little meaningful difference between an Avenger I, an Equalizer IV, and an HMWSR X, except that the latter is better in every way.

In Diablo or most other online RPGs, the difference between any two one-handed melee weapons is a basically a single figure: DPS. If it's semi-roguelike, then there's also the random modifiers. The Harrier and the Typhoon alone are more different than any two melee weapons in Diablo III. The differences between enchantments are (mostly) the same as different ammo consumables and weapon mods. (And don't tell me the difference in D3 is bigger since a level 1 club has 1% of the DPS of a level 60 sword).

EDIT: There isn't really much role-playing in ME3's multiplayer. And the roll-playing is limited entirely to the unlock system, which I think we can all agree has serious issues.

...Granted, I'm generally not a fan of the way progression is handled in the standard RPG to begin with. Forces a constant gear change-over that results in a lot of same-y weapons and racing at top speed just to keep pace with the monsters at your current level. The real gameplay only starts when you're done just picking whichever gun keeps your DPS at the same relative level to the enemy's HP, and when your decisions actually change your playstyle.

Modifié par EvanKester, 29 septembre 2012 - 01:59 .

[Rifneno]

EvanKester wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Chealec wrote...
It's a game, not a job... you're supposed to have fun, that's why you should play - if you need a reward as an incentive to play, maybe you should try Diablo or something? Better yet, competitive SC2, you can actually make real money at that.

Besides, why do URs have to be better to be a reward? Isn't the added diversity reward enough?

And by "Diablo" you mean "every multiplayer RPG ever made except this one".  Nope.  It's a design flaw here, not a lack of space communism there.

A design flaw? The hell it is.

Mass Effect 3's system is a fusion of the gear systems of online shooters (which generally strive to have balanced weapons), and RPGs (lots of customization and upgrading your gun).

For the loot system you want, play Mass Effect 1, where there's little meaningful difference between an Avenger I, an Equalizer IV, and an HMWSR X, except that the latter is better in every way.

In Diablo or most other online RPGs, the difference between any two one-handed melee weapons is a basically a single figure: DPS. If it's semi-roguelike, then there's also the random modifiers. The Harrier and the Typhoon alone are more different than any two melee weapons in Diablo III. The differences between enchantments are (mostly) the same as different ammo consumables and weapon mods.

No.  There's 51 weapons in this game.  Thinking that they can all be "just different" and some not just plain better is simply insane.  You can't make meaningful variety with that many weapons.  It cannot be done.

[cgj]

death_for_sale wrote...

It is an RPG at heart. UR's should be the equivalent of Top Tier drops, the best of the best. Rares are not that hard to come by and should be the next best.

I have always felt that Rare weapons should be balanced for Gold, Uncommon for Silver, and Starter weaps for Bronze. UR's should be more the default Platinum weapon and balanced for that level.

devs stated somewhere that they do balance commons around bronze, uncommons around silver and rares around gold

nothing said about URs though. my guess is that they were balanced around gold before and maybe now around platinium

Modifié par cgj, 29 septembre 2012 - 02:04 .

[Grunt_Platform]

Rifneno wrote...
No.  There's 51 weapons in this game.  Thinking that they can all be "just different" and some not just plain better is simply insane.  You can't make meaningful variety with that many weapons.  It cannot be done.

I've accepted in the OP and in the thread that "better" weapons are inevitable. But with the current selection of weapons, many of them are actually completely distinct from others, but severely underpowered. 

The Harrier, for example, will always be one of the best guns in the game unless its DPS is dropped, or its weight is driven up like crazy. But there is nothing about that which necessitates how bad the Geth Pulse Rifle is. There are just very few cases where two weapons are similar enough that one can't help but completely outclass the other in all cases. The GPR should be a decent caster gun.

Or, with Shotguns, name one reason why the Piranha and the Wraith have to be the only light weight shotguns to achieve damage parity. Why can't the Scimitar be a viable alternative, even if it's not as optimal as the rarer alternatives?

Modifié par EvanKester, 29 septembre 2012 - 02:07 .

[Rifneno]

EvanKester wrote...

Rifneno wrote...
No.  There's 51 weapons in this game.  Thinking that they can all be "just different" and some not just plain better is simply insane.  You can't make meaningful variety with that many weapons.  It cannot be done.

I've accepted in the OP and in the thread that "better" weapons are inevitable. But with the current selection of weapons, many of them are actually completely distinct from others, but severely underpowered. 

The Harrier, for example, will always be one of the best guns in the game unless its DPS is dropped, or its weight is driven up like crazy. But there is nothing about that which necessitates how bad the Geth Pulse Rifle is. There are just very few cases where two weapons are similar enough that one can't help but completely outclass the other in all cases. The GPR should be a decent caster gun.

Or, with Shotguns, name one reason why the Piranha and the Wraith have to be the only light weight shotguns to achieve damage parity. Why can't the Scimitar be a viable alternative, even if it's not as optimal as the rarer alternatives?

And I never said more common weapons shouldn't be VIABLE.  Just that URs should be overall the best.  For many of them, that's just not the case.

[Chealec]

cgj wrote...

would it be a PVP  shooter game, i would agree (which is why i don't like BF3 that much) but this is co-op shooter and RPG

...

so , conclusion: URs are to be the best and there's no problem with it in ME3 because:
-it takes a long time to get those, so those should be very good
-those aren't needed to play the higher difficulties, so you don't get lockep up from part of the game
-this is co-op so it's not even unfair to newer players

Don't you have more fun when you're able to equally pull your weight though? With it being a co-op game I'm much happier now that I know the game, classes, weapons, maps and enemies well enough to be able to pull my weight (and carry a round or two if necessary) and make sure we extract (most of the time) in gold ... learning the ropes when I first started doing gold months ago, having to rely on other people to pick up my slack because I didn't really know my way around was bad enough; being further handicapped by having much worse guns? Nah...

I'm not sure I'd have bothered to stick around with the game long enough to get high level URs had that been the case... now that I've got them I'm glad that I can still run around as a Graal wielding Krogan, or Claymore wielding HI, that I can still have 190% CD on a HE with a Carnifex and make heads pop while my drone zaps them... that, in short, I'm not badly gimped by choosing to use Rares over Ultra-Rares.

Do you really want to feel you've had those choices limited once you've got all your URs at X? Like you're going to have to deliberately handicap yourself to use a different loadout? Will you just stop playing then, feeling that you've "completed the game" (I known some people who did actually stop playing, except for weekend events, once they'd maxed their URs)... I dunno... if the URs aren't needed to do the harder difficulties (as they're currently not) then why make them, overall, better than rares? That's just making the game easier for anyone who's played long enough to be better at the game anyway, surely?

Anyway - it's stupid o' clock here now, I'm off to bed

[Grunt_Platform]

Rifneno wrote...

And I never said more common weapons shouldn't be VIABLE.  Just that URs should be overall the best.  For many of them, that's just not the case.

OK, I guess we're in rough agreement. I just think Ultra-Rares should have a slight, but narrow advantage.

Like, the Typhoon should be stronger than the Revenant, but it's kept from strictly outclassing the Revenant by its greater weight (meaning there's still a trade-off for using it over the Revenant, even if it's "better" overall). ... Of course, I think both the Revenant and the Typhoon could use a buff. But uh. basically I think the "betterness" of ultra-rares should be a meta-game advantage, not a strict numerical advantage. This way every gun can be viable, and a large percentage of them can even be good.


...I do think there's a legitimate case for the Wraith and Paladin belonging in the Rare class. Not because they're not terribly strong, but because they're just not terribly unique, and are clearly balanced to be roughly on par with much more common weapons, making it hard to balance them around the UR "Must be at least decent at Rank I" restriction.

I really love the weight system for balance. It's a subtle but clever thing. It lets the Harrier have some small disadvantages against the Phaeston and Mattock, while rewarding system mastery for those who realize the highly accurate, high-DPS weapon is usually worth the added weight. Lets it be better without eliminating those corner cases where lower weight is still preferable. It's a subtle difference, and it fits with the notion of "rarer weapons are better but less forgiving," thanks to the importance of cooldown cycles.

Modifié par EvanKester, 29 septembre 2012 - 02:23 .