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Should Ultra Rares be the best guns in the game?


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#126
Rifneno

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EvanKester wrote...

...I do think there's a legitimate case for the Wraith and Paladin belonging in the Rare class. Not because they're not terribly strong, but because they're just not terribly unique, and are clearly balanced to be roughly on par with much more common weapons, making it hard to balance them around the UR "Must be at least decent at Rank I" restriction.


I think a case could be made for the black widow too.  Since sniper mods kind of suck (ammo is meh, and lol at the scope), the piercing on it is almost a nonfactor because it's no loss using the piercing mod.  In the end it's just a very heavy, harder hitting viper.  And when you factor in its terribad reload time the dps difference between a viper X and a BW X is very, very small even with reload canceling.  If you want to count the valiant, well... show's over for the BW.

#127
cgj

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Chealec wrote...


I dunno... if the URs aren't needed to do the harder difficulties (as they're currently not) then why make them, overall, better than rares? That's just making the game easier for anyone who's played long enough to be better at the game anyway, surely?

Anyway - it's stupid o' clock here now, I'm off to bed :)


good night :)

though as my last stand i will say:

if you don't make them better, what justify their UR status then ?
you would say it's the way they work then, like the scorpion, it's unique
but if you do that, isn't that even more frustrating for average players ?
surely it would solve the problem of newer players being by default theorically less effective than people with UR unlocked, but still, they can't enjoy fully their experience of the game because it's taking them 6 months to be able to enjoy the variety

#128
Grunt_Platform

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Rifneno wrote...

EvanKester wrote...

...I do think there's a legitimate case for the Wraith and Paladin belonging in the Rare class. Not because they're not terribly strong, but because they're just not terribly unique, and are clearly balanced to be roughly on par with much more common weapons, making it hard to balance them around the UR "Must be at least decent at Rank I" restriction.


I think a case could be made for the black widow too.  Since sniper mods kind of suck (ammo is meh, and lol at the scope), the piercing on it is almost a nonfactor because it's no loss using the piercing mod.  In the end it's just a very heavy, harder hitting viper.  And when you factor in its terribad reload time the dps difference between a viper X and a BW X is very, very small even with reload canceling.  If you want to count the valiant, well... show's over for the BW.

I think "widow with multiple shots!" is special enough to deserve being UR, but there is a case to be made. But it does need buffs right now, especially since the Viper's been the recipient of some truly awesome buffs.

...I wonder how much the BW would have to weigh to be balanced as genuinely being a three-shot Widow (same damage etc.)

#129
Grunt_Platform

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cgj wrote...

Chealec wrote...


I dunno... if the URs aren't needed to do the harder difficulties (as they're currently not) then why make them, overall, better than rares? That's just making the game easier for anyone who's played long enough to be better at the game anyway, surely?

Anyway - it's stupid o' clock here now, I'm off to bed :)


good night :)

though as my last stand i will say:

if you don't make them better, what justify their UR status then ?
you would say it's the way they work then, like the scorpion, it's unique
but if you do that, isn't that even more frustrating for average players ?
surely it would solve the problem of newer players being by default theorically less effective than people with UR unlocked, but still, they can't enjoy fully their experience of the game because it's taking them 6 months to be able to enjoy the variety


The Scorpion is special enough that even getting it at Rank I is a special treat.

Even the Harrier, which is a souped-up full-auto Mattock is plenty good at Rank I, and even if you dropped its Rank X damage to balance it (:crying:) it would still be a damn good weapon. Though I think it would be better to buff the more common ARs to be better first. It's sad how much better a Harrier I is compared to a Revenant X.

Modifié par EvanKester, 29 septembre 2012 - 02:39 .


#130
Rifneno

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EvanKester wrote...

I think "widow with multiple shots!" is special enough to deserve being UR, but there is a case to be made. But it does need buffs right now, especially since the Viper's been the recipient of some truly awesome buffs.

...I wonder how much the BW would have to weigh to be balanced as genuinely being a three-shot Widow (same damage etc.)


I don't know.  I doubt they'd ever do it.  The BW's damage is too far from the real widow for me to even take the name seriously.  It's barely over half.  Especially for the majority that have the widow maxed and the BW at low levels.

#131
oO Stryfe Oo

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Hmm...I'll admit that my style of thinking was much like Rhifeno's before reading this thread. However, after reading this thread specifically posts like Mendevelosa and Jack Crapper posted, I honestly like the idea of guns getting harder to use as the rarity increases.

Great thread, OP. It's not everyday that a thread will get me to actually change the way I feel about something. In fact, it's never happened before, until now.

#132
.458

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The game balance already fails when it comes to niches. I agree niches should exist, and weapons should be available which are superior at the niche. It doesn't work that way though, as soon as the weapon is popular it'll be hurt to prevent the popularity...even if it is only popular on particular classes or characters.

When they do the same thing, I do think an ultra rare of the same level as the rare should be CLEARLY superior. Not necessarily that a level 1 ultra rare would be better than a 10 rare. But a 10 versus 10 the ultra rare should be hands down no contest quite an improvement.

#133
DatFeel

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Yes.

But, the way you'd think by looking around here, it's a giant circle jerk for uncommon weapons. Seems like people want them to be the best guns.

#134
SilentCO1

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Yes, but not so much better that lower level guns are made unusable.

#135
darkpassenger2342

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Without question.

#136
Rifneno

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oO Stryfe Oo wrote...

Hmm...I'll admit that my style of thinking was much like Rhifeno's before reading this thread. However, after reading this thread specifically posts like Mendevelosa and Jack Crapper posted, I honestly like the idea of guns getting harder to use as the rarity increases.

Great thread, OP. It's not everyday that a thread will get me to actually change the way I feel about something. In fact, it's never happened before, until now.


Why?  Honest question.  Why should we be almost punished for investing the time and effort into getting the top tier?

#137
DatFeel

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Mendelevosa wrote...

Similar to what another poster said. Statistically, ultra rares should be better than the other weapons, but at the same time they should be less versatile and harder to use. Basically, the higher the rarity, the higher the difficulty of use and the lower the versatility.

For example, commons should be inferior to higher-tier weapons, but easier to use. (i.e. Avenger is low powered, but very easy to use.)

Uncommons should be stronger than commons with more versatility, but weaker than rares and URs. (i.e. Phaeston with its all-around stats and Raptor with its high spare ammo and good RoF and power)

Rares should be stronger than commons and uncommons, but with specialized mechanics for more specific purposes, making them harder to use and less versatile. (i.e. Acolyte with its damage bonus to shields and barriers, but requirement of charging before firing and the Revenant with its high damage and high RoF, but its low accuracy and high recoil)

Ultra rares should be the top of the line weapons, being statistically stronger than the other weapons, but should be the hardest to use and the least versatile. (i.e. Scorpion for it's high damage and crowd control abilities, but it's awkward mechanics and difficulty of effective use, the Particle Rifle for its high damage and large beam duration, but its requirement to charge the beam for a few seconds before it's true potential is unleashed, and the Javelin for its insane damage, ability to see through walls and its high innate penetration ability, but its heavy weight and low spare clip capacity.

With this tier setup, weapons of higher rarity are better than lower tier weapons in terms of stats, but are harder to use and less versatile, preventing them from becoming the "go-to" weapons. If all weapons followed this structure, then true balance could be achieved.


This probably has to be the dumbest thing I've ever heard on here, and that's saying something. Good job.

#138
SirFragsALot333

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Ultra-rares should be better. Whether you use them or not should be out of choice and not out of peer pressure from the gaming community. Each weapon has a difficulty level in which it can dominate. It's up to each individual if they want to try a common weapon at a higher difficulty or the opposite. Just because a 9mm shot to the head would kill someone, doesn't mean a rock wouldn't do the same if thrown properly.Sometimes skill is required.

#139
Battlepope190

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They should have unique abilities/traits that make them stand above everything else, but should they all be the most powerful weapons? I don't think so personally.

If they are, that's all anyone is gonna use.

Modifié par Battlepope190, 29 septembre 2012 - 09:45 .


#140
RecoonHoodie

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TMB903 wrote...

Yes



#141
Kogia

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DatFeel wrote...

Mendelevosa wrote...

Similar to what another poster said. Statistically, ultra rares should be better than the other weapons, but at the same time they should be less versatile and harder to use. Basically, the higher the rarity, the higher the difficulty of use and the lower the versatility.

For example, commons should be inferior to higher-tier weapons, but easier to use. (i.e. Avenger is low powered, but very easy to use.)

Uncommons should be stronger than commons with more versatility, but weaker than rares and URs. (i.e. Phaeston with its all-around stats and Raptor with its high spare ammo and good RoF and power)

Rares should be stronger than commons and uncommons, but with specialized mechanics for more specific purposes, making them harder to use and less versatile. (i.e. Acolyte with its damage bonus to shields and barriers, but requirement of charging before firing and the Revenant with its high damage and high RoF, but its low accuracy and high recoil)

Ultra rares should be the top of the line weapons, being statistically stronger than the other weapons, but should be the hardest to use and the least versatile. (i.e. Scorpion for it's high damage and crowd control abilities, but it's awkward mechanics and difficulty of effective use, the Particle Rifle for its high damage and large beam duration, but its requirement to charge the beam for a few seconds before it's true potential is unleashed, and the Javelin for its insane damage, ability to see through walls and its high innate penetration ability, but its heavy weight and low spare clip capacity.

With this tier setup, weapons of higher rarity are better than lower tier weapons in terms of stats, but are harder to use and less versatile, preventing them from becoming the "go-to" weapons. If all weapons followed this structure, then true balance could be achieved.


This probably has to be the dumbest thing I've ever heard on here, and that's saying something. Good job.


Yet for me your comment would win that award, it's the equivalent of a heckler from the crowd, you offer nothing to the debate, just the throwing of a verbal rotten cabage.

I think I agree with Mendelevosa, all weapons should be viable (note I say viable, not optimal) in all levels, but as weapons get rare & UR they should be more specific and ultimately have greater optimisation for certain builds and in certain situations, but not make other weapns entirely obsolete.

So the basic starter common weapons should still have a place in a platinum match, they should be the weapons to learn the ropes with, so be the most forgivng, but not be obsolete and therefore worthess once you gain rarer weapons, why would they be out on the battlefield otherwise? So to make them such they should be lighter and have the largest clip capacity, this allows for them to be more forgiving when learning for lower characters, but still have a use as they allow you to fire more and spray more ammo and be used as sidearms for other more powerful weapons you find later.

Then the uncommon weapons should be slight variations to the common ones. So lose some of the clip capacity, but gain extra damage, or gain a bit of weight but hit harder, simple changes like that.

Then the rares should start to do something slightly different, be more specific in their uses and maybe start to optimise more with certain builds and characters.

The URs should do something truely unique, the Scorpion is a great example of this, the Acolyte should be an UR too.

I just don't like the idea that nce you gain an UR of a weapon type you wouldn't ever look at other weapons again, obsoletion is not a good thing. Besides there's no need for URs or rares to just be better versions of common or uncommon weapons, because the game already has that mechanic in the I, II, III, IV, V - X upgrading system.

#142
FreddyFoxtrot

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wow, a wall of text to reply to a oneliner who replied to a wall of text, just wow...

anyway, the problem here is just again the way bioware decided we were going to unlock stuff

in 'regular' games, where stuff is purchased on a shop or looted (this is an RPG after all, no matter if it is sorcery and arrows or space magic and bullets) weapons DO get better on increasing rarity, because that is how it IS supposed to be, you know it, i know it, everyone knows. this topic is as old as the game itself, i find your lack or original conversation disturbing

first one calling the quote wins a cookie, im off to borderlands 2 cya

#143
-Sxx-

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It should just be unique, which makes it better to an extent. Have different qualities and uses to normal weapons, meaning you need to understand the ups and downs of the weapon. It shouldn't automatically be better.

#144
darkpassenger2342

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why do people make 7 paragraph posts?
to those that do: please, condense your thoughts when you communicate them.

#145
Guest_Aotearas_*

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Captain J. Sunshine wrote...

If commons could be viable at gold or platinum then any person and the dog could play platinum


No. Simply no.

Viable does not mean the gun will make any difficulty a cakewalk. Viable implies that within a specific window, the weapon will be enough to succeed to a varying degree. That means a common weapon would need great mastery of the gun and the respective gameplay to succeed with on Gold.

I have no idea what kind of logic you were using to come to that conclusion of yours.



edit://

darkpassenger2342 wrote...

why do people make 7 paragraph posts?
to those that do: please, condense your thoughts when you communicate them.


Why should anybody else be held responsible for your lack of patience or motivation to read through such posts? Look at yourself.

Modifié par Neofelis Nebulosa, 29 septembre 2012 - 10:40 .


#146
Kogia

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FreddyFoxtrot wrote...

wow, a wall of text to reply to a oneliner who replied to a wall of text, just wow...



No, a wall of text is a post without paragaphs, this one was broken down into smaller chunks for the many web lurkers who are unable to read for more than 5 lines of text before their brain implodes.

darkpassenger2342 wrote...

why do people make 7 paragraph posts?
to those that do: please, condense your thoughts when you communicate them.


?? So no paragraphs would be better? Or was it just too much for your little head to cope with, do I need to twitterise it for you?

Modifié par Kogia, 29 septembre 2012 - 11:01 .


#147
Shpoon

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Yes they should be better as they are so difficult to obtain. BioWare has set the game up this way, & therefore the ultra rare weapons should be the best.

#148
darkpassenger2342

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Kogia wrote...

darkpassenger2342 wrote...

why do people make 7 paragraph posts?
to those that do: please, condense your thoughts when you communicate them.


?? So no paragraphs would be better? Or was it just too much for your little head to cope with, do I need to twitterise it for you?


you did fine right there.. making progress.

 see? that didnt take an essay.

#149
Kogia

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I agree, sometimes, but I feel for you that it's required always.

#150
Mendelevosa

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DatFeel wrote...

Mendelevosa wrote...

Similar to what another poster said. Statistically, ultra rares should be better than the other weapons, but at the same time they should be less versatile and harder to use. Basically, the higher the rarity, the higher the difficulty of use and the lower the versatility.

For example, commons should be inferior to higher-tier weapons, but easier to use. (i.e. Avenger is low powered, but very easy to use.)

Uncommons should be stronger than commons with more versatility, but weaker than rares and URs. (i.e. Phaeston with its all-around stats and Raptor with its high spare ammo and good RoF and power)

Rares should be stronger than commons and uncommons, but with specialized mechanics for more specific purposes, making them harder to use and less versatile. (i.e. Acolyte with its damage bonus to shields and barriers, but requirement of charging before firing and the Revenant with its high damage and high RoF, but its low accuracy and high recoil)

Ultra rares should be the top of the line weapons, being statistically stronger than the other weapons, but should be the hardest to use and the least versatile. (i.e. Scorpion for it's high damage and crowd control abilities, but it's awkward mechanics and difficulty of effective use, the Particle Rifle for its high damage and large beam duration, but its requirement to charge the beam for a few seconds before it's true potential is unleashed, and the Javelin for its insane damage, ability to see through walls and its high innate penetration ability, but its heavy weight and low spare clip capacity.

With this tier setup, weapons of higher rarity are better than lower tier weapons in terms of stats, but are harder to use and less versatile, preventing them from becoming the "go-to" weapons. If all weapons followed this structure, then true balance could be achieved.


This probably has to be the dumbest thing I've ever heard on here, and that's saying something. Good job.


Way to respond with a single sentence that does nothing to contribute to the discussion. As a matter of fact, it's ironic because you response was very idiotic. Next time try to explain your point instead of insulting someone for their views.