138 réponses à ce sujet

[ThatoneWarden99]

Avejajed wrote...

deuce985 wrote...

I'd like to burn that image from my mind right before bed. Thanks.

Too late, cannot unsee.

It has been burned into my mind.

[Cyne]

I doubt people actually hate bioware despite what you read on forums. forums tend to develop their own culture, sometimes quite independently of the subject matter.

[David Gaider]

PurebredCorn wrote...

Gaider just apologized to brushyourteeth for his flippant remark. Just a heads up.

And I'll point out that my post on that thread was on page two, after numerous other posts talking about the re-use of the trope, and not directly to the OP. I can see she saw it that way and took it personally, so hey-- not my intention to come across as insensitive.

I suppose I do, sometimes-- some insensitivity is required for devs to post here, you know. Either that or a lack of a soul. Take your pick.

[LolaLei]

PurebredCorn wrote...

Gaider just apologized to brushyourteeth for his flippant remark. Just a heads up.

Lol, it's not hard to see why he comes across as a bit of a ball breaker in the forum though, the behaviour of some users in here is mind boogling. 

*Edit* Ha! Speak of the devil and up he pops!

Modifié par LolaLei, 29 septembre 2012 - 06:02 .

[Sister Goldring]

Avejajed

Why don't you take a little break from here and come on over to the Project Eternity site. It's got a rocking positive attitude.

http://forums.obsidi...ion-discussion/

....and yes I am trying to lure all of biowares fans away but damn it they NEED the money!

Modifié par Sister Goldring, 29 septembre 2012 - 07:39 .

[addiction21]

marshalleck wrote...

addiction21 wrote...

Play the arm chair writer, developer, CEO etc etc etc... When one of those professionals that have lived the life tell you otherwise that you ignorant clamouring is wrong.

Suck it up. Deal with it.

Oh this again. You don't need to be a master chef to recognize the soup tastes bad.

The problem is so many mistake "I do not like this" with "It is bad"

You can not like something but still respect its qualities.

Avejajed wrote...

Dealing with something isn't always equal to ignoring it. This is my way of dealing with it. Sometimes standing up for what you feel is right is more important than "sucking it up". 

As for Gaider, I think he's brilliant. I've said that lots of times- and stuck up for him in a lot of threads. But sometimes even all-important writers, CEO's, and developers need a healthy dose of humility.  Especially from the people who admire them.  Not to say that's what this thread is intended for. But after all, aren't we the ones who would wait in line for seven hours to see them speak on a panel, or get our game autographed?

And you are and always just be a fan. You are a fan for a reason and It does not matter now many lines, panels you wait for or what you get autographed. You are a fan.
You became a fan for a reason and trying to push your own personal prefrences on the creators is wrong. Let them do what they do. That thing that made you a fan in the first place.
Do not demand they change or cater to your needs.

If they are no longer doing what you like then there is someone else out in the world doing that. Let the creators of the world do their thing.

[Palipride47]

yay, everyone feels better, right? *hugs all around*

I like when people are nice on forums.

[Xilizhra]

I'll admit that I'm not fond of sadism, regardless of the source. Hence, I'll agree with the OP on the issues of excessive developer snarkiness. Has it faded now, due to awareness being raised? Perhaps. We will find out.

[Sanunes]

Palipride47 wrote...

yay, everyone feels better, right? *hugs all around*

I like when people are nice on forums.

Its also a rare occasion anymore it seems too, which is a sad direction to be travelling.

[David Gaider]

addiction21 wrote...
If they are no longer doing what you like then there is someone else out in the world doing that. Let the creators of the world do their thing.

While I get what you're saying, I'll politely disagree. To an extent, yes-- if someone doesn't like the kind of games we're making now or the stories we're writing, even if they used to, there comes a point where they should move on to something that they do like.

We have not and do not, however, subscribe to the "suck it up and like it" attitude. If we did, we wouldn't engage fans at all. We wouldn't do things like make the EC for ME3-- which, yes, came after defending our creation. We will do that, after all, as these games are our creation. My point is that they also belong to the fans. We invited them to have a personal investment in what we make. It would be just as presumptuous for us to ignore that when it's convenient for us as it would be for fans to ignore our ownership when it's convenient for them. Ideally we'll walk a line between making what we desire and listening as much as we can-- to ALL opinions politely offered here.

Modifié par David Gaider, 29 septembre 2012 - 06:46 .

[PhillyB]

Ugh.

[Maria Caliban]

^ David is a soft touch.

Icinix wrote...

The dynamic of these forums has definitely changed since the old forums and the early days.

I'd say it's a cycle. I haven't seen anything here that didn't pop up on the old BioWare boards.

[Grizzly46]

David Gaider wrote...

addiction21 wrote...
If they are no longer doing what you like then there is someone else out in the world doing that. Let the creators of the world do their thing.

While I get what you're saying, I'll politely disagree. To an extent, yes-- if someone doesn't like the kind of games we're making now or the stories we're writing, even if they used to, there comes a point where they should move on to something that they do like.

We have not and do not, however, subscribe to the "suck it up and like it" attitude. If we did, we wouldn't engage fans at all. We wouldn't do things like make the EC for ME3-- which, yes, came after defending our creation. We will do that, after all, as these games are our creation. My point is that they also belong to the fans. We invited them to have a personal investment in what we make, after all. It would be just as presumptuous for us to ignore that when it's convenient for us as it would be for fans to ignore our ownership when it's convenient for them. Ideally we'll walk a line between making what we desire and listening as much as we can-- to ALL opinions politely offered here.

And that actually happened - Bioware took a lot of abuse for the parachuting enemies in DA2 (and for very good reasons) but in the DLC Legacy, they were no longer there. This kind of 'customer support' is very appreciated, but it can also be abused.

For example: In ME1 a lot of people (not me) complained about the Mako missions (not the mako itself), but in ME2, everything Mako was gone, and this is not the only instance of over-reaction.

In other words, Bioware has a tendency to react to the fans' opinions, and asking 'how', but very seldom 'why'.

Yes, a game might be created by you, but they are our investment in money, time and very often emotionally (I had to take five on my couch after the first time I played through ME3EC - yes, seriously). I think that people who are complaining are often doing so for the wrong reasons ('daah, I can't romance Legion, fix it Bioware!'), and that Bioware needs to step back a little and look at what people are actually saying. Are there game-breaking bugs or just features that doesn't fit into someone's head-canon universe?

[WhiteKnyght]

David Gaider wrote...

addiction21 wrote...
If they are no longer doing what you like then there is someone else out in the world doing that. Let the creators of the world do their thing.

While I get what you're saying, I'll politely disagree. To an extent, yes-- if someone doesn't like the kind of games we're making now or the stories we're writing, even if they used to, there comes a point where they should move on to something that they do like.

We have not and do not, however, subscribe to the "suck it up and like it" attitude. If we did, we wouldn't engage fans at all. We wouldn't do things like make the EC for ME3-- which, yes, came after defending our creation. We will do that, after all, as these games are our creation. My point is that they also belong to the fans. We invited them to have a personal investment in what we make, after all. It would be just as presumptuous for us to ignore that when it's convenient for us as it would be for fans to ignore our ownership when it's convenient for them. Ideally we'll walk a line between making what we desire and listening as much as we can-- to ALL opinions politely offered here.

Well spoken, Gaider.

The fact that Bioware gave the Extended Cut to players proves that you guys are not evil(Except Chris, he wears his evil proudly lol) like the trolls and haters like to accuse you of being. Putting time, resources, and manpower into something free is a geniune show of good faith. People should appreciate the gesture, rather than twist every detail and word into something negative..

[David Gaider]

Grizzly46 wrote...
For example: In ME1 a lot of people (not me) complained about the Mako missions (not the mako itself), but in ME2, everything Mako was gone, and this is not the only instance of over-reaction.

Be careful in assuming that any change which is something that's been complained about on the forums has been changed only because it's been complained about on the forums. That's seldom the case. If there were developers who hated the Mako missions as much as some fans, they'd be able to discern the reasons for their dislike very well.

It's actually pretty seldom that a change will be made based on an opinion that not a single member of the development team personally holds. Devs don't always agree with each other, but if we made decisions based only on what we thoght other people wanted, I agree that would be a pretty crappy way to go about things.

[addiction21]

David Gaider wrote...

addiction21 wrote...
If they are no longer doing what you like then there is someone else out in the world doing that. Let the creators of the world do their thing.

While I get what you're saying, I'll politely disagree. To an extent, yes-- if someone doesn't like the kind of games we're making now or the stories we're writing, even if they used to, there comes a point where they should move on to something that they do like.

We have not and do not, however, subscribe to the "suck it up and like it" attitude. If we did, we wouldn't engage fans at all. We wouldn't do things like make the EC for ME3-- which, yes, came after defending our creation. We will do that, after all, as these games are our creation. My point is that they also belong to the fans. We invited them to have a personal investment in what we make, after all. It would be just as presumptuous for us to ignore that when it's convenient for us as it would be for fans to ignore our ownership when it's convenient for them. Ideally we'll walk a line between making what we desire and listening as much as we can-- to ALL opinions politely offered here.

I never said anything about likeing it But there is a way to deal with it. In a rational and reasonable manner.

ANd I agree it belongs to the fans like a novel does. There is some intrinsic reason they have came to love it and thats different for each person. Something that clicked with them and made them a fan.

Stephen King is my favorite author. Trust me when I say I would happily burn a large amount of the stories he has written. I love what he does but I might not love all of it and I would never want hims to "bend too much" to his fans wants.

And believe me I know you guys listen. I also know listen =/= action.

[upsettingshorts]

I'm addressing one poster explicitly here, and also a broad category of them implicitly. They probably know who they are and would not apologize for being among their number. With that out of the way...

marshalleck wrote...

Oh this again. You don't need to be a master chef to recognize the soup tastes bad.

There is a world of difference between saying you didn't like the soup you ordered, and saying that the chefs who prepared it are malicious/incompetent/lazy. Which is the BSN's modus operandi, along with intellectual dishonesty, conspiracy theories, and quote mining. That's before we get into the folks who are simply overtly hostile, as I'm stepping into that particular cohort with mounting frequency.

There is also a world of difference between no longer patronizing said restaurant and barking instructions into the kitchen pretending you've got a clue. Or in your case, not caring that you don't.

By all means dump on BioWare on the industry's equivalent of Yelp!, but let's not insult everyone's collective intelligence with dishonest posturing that claims your yelling into the kitchen and berating the wait staff isn't ruining it for the people in the restaurant that just want to enjoy their soup.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 29 septembre 2012 - 07:03 .

[addiction21]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
snip

Go back to the pug in a skullcap. That man chewing is distracting.

Modifié par addiction21, 29 septembre 2012 - 07:01 .

[David Gaider]

addiction21 wrote...
I never said anything about likeing it But there is a way to deal with it. In a rational and reasonable manner.

Fans tend to get touchy when the subject of entitlement comes up-- possibly because when it's brought up in a negative connotation they interpret that to apply to everything they do. Which it may, but that really depends on the behavior of the individual. It's one thing to feel entitled to express concern or an opinion regarding something you like a lot and feel invested in. It's another thing to feel that investment means you're entitled to dictate how it should be made to your personal preference. Like many things which are generally good, it can be taken too far.

Personally, I wish I was more inclined to respond more often to the thoughtful, polite posts. I tend to think that posting something that says "that's a good idea!" and nothing further will come across as banal or disengenous-- and tend to be more drawn to posts that demand response, or require crowd control. I can say that thoughtful posts are more effective at persuading the opinion of a dev that happens to read them, even if we don't generally comment as we probably should.

You'd think that would just make sense to people, but the prevailing opinion seems to be that being loud and abrasive will-- if not change someone's mind-- get you what you want. I'm not sure I've ever met a dev who said "that fan was so rude and obnoxious-- I now want to make the game they're demanding in order to make them happy" but some people seem to think that's how it works. Perhaps there is a perception that, on the few occasions that an outcry has met with results those results came about solely because of the outcry, and thus reinforced the mindset? Which is too bad.

Personally I'm certain that all the devs here appreciate those posters who go out of their way to elevate the level of discourse on the forums. Indeed, we've had conversations about particular posters who have impressed us (and will even pay special attention when they post). So one should not fear that their reasonable posts are going completely unheeded... even if it's always possible some might get lost amid the general rumblings of the threads. We cannot, after all, read everything.

Modifié par David Gaider, 29 septembre 2012 - 07:15 .

[deuce985]

Avejajed wrote...

deuce985 wrote...

I'd like to burn that image from my mind right before bed. Thanks.

Better than having me in your dreams. That could be a lot worse you know.

[Plaintiff]

addiction21 wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...
snip

Go back to the pug in a skullcap. That man chewing is distracting.

Nooooo!

It's too small for me to be sure, but I'm relatively certain that's Archie Kennedy from Hornblower, and he's badass.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 29 septembre 2012 - 07:21 .