53 réponses à ce sujet

[Melca36]

Monica21 wrote...

Melca36 wrote...

Mr Gaider has already stated that Alistair will never have any children except the OGB.

He never has children with Anora if you marry them off and he never has children if he rules alone.

I seem to recall him saying if Anora rules alone or with MCousland...there is never any children either.
So down the line there will be a new royal line ruling Ferelden.   

Did he state specifically that Alistair will never have children, or did he say that it's very difficult for a Grey Warden to produce a child?

He said Alistair would never concieve any children with anyone (the OGB is the only exception if you did the DR)

Let me see if I can find the link

[sylvanaerie]

I prefer they leave the endings vague actually. Spelling out exactly what happens removes any chance of a 'head canon' ending for the story. They told the important part (the Blight was stopped). Now I get to imagine what kind of life Gawain Cousland had with Anora, without having Bioware 'ruin' it for me.

It's bad enough that I know there will be no kids for Alistair or Cousland. Anora/Cousland shippers would sh*t a sailboat if Bioware came out and said, "They fought over who rules the throne", or "Were miserable together", and made it inflexible canon. At least, this way I can imagine when he returns from Amaranthine, the smile on the Queen's face isn't just for show to the people of Ferelden, but a genuine welcome.

As for the 'no kids' thing.  Why is everyone so quick to jump on Cailan's back for being solely responsible for the lack of heir?  The truth could be that both, for whatever reason, are incapable of having kids.  I suspect a lot of players wanted to believe Anora could be fertile since it meant a bunch of mini-Cousland Wardens running around the palace in their head-canon.  It may also be she used birth control as well (since it is known how to prevent pregnancy in Thedas), and she doesn't strike me as the 'maternal type' even with an army of nannies.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 15 octobre 2012 - 06:55 .

[Eveangaline]

What if your human noble has a political marriage with alistair but has Zevran as a lover? Have they confirmed no kids for all wardens or just specifically Alistair not having kids?

[sylvanaerie]

Eveangaline wrote...

What if your human noble has a political marriage with alistair but has Zevran as a lover? Have they confirmed no kids for all wardens or just specifically Alistair not having kids?

I don't have the link but I recall reading it on the boards.  I believe it pertained more to 'no heir' for Ferelden after the current generation is gone, more than 'no kids at all' from the warden, but a warden married to Alistair or Anora will not have any heirs.  I am assuming this means political marriage to Ali as well.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 15 octobre 2012 - 08:01 .

[Eveangaline]

sylvanaerie wrote...

Eveangaline wrote...

What if your human noble has a political marriage with alistair but has Zevran as a lover? Have they confirmed no kids for all wardens or just specifically Alistair not having kids?

I don't have the link but I recall reading it on the boards.  I believe it pertained more to 'no heir' for Ferelden after the current generation is gone, more than 'no kids at all' from the warden, but a warden married to Alistair or Anora will not have any heirs.  I am assuming this means political marriage to Ali as well.

Damn, so being married to Alistair keeps Zev from knocking you up? Does Alistair keep walking in on them?

[sylvanaerie]

Eveangaline wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

Eveangaline wrote...

What if your human noble has a political marriage with alistair but has Zevran as a lover? Have they confirmed no kids for all wardens or just specifically Alistair not having kids?

I don't have the link but I recall reading it on the boards.  I believe it pertained more to 'no heir' for Ferelden after the current generation is gone, more than 'no kids at all' from the warden, but a warden married to Alistair or Anora will not have any heirs.  I am assuming this means political marriage to Ali as well.

Damn, so being married to Alistair keeps Zev from knocking you up? Does Alistair keep walking in on them?

It's just the "Heir" thing.  Like maybe the warden can have children, she just can't place them in line for the throne.  Cause...yea, half elven bastards sired by an assassin...I can really see the Landsmeet going for that...

Though the idea of Alistair ****blocking the Warden and Zevran amuses me to no end.  At one point I can imagine Zev just saying "Oh come join us then" or locking the damn door!.  After all, Alistair did say he'd love to 'cross borders' though I don't think that's quite what Zev had in mind that banter...

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 15 octobre 2012 - 08:29 .

[Estelindis]

Melca36 wrote...

He said Alistair would never concieve any children with anyone (the OGB is the only exception if you did the DR)

Let me see if I can find the link 

This saddens me.  Even if my city elf warden sacrifices herself so Alistair can live and rule well as king, he won't have children with someone else?  I preferred to leave him to rule without Anora so that he could make his own choice about marriage (yes, I know, missed out golden age, etc.), but I guess that was for nothing from this point of view.  Interestingly, it does show that Alistair was mistaken in his decision to end his relationship with my Warden because they could never have a child together (apart from the fact that nobles wouldn't have accepted an elf as queen), given that it seems he couldn't have a child with anyone else anyway.  I mean, I totally understand why he made the choice and can sympathise with it, but it's just sad that he made this huge sacrifice of his personal happiness - and hers - and it was all for nothing.

I'd love to see that quote...

My goodness, but this just makes the ending of DA:O even more tragic as far as I'm concerned.  It also complicates the question of which playthrough I'd want to have as my personal "canon" ending...

Modifié par Estelindis, 15 octobre 2012 - 09:03 .

[Eveangaline]

sylvanaerie wrote...

Eveangaline wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

Eveangaline wrote...

What if your human noble has a political marriage with alistair but has Zevran as a lover? Have they confirmed no kids for all wardens or just specifically Alistair not having kids?

I don't have the link but I recall reading it on the boards.  I believe it pertained more to 'no heir' for Ferelden after the current generation is gone, more than 'no kids at all' from the warden, but a warden married to Alistair or Anora will not have any heirs.  I am assuming this means political marriage to Ali as well.

Damn, so being married to Alistair keeps Zev from knocking you up? Does Alistair keep walking in on them?

It's just the "Heir" thing.  Like maybe the warden can have children, she just can't place them in line for the throne.  Cause...yea, half elven bastards sired by an assassin...I can really see the Landsmeet going for that...

Though the idea of Alistair ****blocking the Warden and Zevran amuses me to no end.  At one point I can imagine Zev just saying "Oh come join us then" or locking the damn door!.  After all, Alistair did say he'd love to 'cross borders' though I don't think that's quite what Zev had in mind that banter...

Well obviously you're not going to tell the landsmeet who's baby it is. I mean if Alistair can't make his own, no harm in pretending this one's his.

But I agree, the ****block option is much funnier to imagine

[sylvanaerie]

Eveangaline wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

Eveangaline wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

Eveangaline wrote...

What if your human noble has a political marriage with alistair but has Zevran as a lover? Have they confirmed no kids for all wardens or just specifically Alistair not having kids?

I don't have the link but I recall reading it on the boards.  I believe it pertained more to 'no heir' for Ferelden after the current generation is gone, more than 'no kids at all' from the warden, but a warden married to Alistair or Anora will not have any heirs.  I am assuming this means political marriage to Ali as well.

Damn, so being married to Alistair keeps Zev from knocking you up? Does Alistair keep walking in on them?

It's just the "Heir" thing.  Like maybe the warden can have children, she just can't place them in line for the throne.  Cause...yea, half elven bastards sired by an assassin...I can really see the Landsmeet going for that...

Though the idea of Alistair ****blocking the Warden and Zevran amuses me to no end.  At one point I can imagine Zev just saying "Oh come join us then" or locking the damn door!.  After all, Alistair did say he'd love to 'cross borders' though I don't think that's quite what Zev had in mind that banter...

Well obviously you're not going to tell the landsmeet who's baby it is. I mean if Alistair can't make his own, no harm in pretending this one's his.

But I agree, the ****block option is much funnier to imagine

Aside from being blonde, Zev and Ali look nothing alike.  And while elf/human liasons always produce a human child, they don't look entirely human either (Feynriel).  If this is the new art style they are going with, there's no way a Cousland Warden could pass off Zevran's kid as Alistair's.  Not to mention we go back to the whole "no heir for Ferelden thing", meaning there will be no little Zevrans sitting on the throne of Ferelden. 

Kids, maybe, heirs, no.

[Fast Jimmy]

Eh. No one will have any kids. Or, if they do, it will be a cookie cutter child that will show up regardless of any romance flags or imported choices. Once they start introducing children, it will only lead to future demands of having that child as the PC or a companion for future games... which becomes incredibly thorny.

Another problem with the concept of the import flags... If Allistair and Anora were rulers as part of the canon, having a child (or multiple) could be a possibility, if the writers wanted to. But Allistair having a child with anyone else but the Warden would result in fanrage from the devoted Allistair fans who romanced Allistair and would call him a worthless cad for having a child 10 years+ in the future.

[Eveangaline]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Eh. No one will have any kids. Or, if they do, it will be a cookie cutter child that will show up regardless of any romance flags or imported choices. Once they start introducing children, it will only lead to future demands of having that child as the PC or a companion for future games... which becomes incredibly thorny.

Another problem with the concept of the import flags... If Allistair and Anora were rulers as part of the canon, having a child (or multiple) could be a possibility, if the writers wanted to. But Allistair having a child with anyone else but the Warden would result in fanrage from the devoted Allistair fans who romanced Allistair and would call him a worthless cad for having a child 10 years+ in the future.

Wouldn't it only happen if they married him off to anora? I doubt they'd rage much about him having children with someone they chose to talk him into marrying

sylvanaerie wrote...

Aside from being blonde, Zev and
Ali look nothing alike.  And while elf/human liasons always produce a
human child, they don't look entirely human either (Feynriel).  If this
is the new art style they are going with, there's no way a Cousland
Warden could pass off Zevran's kid as Alistair's.  Not to mention we go
back to the whole "no heir for Ferelden thing", meaning there will be no
little Zevrans sitting on the throne of Ferelden. 

Kids, maybe, heirs, no.

Er, I don't know what you mean about not looking entirely human. Feynriel had a normal human model. He had a longish face, but that's not inhuman, that's just a longish face.

Also isn't there a lot of theories saying alistair himself is the child of an elf warden from the books?

Modifié par Eveangaline, 15 octobre 2012 - 09:18 .

[Estelindis]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Allistair having a child with anyone else but the Warden would result in fanrage from the devoted Allistair fans who romanced Allistair and would call him a worthless cad for having a child 10 years+ in the future.

Maybe for some people, but not for me.  As I posted earlier, I'm a huge fan of Alistair and played the romance with him and my city elf, but I'm actually disappointed by the fact that he can't seem to have any child but the OGB.  I was totally in favour of him having a child - or children - with whoever his queen would have been.  Either my character would have been dead and would have wanted him to move on with his life after mourning her, or, if she was still around due to the Dark Ritual, she would have accepted that he saw it as his duty to beget an heir and wished him the best in spite of being heartbroken that she couldn't have a child with him.

Honestly, while there may be some people out there who would be just as outraged as you say, it's far from being the case for all devoted fans of Alistair and his romantic subplot.  

[Fast Jimmy]

Estelindis wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Allistair having a child with anyone else but the Warden would result in fanrage from the devoted Allistair fans who romanced Allistair and would call him a worthless cad for having a child 10 years+ in the future.

Maybe for some people, but not for me.  As I posted earlier, I'm a huge fan of Alistair and played the romance with him and my city elf, but I'm actually disappointed by the fact that he can't seem to have any child but the OGB.  I was totally in favour of him having a child - or children - with whoever his queen would have been.  Either my character would have been dead and would have wanted him to move on with his life after mourning her, or, if she was still around due to the Dark Ritual, she would have accepted that he saw it as his duty to beget an heir and wished him the best in spite of being heartbroken that she couldn't have a child with him.

Honestly, while there may be some people out there who would be just as outraged as you say, it's far from being the case for all devoted fans of Alistair and his romantic subplot.  

That's entirely possible. However, you may be thinking of it too much from a story POV, not a game programmer point of view. I just doubt they would program, write, animate and voice a child just for the small percent of players who would have the ability for a child to exist in the story (either by Allistair or by the Warden, or a combination of the two). 

Granted, it shouldn't be required to take a developer's job into consideration when thinking about your favorite characters, but it is an unfortunate reality of game development. If this was a book, tv show or movie and an author could just write one story, this would be doable. But for a game that allows dozens, if not hundreds, of choices affect each game? That's writing dozens, if not hundreds, of tiny stories, all of which cost money to make. They'd rather tell the ones with the most bang for their buck (meaning the most commonly chosen/most widely discussed choices).

[goofyomnivore]

I think they should stick the 'bone throwing' in the codices. They're just third party rumors anyways, so if the player doesn't agree with Anora and so and so Cousland appeared happy and in love at the Feredlen Ball on 9:42 Dragon Age observed by scholar John Doe or something. They can just say the hell with that scholar.

If you're going to make cut scenes for returning characters have it make sense and not be fan service for the hell of it.

[sylvanaerie]

Eveangaline wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Eh. No one will have any kids. Or, if they do, it will be a cookie cutter child that will show up regardless of any romance flags or imported choices. Once they start introducing children, it will only lead to future demands of having that child as the PC or a companion for future games... which becomes incredibly thorny.

Another problem with the concept of the import flags... If Allistair and Anora were rulers as part of the canon, having a child (or multiple) could be a possibility, if the writers wanted to. But Allistair having a child with anyone else but the Warden would result in fanrage from the devoted Allistair fans who romanced Allistair and would call him a worthless cad for having a child 10 years+ in the future.

Wouldn't it only happen if they married him off to anora? I doubt they'd rage much about him having children with someone they chose to talk him into marrying

sylvanaerie wrote...

Aside from being blonde, Zev and
Ali look nothing alike.  And while elf/human liasons always produce a
human child, they don't look entirely human either (Feynriel).  If this
is the new art style they are going with, there's no way a Cousland
Warden could pass off Zevran's kid as Alistair's.  Not to mention we go
back to the whole "no heir for Ferelden thing", meaning there will be no
little Zevrans sitting on the throne of Ferelden. 

Kids, maybe, heirs, no.

Er, I don't know what you mean about not looking entirely human. Feynriel had a normal human model. He had a longish face, but that's not inhuman, that's just a longish face.

Also isn't there a lot of theories saying alistair himself is the child of an elf warden from the books?

Theories, nothing proven, and it happens in a book outside the game's continuity.  I'm still on the fence about Fiona.  Also, everyone (in the game) commonly believes Alistair to be the son of Maric and a human Redcliffe maid.

And Feynriel himself says 'when i was in the alienage, I thought everyone could tell i was an elf, but among the dalish, i see now how well I blended in'. He may look 'human' but there's enough about him you can tell he isn't completely human either, and even he recognizes himself as 'different'.  There is a 'different cast' to his features. 

And I said "Kids maybe, heirs no" by which I meant, she may be able to have children with Zev, but it's been confirmed by Bioware no heir, so no passing off the elf's young uns as Alistair's children.

[Fast Jimmy]

strive wrote...

I think they should stick the 'bone throwing' in the codices. They're just third party rumors anyways, so if the player doesn't agree with Anora and so and so Cousland appeared happy and in love at the Feredlen Ball on 9:42 Dragon Age observed by scholar John Doe or something. They can just say the hell with that scholar.

If you're going to make cut scenes for returning characters have it make sense and not be fan service for the hell of it.

Codex entries? 


Yuck. If that's what the import flags lead to, then I think many fans would suddenly not care if Bioware scrapped them altogether.

[Estelindis]

Fast Jimmy wrote...
you may be thinking of it too much from a story POV, not a game programmer point of view. I just doubt they would program, write, animate and voice a child just for the small percent of players who would have the ability for a child to exist in the story (either by Allistair or by the Warden, or a combination of the two). 

Not so.  If Alistair had a child with his non-Anora, non-Warden queen, there's no rule that this character would even have to show up physically.  The simple fact of Alistair having a child would alter the political situation in Ferelden and beyond and this could be incorporated into the writing without necessarily have a huge knock-on cost.  A character can exist within the world and have a big effect on it without ever being animated and voiced.  The Empress of Orlais is but one example.  She has been written about in the codex, we've seen some of her correspondance with Cailan, and the fact that a strong, young, vibrant ruler was leading Orlais impacted the story of DA:O.  (For instance, I can't help but think that Loghain's strong feelings about the danger of accepting Orlesian military help against the Darkspawn wouldn't have been so easily roused if that empire was being led by a decrepit old person with no clear line of succession and a host of squabbling nobles about to divide the country over who would lead it next.)  If Alistair was to show up in a future game, he could make reference to his child(ren), how they've been growing up, the impact fatherhood has had on his life, etc.

Accordingly, I tend to think that if David Gaider has chosen that Alistair will never have a child other than the OGB, it is for story reasons over and above anything else.

[Fast Jimmy]

Estelindis wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...
you may be thinking of it too much from a story POV, not a game programmer point of view. I just doubt they would program, write, animate and voice a child just for the small percent of players who would have the ability for a child to exist in the story (either by Allistair or by the Warden, or a combination of the two). 

Not so.  If Alistair had a child with his non-Anora, non-Warden queen, there's no rule that this character would even have to show up physically.  The simple fact of Alistair having a child would alter the political situation in Ferelden and beyond and this could be incorporated into the writing without necessarily have a huge knock-on cost.  A character can exist within the world and have a big effect on it without ever being animated and voiced.  The Empress of Orlais is but one example.  She has been written about in the codex, we've seen some of her correspondance with Cailan, and the fact that a strong, young, vibrant ruler was leading Orlais impacted the story of DA:O.  (For instance, I can't help but think that Loghain's strong feelings about the danger of accepting Orlesian military help against the Darkspawn wouldn't have been so easily roused if that empire was being led by a decrepit old person with no clear line of succession and a host of squabbling nobles about to divide the country over who would lead it next.)  If Alistair was to show up in a future game, he could make reference to his child(ren), how they've been growing up, the impact fatherhood has had on his life, etc.

Accordingly, I tend to think that if David Gaider has chosen that Alistair will never have a child other than the OGB, it is for story reasons over and above anything else.

But then for DA4 (or DA5, if the series goes on that long) we then have custom content, where the ruler of Ferelden is now this child, where otehrwise it would be someone else. It could be barely mentioned in DA3, but then that would be, in the words of How I Met Your Mother, a problem for Future Bioware. 

I think they saw how much choice they offered with DA:O and then realized how much work it would take to live up to all of those choices... and so have instead said "Okay, well, we won't ever offer choices like that ever again." Hence the increased lack of impactful choice in DA2, ME2 and ME3... all it does is change a number, or add a small cutscene or change a Codex entry. You don't feel like you are changing the world anymore, like we felt with ME1 and DA:O. And I lay that directly at the feet of the import system.

[goofyomnivore]

Codex entries?


Yuck. If that's what the import flags lead to, then I think many fans would suddenly not care if Bioware scrapped them altogether.

I didn't mean the choice its self I meant the personal part of the choices like their personal relationship with a past PC would work better in the codex than a fanservice cutscene just for Anora to say she wuvs the Warden, Alistair or her dead daddy.

You could still create a scene with Anora as Queen doing something important to acknowledge that choice, hell she can acknowledge her relationship if you ask her who she is hitched to, but the personal details (children/happiness for example) aren't worth the dialogue time stick those in a codex as a vague hint or something to let the player decide the validity of them. I don't see the point of investing resources in branching out a story even more if you're not going to do anything with it.

Modifié par strive, 15 octobre 2012 - 10:39 .

[Estelindis]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

But then for DA4 (or DA5, if the series goes on that long) we then have custom content, where the ruler of Ferelden is now this child, where otehrwise it would be someone else. It could be barely mentioned in DA3, but then that would be, in the words of How I Met Your Mother, a problem for Future Bioware. 

I think they saw how much choice they offered with DA:O and then realized how much work it would take to live up to all of those choices... and so have instead said "Okay, well, we won't ever offer choices like that ever again." Hence the increased lack of impactful choice in DA2, ME2 and ME3... all it does is change a number, or add a small cutscene or change a Codex entry. You don't feel like you are changing the world anymore, like we felt with ME1 and DA:O. And I lay that directly at the feet of the import system. 

Only Bioware knows if we will ever go back to Ferelden at all.  That still doesn't change the fact that, even if we did, the custom ruler might only appear outside mentions and the codex if they wanted that.  Neither you nor I know what their views on this matter are.  

I certainly agree that Bioware needs to save the majority of their "importing" budget for the big choices.  However, it remains the case that many past decisions could be carried forward without needing a huge budget in this way, if they were only mentioned or touched story in some way from afar.  I don't think you've really said anything that refutes this argument.

Maybe, for you, it feels like changes that just impact codex entries, lead to you getting mail, or sometimes come up in conversation, have no impact.  But personally I like these kinds of callbacks and think that they matter.  They may not affect big things like whether a core character is dead or alive, but they could affect how you or a character feels at a certain time, views a particular situation, etc.  I like these little touches.

EDIT: By the way, I'm not saying that, storywise, Alistair should necessarily have a child apart from the OGB.  I'm saying that it makes me sad that he wouldn't have a child except in the case of the Dark Ritual.  But evoking sadness in the player can be good.

Modifié par Estelindis, 15 octobre 2012 - 10:56 .

[Patchwork]

Regardless of import flags I'm pretty sure that the future ruler of Ferelden is going to be Fergus' child.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

Ser Bard wrote...

Regardless of import flags I'm pretty sure that the future ruler of Ferelden is going to be Fergus' child.

Fergus child is dead.........

Modifié par DarkKnightHolmes, 15 octobre 2012 - 10:49 .

[Fiacre]

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

Ser Bard wrote...

Regardless of import flags I'm pretty sure that the future ruler of Ferelden is going to be Fergus' child.

Fergus child is dead.........

But Fergus himself is alive and can make new ones. Shea approves. Go, big brother!

[sylvanaerie]

Fiacre wrote...

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

Ser Bard wrote...

Regardless of import flags I'm pretty sure that the future ruler of Ferelden is going to be Fergus' child.

Fergus child is dead.........

But Fergus himself is alive and can make new ones. Shea approves. Go, big brother!

I always assumed he would.  "Cousland's know their duty" and even if love isn't involved.  Though, Maker knows, if anyone deserves a little happiness after all that's happened it's the elder Cousland brother, and I hope he can find love with a good woman.

[HereticDante]

Melca36 wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Melca36 wrote...

Mr Gaider has already stated that Alistair will never have any children except the OGB.

He never has children with Anora if you marry them off and he never has children if he rules alone.

I seem to recall him saying if Anora rules alone or with MCousland...there is never any children either.
So down the line there will be a new royal line ruling Ferelden.   

Did he state specifically that Alistair will never have children, or did he say that it's very difficult for a Grey Warden to produce a child?

He said Alistair would never concieve any children with anyone (the OGB is the only exception if you did the DR)

Let me see if I can find the link

citation requested please?