138 réponses à ce sujet

[Mr.BlazenGlazen]

David Gaider wrote...

addiction21 wrote...
If they are no longer doing what you like then there is someone else out in the world doing that. Let the creators of the world do their thing.

While I get what you're saying, I'll politely disagree. To an extent, yes-- if someone doesn't like the kind of games we're making now or the stories we're writing, even if they used to, there comes a point where they should move on to something that they do like.

We have not and do not, however, subscribe to the "suck it up and like it" attitude. If we did, we wouldn't engage fans at all. We wouldn't do things like make the EC for ME3-- which, yes, came after defending our creation. We will do that, after all, as these games are our creation. My point is that they also belong to the fans. We invited them to have a personal investment in what we make. It would be just as presumptuous for us to ignore that when it's convenient for us as it would be for fans to ignore our ownership when it's convenient for them. Ideally we'll walk a line between making what we desire and listening as much as we can-- to ALL opinions politely offered here.

I wish all of bioware had that same mentality, and not just you and the DA team. 

[Chipaway111]

I've only been on the BSN for about a year now, and got to say, I really like it. Most of the time. My only other haunt is youtube and it's safe to say that just feels me with disdain for my fellow man, but this place actually has intelligent (most of the time) discussions going on with a good amount of humour. Not to mention the devs dropping in and contributing is a bonus, I haven't noticed the OP's concerns but I tend to avoid a majority of threads due to my crippling fear of controversy, even on the internet.

Now that I'm done with all the saccharine stuff I've got to go do something devoid of human contact, lest I develop feelings.

[Solmanian]

The fact is that the BSN changed. It used to be a place to share thoughts and ideas, give and recieve advice about technical or gameplay problems. The biggest porblem we had to worry about was an overabbundance of talimancers. But during the last couple of years it changed. The atmosphere became toxic and people started being realy abusive towards bioware. It started after EA bought the company, but there's no point scapegoating them. Dissing EA was "cool", and since bioware was part of EA they saw no problem dissing on them either. I've been a BW fan for fifteen years and I still feel that even the worst BW made RPG is still better than most of the competition. There are just too many RPG's out there, with cardboard NPC's and a plot that goes nowhere.

The BSN mods are by far the most tolerant I ever encountered; I know for a fact bethesda routinely delete posts and ban posters that criticise aspects of their games. It didn't surprise me at all when the likes of IGN claimed certain BW staff members left because of the fan reaction to ME3; BW has allways been the most sensitive to it's fans, and the community (I know it's not the entire fanbase, but simply the most vocal part of it) abused that relationship.

[Grizzly46]

David Gaider wrote...

Grizzly46 wrote...
For example: In ME1 a lot of people (not me) complained about the Mako missions (not the mako itself), but in ME2, everything Mako was gone, and this is not the only instance of over-reaction.

Be careful in assuming that any change which is something that's been complained about on the forums has been changed only because it's been complained about on the forums. That's seldom the case. If there were developers who hated the Mako missions as much as some fans, they'd be able to discern the reasons for their dislike very well.

It's actually pretty seldom that a change will be made based on an opinion that not a single member of the development team personally holds. Devs don't always agree with each other, but if we made decisions based only on what we thoght other people wanted, I agree that would be a pretty crappy way to go about things.

I'm sorry, but I refuse to think you don't care one iota about what the fans say - you ask for the fans opinions; you added the EV to ME3; and most importantly, the parachuting enemies in DA2 were gone in Legacy. Don't tell me that was just because the Bioware people thought those 'features' sucked, and you ask for opinions for shts n' giggles.

You are people like the rest of us, and the fact that there are a few of the staff posting here makes me think there are a lot more just reading the forums. Therefore, any critizism against you has to have an impact of some kind on you, for better or worse. Frankly, I pity you since you have gotten so much crap thrown at you, and often because of the wrong reasons.
You see, its not only you who seem to have difficulties asking that very important question, 'why'.

[TheJediSaint]

David Gaider wrote...

addiction21 wrote...
If they are no longer doing what you like then there is someone else out in the world doing that. Let the creators of the world do their thing.

While I get what you're saying, I'll politely disagree. To an extent, yes-- if someone doesn't like the kind of games we're making now or the stories we're writing, even if they used to, there comes a point where they should move on to something that they do like.

We have not and do not, however, subscribe to the "suck it up and like it" attitude. If we did, we wouldn't engage fans at all. We wouldn't do things like make the EC for ME3-- which, yes, came after defending our creation. We will do that, after all, as these games are our creation. My point is that they also belong to the fans. We invited them to have a personal investment in what we make. It would be just as presumptuous for us to ignore that when it's convenient for us as it would be for fans to ignore our ownership when it's convenient for them. Ideally we'll walk a line between making what we desire and listening as much as we can-- to ALL opinions politely offered here.

I admit, I wasn't a fan of EC for ME3; it didn't really address what I found wrong with the ending.   However, it was still very well done and of surprising depth and quality for a free download.  I greatly apperciate the amount of respect that Bioware shows for the opinions of their fans, even if their fans don't show them the same respect.  

[SamaraDraven]

I think that respect and consideration are things that should be the norm and only degrade if we allow them. In short, rude behavior becomes the norm if we all just roll over and accept it - like a dog wanting a belly rub so much that he lies down knowing he stands just as good a chance at being kicked instead. The OP is doing her part to reverse the trend and doing it respectfully and with consideration. It's admirable.

We all have opinions and we all can be passionate about them but, ultimately, no one's opinion is more or less valid than another. I find keeping that in mind helps mitigate some of my own frustration. I also find that the more I strive to remain rational, the less affected I am by negative comments here. It's a kind of detachment that has served me well. We're all adults or nearly so (at least we should be if we're playing Dragon Age) and there's no reason for anyone not to take a moment to cool off and try to be reasonable, rather than flying off the handle.

Lately it seems some posters can't claim passionate anger as the impetus for their nasty remarks but feel they can just be that way because they desire to. Some have come across as passive aggressive and some forget to clarify that they are speaking only from their own opinion. It'd be nice if we all could learn to simply like what we like, not judge or generalize others for what they like, and not hold our opinions and/or our interpretations of the games and their content as sacred facts.

These aren't rules that the mods can post, per se. They're only things that we should try to remember. Being adults, we're kind of expected to and I don't think it's too much to ask.

[David Gaider]

Grizzly46 wrote...
I'm sorry, but I refuse to think you don't care one iota about what the fans say - you ask for the fans opinions; you added the EV to ME3; and most importantly, the parachuting enemies in DA2 were gone in Legacy. Don't tell me that was just because the Bioware people thought those 'features' sucked, and you ask for opinions for shts n' giggles.

You are people like the rest of us, and the fact that there are a few of the staff posting here makes me think there are a lot more just reading the forums. Therefore, any critizism against you has to have an impact of some kind on you, for better or worse. Frankly, I pity you since you have gotten so much crap thrown at you, and often because of the wrong reasons.

Where did I say we don't care at all? I just said that one should not assume that the only reason something is changed between games is because fans complained about it or requested it. We developers have opinions on our games as well-- some things we like, some things we hate. There is rarely consensus... but unlike a modding team we must be professionals and realize that, at some point, a direction has to be chosen if we're ever going to get the game out the door. So until that happens we will argue and champion our various desires like any fan might (and with far more personally at stake than it being our hobby).

The opinions of fans can (and sometimes has) changed the opinion of a developer-- that's the real possibility offered to you guys with regards to affecting development-- but, failing that, I can't recall anything that was implemented in a game solely because fans complained/wanted it but nobody on the dev team agreed with that opinion. Doesn't happen.

Modifié par David Gaider, 29 septembre 2012 - 07:44 .

[WhiteKnyght]

I think the problem is that people go to extremes.

Devs come in and say they are listening, but when the change isn't exactly like what each person wanted, they say you lied.

Devs don't come in and say nothing, and the people say you're ignoring them along with a whole bunch of insults.

There's no way to win either way. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. And it would arguably make others afraid of voicing an opinion or suggesting anything at all, for fear of inciting because the others might have made the devs sensitive.

[septembervirgin]

Avejajed wrote...
Stop treating us like red-headed stepchildren, k? We're not some running twitter joke. We care the most.

They treat us pretty well, I think, considering it's a commercial interaction and not, say, adoption.  Just because some merchant tells you stories for a half-hundred dollars, doesn't mean they should be avuncular in the slightest.  I am pretty sure it's normal human tendency towards sympathy plus economic self-preservation that they react to us at all.

The way I see it, no one owes anyone.  They make these games, we buy these games, this is a commercial bulletin board for consumers who purchase their game (or who are just curious about these games).  So the real problem isn't complaints -- we all have every right to complain -- but rather negative interactions between consumers.

I don't really mind people who build a shrine to Bioware and Bioware games.  I'm rather grateful to the saviors of the CRPG myself -- both Bioware and Black Isle (Obsidian if you will).  But the matter close to my heart is human creation as a whole.  Bioware products are simply an iota of the grand sum of makings.  I like them too, but I'm not so interested in their protection from my dreams nor from a solitary and contemplative life, especially at my age.  So I don't think they're treating me badly when they make artistic and personal and commercial decisions that distress me.  I won't buy Mass Effect, actually, because I don't like its style, and that's where I am aesthetically.  I will buy Dragon Age games although I feel it contains a higher amount of parody than I usually enjoy in a fantasy role-playing game: another aesthetic stance.  I like art and have a taste in art and I feel games are a particle of human makings that sometimes we might call art, depending on our views.

But as karamouche is prone to sing, "tra la la la la la blah blah blah".  I can only state that we're all being more serious than the crowd on the soap opera bulletin boards.  I'm not sure it's any less than neurosis we are experiencing in ourselves, but our neurosis is predictable given the times we're in.

Just please don't expect Bioware to be anything more than people who work for a living.  They're not really Morrigan and Leliana, they're not really Cullen and the Maker and the Stone.  They might be winged slobbery mabari though... and in that, they're much like me and everyone else.  Right?

[Elrena]

Avejajed wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

Avejajed wrote...

They are never going to take us seriously unless we stop acting like half-wit orcs every time someone disagrees with us. I feel like they think we're some kind of big joke and I really can't believe any of you want that. I need to take my own advice sometimes too, I'll admit that. But these forums have really just become a really hateful place- it's one thing to get it from other forumites, it's another to get it from the devs themselves. A little respect for others goes a long way. It's a lesson I'm learning still.

As much as I can understand your desire for a little more harmony (or failing that, two semesters of Logic mandatory for everyone) around these parts - there's kind of a downward spiral here. Imagine you were a dev in a forum, were people abuse even threads like this to tell you how much your games suck - would you be able to muster up the patience to carefully consider each and every case individually, after years of this? 

No, I see your point. It is our fault, really. But I do hope somewhere, they remember that some of us really -do- care, and we really -do- appreciate them and that they can remember that although this forum is an angry mob full of people with pitchforks, we're still here because at some point, they made an impression on our lives. I was in a bad place in my life when I started playing Origins. I was in a place where I felt very out of place, everyone I knew now lived 3000 miles away, and I was lonely. And someone at work suggested I play the game, since they knew I was a gamer and that I liked Fable a lot. So I picked it up, and after a long, annoying day at my new job, that I hated, I'd come home and be a hero. A lot of has changed since then, during my playthrough I met my now fiancee. I got a new, great job. When I play Origins now, I remember all the changes I went through- all those lonely nights when the BSN and my Warden were my companions. So yeah, maybe I'm a nerd, and maybe I do have stupid opinions, but I care about this place. The friends I have made here will be friends forever. Two are coming to my wedding. I'm vacationing next year with several more. Our husbands and boyfriends have become friends. So this place is special to me. And  I have every right to not want it to become a place that is no longer welcoming.  I know some of you are going to say that's awfully dramatic. That I'm reading way too much into a forum and maybe I ought to get out of the house sometimes. But I don't care. I'm not going to aplogize for being who I am.
Or thinking what I think.

This.
OP, you are a beautiful person. There is nothing wrong with wanting to make the community a better place for everyone. Thank you for posting this, it made me smile when I was having a really bad day.  These games have done a lot for us, and the amount of negativity swimming around on these forums drove me away from them for over two years. I'm glad to be back, and I hope with posts like yours we can make the community a happy place again

[forestmaiden86]

I rarely visit this forum any more choosing to discuss matters on the Alistair fansite on facebook... it has some what transformed into a basic bioware fansite due to the members tend top be positive and more importantly respect one another's differing opinions.
Avejajed I agree with your comments about respect with I believe (a little naively) that it should be applied in all aspects of life and in particular the internet where I find that people tend to act in ways they never would in reality, spewing insults they would never say to peoples faces.... there need to be civility.
I hope that the storms around this forum will decrease and perhaps some fans will return to these forums. Despite not enjoying all aspects of all Bioware games which would be impossible and I wouldnt blame any one as its a differing of taste. I continue to think of myself as a loyal fan, I truly hope that the founders didnt leave due to the negativity of fans.

[jillabender]

Thanks so much for this post, Avajejad – I appreciate that you were willing to put yourself out there and make yourself vulnerable, because you touched on something that I've been feeling as well.

Personally, I completely empathize with the dev team when I see them forced to deal with rude fans who resort to personal attacks. I often find myself wanting to apologize to them for the behaviour of those fans, even though it's not something within my control. The amount of needlessly rude negativity and sniping that I see from some posters sometimes makes me feel powerless and frustrated – which is what you seem to be expressing, as well.

David Gaider wrote...

Fans tend to get touchy when the subject of entitlement comes up-- possibly because when it's brought up in a negative connotation they interpret that to apply to everything they do. Which it may, but that really depends on the behavior of the individual. It's one thing to feel entitled to express concern or an opinion regarding something you like a lot and feel invested in. It's another thing to feel that investment means you're entitled to dictate how it should be made to your personal preference. Like many things which are generally good, it can be taken too far.

Well said – no one should have to apologize for having a strong emotional investment in a game or for having strong opinions about the direction it takes. The problem comes when people have difficulty separating their feelings about a game from their feelings about the developers as people, and start to see the mere fact that a game doesn't match their personal preferences as a betrayal or a personal attack against them on the part of the developers.

Modifié par jillabender, 30 septembre 2012 - 06:01 .