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DA3, please be unpredictable and bold when it comes to plot twists and characters.

Débuté par Guest_simfamUP_* , sept. 29 2012 12:07

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29 réponses à ce sujet

#1
Guest_simfamUP_*
Posté 29 septembre 2012 - 12:07

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One of the most underrated games out there now is the GOT game (I refuse to call it an RPG.) Due to horrible voice acting from 3/4 of the cast and a significant lack of polish, it got bad reviews and hey! Nothing good came out of a tv inspired video game, right? Anyway, one of its very strong points is it's unpredictability (keeping in tone with the books.) I want DA3 to be just that.

Who remembers those awesome moments, yet completley heartbreaking and potentially harmful to one's psychological stability when the Rains of Castamere was sung at that bloody wedding? Or when the damn Bowen Marsh had to stick to tradition? The pain felt when young Joff thought it was cool to cut of the North...literally and metaphorically.

These things should be in the game. Stuff that we don't expect, stuff that takes us by surprise but because it was so well done and foreshadowed so subtley that we can't find fault with it! I don't want an NPC to have 'plot armour' because she's some blood relative or good friend. Nor do I want for characters to have the poetic licence those dull Shakespearean plays seem to keep.

Tension, drama and a lot of emotional impact is lost when you can tell from the start who will live and who will die. So let DA3 change that, let it be bold in some respects, so we can never be sure of what's to come.

Modifié par simfamSP, 29 septembre 2012 - 10:21 .

#2
Guest_franciscoamell_*
Posté 29 septembre 2012 - 12:12

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They can kill more characters, maybe.

#3
Guest_simfamUP_*
Posté 29 septembre 2012 - 10:21

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Not many ASOIAF fans then? xD

#4
Jerrybnsn
Posté 29 septembre 2012 - 10:25

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Or at least be bold and have a plot in this next game. Let's worry about twisting it once we have that down.

Modifié par Jerrybnsn, 29 septembre 2012 - 10:27 .

#5
Reznore57
Posté 29 septembre 2012 - 10:52

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I'm a fan of ASOIAF , but ...there's a fine line between keeping your audience in suspence because you know nobody has plot armor.
And getting to the point where your audience knows that any character gonna be raped , tortured ,turn out to be psycho or getting some part of his/her body cut off.

It's the same problem i have with a comic like The Walking Dead , you just know that everybody 's gonna suffer a lot no matter what , so you just keep on reading to know who's gonna die next.

I mean i want to be surprised , if you use too much of nobody has plot armor , and every body has to die there's no surprise anymore neither.

So a few scene here and there , ok , I'd like to feel really threatened as a pc , but please no body parts chopped off just for the sake of "get back to reality you're not playing the invisible man."

#6
KiwiQuiche
Posté 29 septembre 2012 - 11:21

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The end of ME3 was totally unpredictable...though I really hope DA3 won't go in that direction :|

#7
Winterz
Posté 29 septembre 2012 - 11:36

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If you want to be unpredictable, don't do a plot twist.

#8
Nashimura
Posté 29 septembre 2012 - 11:49

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HolySmite wrote...

If you want to be unpredictable, don't do a plot twist.


Its been years since Bioware did a good plot twist - Jade Empire was the last i think, i would love another one. A betrayal is always fun. 

#9
Sejborg
Posté 29 septembre 2012 - 11:50

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I agree. But it needs to be handled well.

The death of King Cailan and Duncan was done well. The Bethany/Carver incident was not, since it only served gameplay balancing. It had no meaning story wise, since you didn't know them.

Killing of someone that you think will have a big impact on the story can be quite shocking, and leave an impact on the rest of the story. I like something like that. And that's why I (in another thread) suggested killing off Casandra early in DA3.

#10
Fast Jimmy
Posté 29 septembre 2012 - 12:20

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Not giving plot armor would be interesting, but you'd run the risk of having a Leandra/Aerie issue, where players feel slighted because nothing could be done to prevent companies or important NPCs from dying.

I doubt they will ever do this in a Bioware game, simply because of the import flags. Having people who can die, but don't in everyone's playthrough just results in more headaches and work in the next game, something the ME and DA teams are getting burned on.

A forced twist feels like a railroad. A twist that can be avoided or mitigated feels like meta gaming. And radically different outcomes, regardless, are impossible to account for in futur games. A more linear game, plot and characters, ironically enough, is the result of their games which import choices.

#11
Tokion
Posté 29 septembre 2012 - 12:36

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They can pull a George RR Martin, but seeing Bioware always emphasizes on choice....it is only logical if the player can go back and save that poor bastard.

Just imagine if you can save both Bethany and Carver if you found a secret tunnel prior to the Ogre. Mother would be so happy.

Modifié par Tokion, 29 septembre 2012 - 12:39 .

#12
nightscrawl
Posté 29 septembre 2012 - 12:41

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Reznore57 wrote...

And getting to the point where your audience knows that any character gonna be raped , tortured ,turn out to be psycho or getting some part of his/her body cut off.

Reading those novels is full of anxiety for me, and it tends to be tiring after a while. I really don't trust GRRM at all, so there are some characters that I worry about constantly. Actually, I think it comes off better if whatever horrible thing is a surprise, rather than you waiting for danger around every corner.


Tokion wrote...

They can pull a George RR Martin, but seeing Bioware always emphasizes on choice....it is only logical if the player can go back and save that poor bastard.

I tend to feel that your choices should have meaningful consequences. For example, I don't think they should have allowed the player the perfect solution with Connor in DAO. It's a hard choice, and given the nature of the choice, it should have been the most difficult choice in the game. Different people will have different outlooks on it. I like idea of Isolde sacrificing herself for her son. She's a mother, it's a no-brainer for her. Other players might not want to resort to blood magic, even though Isolde volunteers, so they opt to kill Connor.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 29 septembre 2012 - 12:58 .

#13
Pedrak
Posté 29 septembre 2012 - 12:45

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In DAO, very few companions actually had a plot armor. You're the one who gets to kill most of them, though...

#14
Reznore57
Posté 29 septembre 2012 - 12:56

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Well trying to go all George Matin , they would need to kill the pc.
And not at the end....
I don't think that's in the realm of possibility .

What maybe could work is going from hero to zero , you're betrayed ,you made the wrong decision whatever , you end up in a very bad place .
You companions desert you , people hates you , no more coins , you're wounded , etc
And then the player has ways to regain his hero status , by proving himself worthy again , or manipulating , taking revenge on some of your companions ( maybe not killing them , but beaten them up or framed them into some crime and they end up in prison ..)

Just giving room for player to react to this in a different manner, you can be a real bi*** that swear to take revenge on everybody , decide that your mission is the most important , etc.

#15
Guest_Guest12345_*
Posté 29 septembre 2012 - 01:03

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I don't want just one twist, I want a dozen. Give me a story that is constantly twisting around, so that I can barely keep up. I want to be on the edge of my seat, desperate to know more.

#16
Guest_simfamUP_*
Posté 29 septembre 2012 - 02:28

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Fast Jimmy wrote...

Not giving plot armor would be interesting, but you'd run the risk of having a Leandra/Aerie issue, where players feel slighted because nothing could be done to prevent companies or important NPCs from dying.

I doubt they will ever do this in a Bioware game, simply because of the import flags. Having people who can die, but don't in everyone's playthrough just results in more headaches and work in the next game, something the ME and DA teams are getting burned on.

A forced twist feels like a railroad. A twist that can be avoided or mitigated feels like meta gaming. And radically different outcomes, regardless, are impossible to account for in futur games. A more linear game, plot and characters, ironically enough, is the result of their games which import choices.


Fair enough, but there will always be plot points that are out of our control (e,g Arl Eamon's poisoning) so there is no danger in using plot twists in some occasions.

Also, other fair points are made. Over using this too much can make 'unpredictable' very predictable; it works both ways really. So despite my OP, I think a moderate use of it would be for the best.

#17
Killer3000ad
Posté 29 septembre 2012 - 02:39

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Just don't introduce some deus ex machina in the last 15 minutes who's existence was not even hinted at throughout the series, who then pulls the rug out from under the player and offers a red, blue or green pill option.

#18
Dhiro
Posté 29 septembre 2012 - 02:45

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I'm totally okay with bold plot twists that make sense... but less okay with plot twists that are shocking for the sake of being shocking. If we can't make sense of it (by noticing it was foreshadowed, or making connections with things we knew about in the past)... then it can be a bit disappointing.

#19
Guest_franciscoamell_*
Posté 29 septembre 2012 - 02:47

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Well, the end of Act 2 of DA2 was very unexpected. Was that bold enough?

#20
Masha Potato
Posté 29 septembre 2012 - 02:48

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PC, i am your father

#21
Koffeegirl
Posté 29 septembre 2012 - 06:19

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scyphozoa wrote...

I don't want just one twist, I want a dozen. Give me a story that is constantly twisting around, so that I can barely keep up. I want to be on the edge of my seat, desperate to know more.



Yes,I agree with this....especially with a title like Inquisition.

#22
bleetman
Posté 29 septembre 2012 - 06:24

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Nashimura wrote...

Its been years since Bioware did a good plot twist - Jade Empire was the last i think

The Old Republic imperial agent would like a word with you.

#23
Guest_simfamUP_*
Posté 29 septembre 2012 - 06:26

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Killer3000ad wrote...

Just don't introduce some deus ex machina in the last 15 minutes who's existence was not even hinted at throughout the series, who then pulls the rug out from under the player and offers a red, blue or green pill option.


As I've mentioned (though I don't blame you if you've just skimmed through my OP) plot points like twists should be foreshadowed, or at least, expected.

The Red Wedding was foreshadowed subtley, and it was something we could have expected, for example.

#24
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
Posté 29 septembre 2012 - 06:27

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bleetman wrote...

Nashimura wrote...

Its been years since Bioware did a good plot twist - Jade Empire was the last i think

The Old Republic imperial agent would like a word with you.


Wasn't Jade After KotOR?

Never mind, you must be talking about the MMO.

Modifié par EntropicAngel, 29 septembre 2012 - 06:28 .

#25
Darth Death
Posté 29 septembre 2012 - 06:36

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KiwiQuiche wrote...

The end of ME3 was totally unpredictable...though I really hope DA3 won't go in that direction :|

You and me both. I hope our pc doesn't die from orlais cheese poisoning or something.  
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