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Less choice is better, Bioware.


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#1
Meltemph

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This is not about player agency, I believe BW games typically have much better stories, when player agency is at its highest point.  That all said, my main reasons for my thoughts is in defense of the setting of Dragon Age, and not as much game related as it appears. Anywho I'll give an idea of what I dont want to see, choice wise and then down the page choice types I want to see...

When I say I want less choice, I mean, I want less choices that are massive setting changers that essetnially make a single coherent setting impossible, where there are so many major choices that it makes it near impossible for BW to properly place importance on these choices in either DLC or the next game.

Here are some examples, that imo, break the setting simply for the sake of choice...

1. The leader of Ozammar - Because of this choice, it makes future introductions with the king of Oz via storyline much harder to develope, in terms of fully fleshed out, because it forces you to focus on multiple rulers, unless you kill off both of them, which kinda defeats the purpose of the choice, imo.

2. The god baby(From someone who nearly never romances or wants to romance Morrigan) - IMO, something like this either need to be a non-choice(no matter what happens this happens) or it needs to not happen.  The reason I say this is, something like this, the soul of a old god, you would think would have a pretty big effect on the setting as a whole, and it seems like something that should be cannon inside the Dragon Age setting.  Obviously, I am projecting my own personal interpritation of this choice, but a choice like this needs to have a fairly significant impact on the setting at least in terms of the fleshing out of the lore.  By this not effecting the setting enough where the people who didnt choose this are missing out, I think it contrivences the choice itself.

3. Destroying the Anvil or not destroying it - This to me was a major choice for the Dwarves, because in the codex's it made it clear that this creation was actually letting them open up old Thaigs and pushing much farther in the deep roads.  IMO, somethingl ike this should have been forced to be canon, simply because it had the greatest chance of making the dwarves kingdoms much more insteresting.  Maybe it is because I'm sick of seeing the Dwarven kingdoms getting shafted in the fantasy settings, but still.

4. NPC party members shouldnt be able to be killed or should be forced to stick around the party and be completely formed by the player.  This is largely because, imo, it hollows out the setting to the point where it makes it very hard to have a Drizzit, Entreri, Elminster, and ect.   Some of them sure, you can have them completely formed by the PC, the ones that wont be staples of the setting. For instane, I am infavor in a big way of you having Leliana(coming from someone who is not a huge fan of hers) be a part of the setting regardless of your choices, but, imo we shouldnt have had the ability to kill her then, in the 1st place or to be able to change her personallity in a major way(she needs to be her own story, so to speak, imo). 

I dont like this idea, personally, that we have to be able to directly effect the personality and life of the people who join our parties.  We need a Jarlaxle/Elminster in our party that has his own past/story AND independence from our influence.  It makes the setting as a whole feel more real and alive, imo.  I dont want the setting to be so maliable to the PC, because that means the setting is maliable to EVERY PC, which imo, devalues the setting as a whole and makes it more "gamey" then it needs to be, imo. 

I want Dragon Age to be the equivalent of the Forgotten Realms, where I can play 5 years down the road, a Dragon Age game and see Sten, and still remember the 1st time I met him without having to wonder which "story arc" BW decided to go with.


Now with the type of choices I like...

The choices I like are ones that change how I get to the destination.  For instance, if I want to join the Mages liberation I want that choice to lead me to the end of the gam but with a completely different perspective, where as with if I joined the Templars I would get to the same end point, but again, from a completely different perspective(much like with BG2).

I want the side quests to determin my player agency/personality/choices, mainly, because these you can much easier develop in future itterations without hamstringing the main setting/story arcs.  This would allow me to play a more morally ruthless/evil/good/lawful/chaotic player type. 

I think the choice I make in the main story should be restricted to my personal player agency and what my character would do, but if in teh main story, I am deciding all these major setting changing choices, at the end of the game after everyone makes their choices, we are all left with a completely or at least VERY different setting.  Where the only way to resolve the said differences is to minimize the choices impact on the settings.

If we had smaller choices in scope, but easier to show from game to game(for instance if you sided with Orlais or Antiva from a past game you would get either Zevran or Leliana to join you in the next game).  Or for instance if you decided to save a person in the previous game, you would have access to certain equipment in the next game. 

I want choices in the game that I can see in future games, that do not hinder the setting of Dragon age as a whole.  I want choices that I know can be developed in the next game w/o hamstringing the setting.  I want the setting itself though to be something that I can look to and actaully believe it is a world, w/o being reminded every time I look at a map of Thedas that it is a game, because when I look at the map I have to remember all my choices to know what Thedas I'm looking at.

I dont want to choose whether the collector base survives or not, becasue if I can choose such a huge choice, the choice itself will need to be reduced in terms of impact, so the setting as a whole doesnt suffer.  Instead give me smaller choices, where the impacts of those choices can be felt on a personal level, but not so big that it contrivences the choice.

Obviously, I am not stating that the setting/game MUST be treated like this or that my way is the only way, but this is just my view on it.  But again, I'm viewing Dragon Age as more then just a game, but also a setting that I want to see survive.

TL;DR - I want choices, but I dont want choices that create so many branches that it trivilaized the choices themselves because of the contrivences that must follow because of said choices.

Modifié par Meltemph, 28 septembre 2012 - 07:25 .


#2
Meltemph

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Anyone else agree or disagree?

#3
KENNY4753

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less choice in an RPG is not better in any way.

Spend the time to make all previous choices matter.

#4
Meltemph

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KENNY4753 wrote...

less choice in an RPG is not better in any way.

Spend the time to make all previous choices matter.



That is an impossibility without reducing the length of a game.  Something has to take a hit if you want to have 30 different variations of the same setting.  There is no magical developing ability that lets you make endless choices. 

Modifié par Meltemph, 29 septembre 2012 - 04:52 .


#5
AresKeith

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you know this is an RPG right?

#6
caradoc2000

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Less choice is better

And no choice at all would be the pinnacle of goodhood?

#7
Meltemph

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caradoc2000 wrote...


Less choice is better

And no choice at all would be the pinnacle of goodhood?


Did you read my entire post?

#8
Cultist

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Yeah! Less choices and big setting changes - just look how well that worked with Dragon Age 2!
Tremendous success!

Modifié par Cultist, 29 septembre 2012 - 04:53 .


#9
Meltemph

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Cultist wrote...

Yeah! Less choices and big setting changes - just look how well that worked with Dragon Age 2!
Tremendous success!



That actually is my point.  DA1 had so many branching choices that none of it showed up in any significant way.  Lots of little choices is much better then choosing to blow up or keep the collector base.  Otherwise, you dont get any real impact from your choices.

#10
Cultist

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Meltemph wrote...

Cultist wrote...

Yeah! Less choices and big setting changes - just look how well that worked with Dragon Age 2!
Tremendous success!



That actually is my point.  DA1 had so many branching choices that none of it showed up in any significant way.  Lots of little choices is much better then choosing to blow up or keep the collector base.  Otherwise, you dont get any real impact from your choices.

You know, it is forbidden to post a picture response, so I'll tell you this: Facepalm.jpg.
I hope you'll understand.

#11
Meltemph

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Cultist wrote...

Meltemph wrote...

Cultist wrote...

Yeah! Less choices and big setting changes - just look how well that worked with Dragon Age 2!
Tremendous success!



That actually is my point.  DA1 had so many branching choices that none of it showed up in any significant way.  Lots of little choices is much better then choosing to blow up or keep the collector base.  Otherwise, you dont get any real impact from your choices.

You know, it is forbidden to post a picture response, so I'll tell you this: Facepalm.jpg.
I hope you'll understand.


ITT: I have no rebuttal outside of nu-uh.

Modifié par Meltemph, 29 septembre 2012 - 05:00 .


#12
Atakuma

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They need to focus their efforts on offering choices that matter within the game itself, instead of the potentially world altering ones that will ultimately be reduced to nothing for the convenience of the writers.

#13
Dhiro

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Hmm... I do get what you mean. Less choices means they can use their settings and characters to craft a story without having to worry about players messing with it.

And yet, developing your character in an RPG often means interacting with people and events and influencing them. If most things are set in stone your choices will change very, very little... at this point I'd say it would be better to have a set protagonist, much like Final Fantasy, but I few that's not the game BioWare wants to make, nor the kind of game BioWare's current fanbase is seeking.

That said, if they really want to use a character for something important in the future - Leliana, Anders, etc - they should make sure we can't kill them. They did that with Varric (and Aveline, I believe?) and Tallis, but the last one was handled poorly.

#14
Meltemph

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Atakuma wrote...

They need to focus their efforts on offering choices that matter within the game itself, instead of the potentially world altering ones that will ultimately be reduced to nothing for the convenience of the writers.


Exactly.  Thank you.

#15
Wulfram

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I'd rather scrap the whole importing thing than scrap major choices. Importing isn't really needed unless you're keeping the same PC.

If they are going to stop allowing you to make major choices, they should stop putting the player in major events. If the story is more personal, then it makes sense for the choices to be personal too.

#16
KENNY4753

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Meltemph wrote...

KENNY4753 wrote...

less choice in an RPG is not better in any way.

Spend the time to make all previous choices matter.



That is an impossibility without reducing the length of a game.  Something has to take a hit if you want to have 30 different variations of the same setting.  There is no magical developing ability that lets you make endless choices. 


not really. If they take long enough time to create it then it won't have to be a short game.

#17
Meltemph

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Dhiro wrote...

Hmm... I do get what you mean. Less choices means they can use their settings and characters to craft a story without having to worry about players messing with it.

And yet, developing your character in an RPG often means interacting with people and events and influencing them. If most things are set in stone your choices will change very, very little... at this point I'd say it would be better to have a set protagonist, much like Final Fantasy, but I few that's not the game BioWare wants to make, nor the kind of game BioWare's current fanbase is seeking.

That said, if they really want to use a character for something important in the future - Leliana, Anders, etc - they should make sure we can't kill them. They did that with Varric (and Aveline, I believe?) and Tallis, but the last one was handled poorly.



I dont think you get what I mean.  What I am talking about is, haivng choices that have almost no chance of having a lasting impact on the series you are playing.  Instead give us choices that effect our player agency.  There is no reason that we have to play "gods of the setting".  We can have many choices and still not be able to end up creating 50 different versions of the Dragon Age universe.  Otherwise all the choices get swept away.

#18
Meltemph

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KENNY4753 wrote...

Meltemph wrote...

KENNY4753 wrote...

less choice in an RPG is not better in any way.

Spend the time to make all previous choices matter.



That is an impossibility without reducing the length of a game.  Something has to take a hit if you want to have 30 different variations of the same setting.  There is no magical developing ability that lets you make endless choices. 


not really. If they take long enough time to create it then it won't have to be a short game.



Well ya, but the reality of the situation is the people forking out the money to make a game isnt going to want to sit on a game forever, without seeing any return.

#19
Atakuma

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KENNY4753 wrote...

Meltemph wrote...

KENNY4753 wrote...

less choice in an RPG is not better in any way.

Spend the time to make all previous choices matter.



That is an impossibility without reducing the length of a game.  Something has to take a hit if you want to have 30 different variations of the same setting.  There is no magical developing ability that lets you make endless choices. 


not really. If they take long enough time to create it then it won't have to be a short game.

Length of development does not correlate to a longer game, just a more expensive one.

#20
Pedrak

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The simplest solution is: keep many choices for each game, then move forward in time and away geographically, use a different protagonist, so you have to reference the player's previous choices only obliquely.  I'd rather have more impact on dwarvish society and never visit that city again than being railroaded into a canon solution.

Which is pretty much what Bio is doing with DA.

Their only major misstep is, for me, canonically resurrecting characters the player can kill. If you need character XYZ in the following game, don't allow me to kill her. That's a pointless choice if ever there was one.

I do kind of agree with the OP that the Dark Ritual seemed to be to big a choice to be swept under the rug in the sequels. But who knows...

Modifié par Pedrak, 29 septembre 2012 - 05:11 .


#21
KENNY4753

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Meltemph wrote...

KENNY4753 wrote...

Meltemph wrote...

KENNY4753 wrote...

less choice in an RPG is not better in any way.

Spend the time to make all previous choices matter.



That is an impossibility without reducing the length of a game.  Something has to take a hit if you want to have 30 different variations of the same setting.  There is no magical developing ability that lets you make endless choices. 


not really. If they take long enough time to create it then it won't have to be a short game.



Well ya, but the reality of the situation is the people forking out the money to make a game isnt going to want to sit on a game forever, without seeing any return.

I'm not saying take 10 years but I want the game to make my choices matter, I don't care if they take longer to create it. One of ME3's flaws

#22
KENNY4753

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Atakuma wrote...

KENNY4753 wrote...

Meltemph wrote...

KENNY4753 wrote...

less choice in an RPG is not better in any way.

Spend the time to make all previous choices matter.



That is an impossibility without reducing the length of a game.  Something has to take a hit if you want to have 30 different variations of the same setting.  There is no magical developing ability that lets you make endless choices. 


not really. If they take long enough time to create it then it won't have to be a short game.

Length of development does not correlate to a longer game, just a more expensive one.

I know that but if they made a game where my choices throughout the series mattered I would be willing to pay more.

And if they take long enough they could make the game longer as well as making choices matter.

#23
Dhiro

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Meltemph wrote...

Dhiro wrote...

Hmm... I do get what you mean. Less choices means they can use their settings and characters to craft a story without having to worry about players messing with it.

And yet, developing your character in an RPG often means interacting with people and events and influencing them. If most things are set in stone your choices will change very, very little... at this point I'd say it would be better to have a set protagonist, much like Final Fantasy, but I few that's not the game BioWare wants to make, nor the kind of game BioWare's current fanbase is seeking.

That said, if they really want to use a character for something important in the future - Leliana, Anders, etc - they should make sure we can't kill them. They did that with Varric (and Aveline, I believe?) and Tallis, but the last one was handled poorly.



I dont think you get what I mean.  What I am talking about is, haivng choices that have almost no chance of having a lasting impact on the series you are playing.  Instead give us choices that effect our player agency.  There is no reason that we have to play "gods of the setting".  We can have many choices and still not be able to end up creating 50 different versions of the Dragon Age universe.  Otherwise all the choices get swept away.


Damn, I just herped that derp hard. Sorry OP!

To be honest, many little choices that will show their consequences during the game sound more attractive to me than many big choices that will be handled poorly because of the variables. I can't say I don't support your suggestion, OP, and I believe that that would make developing the setting much easier for the writers... it's an idea to be considered, at the very least.

#24
Meltemph

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Pedrak wrote...

The simplest solution is: keep many choices for each game, then move forward in time and away geographically, use a different protagonist, so you have to reference the player's previous choices only obliquely.



But doesnt this kind of defeat the purpose of the choices?  If you never get to feel the impact of your choices, what is the point?  I want my choices to be something I care about in game, but also when dealing with a game series/setting like this, I also want to know the choices I made have a direct impact on my player agency. 

If you can choose between 2+ choices that are so majorly different in scope, in regards to how it effects the setting, what are my chances of actually seeing a real pay-off of that choice?  I dont want choices for the sake of choices, I want choices becasue I will be impacted by them.  To me the only way to really do this is to give me more personal choices and less major setting choices.

#25
Josielyn

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I want at least one scene about a formal dinner, involving poison. If you choose the wrong wine... guess what happens?You have a near death experience, and visit the Fade for a while.