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[Quicksilver26]

deuce985 wrote...

Quicksilver26 wrote...

Anders came off vary gayish to me in da:a with his gold earring and Ser Pounce-a-lot. i kinda don't see how every one seem to think he was so striate

<_<

How did his cat signify he was "gayish"?

not the cat so much as how he gushed just seem stereotypical gay i guess i don't know the boy just pinged my gaydar hard is all

[Quicksilver26]

Palipride47 wrote...

Quicksilver26 wrote...

Anders came off vary gayish to me in da:a with his gold earring and Ser Pounce-a-lot. i kinda don't see how every one seem to think he was so striate

Haha, *flamer stereotype* gaydar went off a bit with that one. 

His lines in in DAO about the "quick trysts", and DA2 about his time at the brothels and  the Fereldan Circle, where "everyone was kissing everyone" just confirmed it. 

Also, lucky Amell Warden getting thrown in Fereldan Circle, why the hell couldn't I kiss everyone?! Kirkwall Circle just sounded dryer than a Bob Jones University mixer. 

to me he just kinda seemed like a free loveing hippy out for a good time 

Modifié par Quicksilver26, 29 septembre 2012 - 05:24 .

[Palipride47]

Vexille wrote...

Palipride47 wrote...

Vexille wrote...

Palipride47 wrote...

I'm going to wade (toes first) in the waters here (with my sig) and explain why I support such a thing.

When you say "Fenris and Merrill were poorly done bis," it makes me think that you may see "bi" as a personality trait, something you flaunt, like Zevran and Isabella. 

Bisexual i[/u][/b]s not a personality trait or a caricature[u]. It is equivalent to being straight. You do not "flaunt" straight. Was Alistair a "straight" stereotype? No, he was just a guy. Who had a particular orientation. Bisexuals don't "need to add anything," just like straight people don't. 

Maybe I can do word replacement, and show you where my view comes in...

Vexille wrote...

     Am I the only one tired of getting so many "Conveniently" ***STRAIGHT*** characters in bioware games? I have nothing against people who are ***STRAIGHT*** I just feel its a copout by bioware. I LIKED in ME3 how they actually wrote ***STRAIGHT*** characters who seemed like real people and not walking stereotypes (looking at you DA2). I'm also fine with ***STRAIGHT*** characters when it makes sense and its written into their characters (I was fine with Zevran and Isabella for instance).

But I feel Bioware goes overboard and just starts making characters ***STRAIGHT***.. for the sake of being ***STRAIGHT***and adding nothing to their characters. Biggest offenders for me were characters who had appeared previously and are suddenly ***STRAIGHT***, Kaidan and Anders come to mind here... some hints at it in the 1st game they appeared in would have been nice. Merril and Fenris struck me as poorly done "***STRAIGHT***" as they never seem to make mention of the fact that they are ***STRAIGHT***.. hell I think "PCsexual" fits better since they wanna bang the PC regardless of gender, which to me is poor writing. I mean really, the PC just HAPPENS to put together a team thats like 50% switch hitters?


maybe I'm way off here but, I think the characters come out better when they are written as Gay/straight/BI from the get go. Some LI's being unavalible to certain genders is GOOD. One of my faorite moments in ME3 was getting shot down by the gay indian chick as manshep! Less [b]***STRAIGHT*** characters and NO PCsexual characters bioware!

Get it?

Maybe I didnt make my point as clear as I would have liked. If you Had only romanced Merril as a male Hawk, would you have any idea Merril was BI by her interactions in the game?

No. And I'm fine with that. It was

A. how a bisexual person (or at least, me, as a bisexual person) interacts with society. I'm not going to say "oh yeah, I'm bi, btw" if I'm interested in a guy. I'm interested in the guy, that info doesn't matter. 

B. there waas horrible fallout when Anders was shown to hit on you regardless of gender. Men who wanted to play heteros DID NOT LIKE THAT. 

I hope I didnt offend (as that was not my intention) I just felt it was lazy writing (maybe I'm way off and its more realistic, as you said) But in your example of Alistar and his straightness, I swear I remember several instances of banter/conversation that gave the impression he was straight regardless of your PC's gender.

Ok, I'll give you benefit of the doubt, usually these never end well, and lazy writing ALWAYS makes it look worse.

Again, the "you don't know I'm bi" thing is the best "compromise" they could do, without everyone getting ARRRGHFLARGHARSH NO ****** ANDERS while giving people like me more options and feeling more included. Another EA game from my preteen years, Sims, always had this problem with its players. They got flack over including "civil unions," but it was the best compromise they could do.

I woudl argue it isn't a compromise, since I am drawing on my personal experience as a bisexual woman to explain the realism. I do NOT fit that "nympho" stereotype. You would not be able to guess my orientation unless I told you. It is exactly how you may feel as hetero (I assume). No one expects rampant stereotypes.

If you are straight, you wil not understand, just like I could never understand another race, culture or religion as much as the one I was born into, lived in, or are perceived as part of. 

Modifié par Palipride47, 29 septembre 2012 - 04:48 .

[Vexille]

Faerunner wrote...

Vexille wrote...

     Am I the only one tired of getting so many "Conveniently" Bi characters in bioware games? I have nothing against people who are Bi I just feel its a copout by bioware. I LIKED in ME3 how they actually wrote gay characters who seemed like real people and not walking stereotypes (looking at you DA2). I'm also fine with Bi characters when it makes sense and its written into their characters (I was fine with Zevran and Isabella for instance).

In other words, it's all right for characters to be Bi as long as they act like stereotypical "omnisexual nymphos that will screw anything that moves" bisexuals like Zevran and Isabela? If they're more quiet, introverted, and less likely to flaunt their sexuality like Merrill and Fenris, they become "conveniently bi" because they don't act like how a good portion of our society expects bisexual people to act?

I liked that Zev and Isabella were BI regardless of any player action. I felt Merril and Fenris were lazily written and werent "bi" so much as having there sexual orientation decided by whether or not the player chose a heart option in dialogue.

I'm not asking to be beat over the head with it but maybe some party banter or a comment by a group member that Merrils/FEnris's eyes were lingering on some woman/man as you were traveling.

Just some kind of indication that the character has a sexual preference that is NOT determined by the PC

Modifié par Vexille, 29 septembre 2012 - 04:49 .

[N147]

AlienWolf728 wrote...

inb4lock... also she wasn't Indian, she was British/English(?).

Turkish

[Overlord_Mephist]

Vexille wrote...

Faerunner wrote...

Vexille wrote...

     Am I the only one tired of getting so many "Conveniently" Bi characters in bioware games? I have nothing against people who are Bi I just feel its a copout by bioware. I LIKED in ME3 how they actually wrote gay characters who seemed like real people and not walking stereotypes (looking at you DA2). I'm also fine with Bi characters when it makes sense and its written into their characters (I was fine with Zevran and Isabella for instance).

In other words, it's all right for characters to be Bi as long as they act like stereotypical "omnisexual nymphos that will screw anything that moves" bisexuals like Zevran and Isabela? If they're more quiet, introverted, and less likely to flaunt their sexuality like Merrill and Fenris, they become "conveniently bi" because they don't act like how a good portion of our society expects bisexual people to act?

I liked that Zev and Isabella were BI regardless of any player action. I felt Merril and Fenris were lazily written and werent "bi" so much as having there sexual orientation decided by whether or not the player chose a heart option in dialogue.

I'm not asking to be beat over the head with it but maybe some party banter or a comment by a group member that Merrils/FEnris's eyes were lingering on some woman/man as you were traveling.

That IS being beat over the head with it......

"OH hey Fenris you're into men too! Totally uncommon in Thedas as such I must remark on it"

Zevran and Isabella were promiscuous regardless of any player action.  It had nothing to do with being bi but rather they'd sleep with anything that moves.  Unless that is what a BI person is to you

[Plaintiff]

Anders makes at least one comment to Nathaniel that could be construed as flirtatious. Whether or not he's actually interested in Nathaniel that way can never be known.

And for what it's worth, despite his confirmed heterosexuality, certain dialogues between Alistair and a male warden definitely border on homoerotic.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 29 septembre 2012 - 04:54 .

[Palipride47]

Overlord_Mephist wrote...

Vexille wrote...

Faerunner wrote...

Vexille wrote...

     Am I the only one tired of getting so many "Conveniently" Bi characters in bioware games? I have nothing against people who are Bi I just feel its a copout by bioware. I LIKED in ME3 how they actually wrote gay characters who seemed like real people and not walking stereotypes (looking at you DA2). I'm also fine with Bi characters when it makes sense and its written into their characters (I was fine with Zevran and Isabella for instance).

In other words, it's all right for characters to be Bi as long as they act like stereotypical "omnisexual nymphos that will screw anything that moves" bisexuals like Zevran and Isabela? If they're more quiet, introverted, and less likely to flaunt their sexuality like Merrill and Fenris, they become "conveniently bi" because they don't act like how a good portion of our society expects bisexual people to act?

I liked that Zev and Isabella were BI regardless of any player action. I felt Merril and Fenris were lazily written and werent "bi" so much as having there sexual orientation decided by whether or not the player chose a heart option in dialogue.

I'm not asking to be beat over the head with it but maybe some party banter or a comment by a group member that Merrils/FEnris's eyes were lingering on some woman/man as you were traveling.

That IS being beat over the head with it......

"OH hey Fenris you're into men too! Totally uncommon in Thedas as such I must remark on it"

Zevran and Isabella were promiscuous regardless of any player action.  It had nothing to do with being bi but rather they'd sleep with anything that moves.  Unless that is what a BI person is to you

Please read this. Over, and over and over again. This is the point I was trying to make. Nympho Bisexuals as the Norm are porno tropes and comedy fodder for sitcoms. And....that is about it. 

These are not "bisexual" behaviors. These are (for lack of better term) promiscious behaviors.

Now I will leave before thread gets locked or head explodes.

[Icinix]

Plaintiff wrote...

Anders makes at least one comment to Nathaniel that could be construed as flirtatious. Whether or not he's actually interested in Nathaniel that way can never be known.

And for what it's worth, despite his confirmed heterosexuality, certain dialogues between Alistair and a male warden definitely border on homoerotic.

Was that because originally Alistair was meant to be a love interest for both male and female characters though?

I thought I read somewhere that he was going to be at one stage - but they removed it.

[Palipride47]

Plaintiff wrote...

Anders makes at least one comment to Nathaniel that could be construed as flirtatious. Whether or not he's actually interested in Nathaniel that way can never be known.

And for what it's worth, despite his confirmed heterosexuality, certain dialogues between Alistair and a male warden definitely border on homoerotic.

****head exploded****

[Orian Tabris]

Icinix wrote...

Quicksilver26 wrote...

Anders came off vary gayish to me in da:a with his gold earring and Ser Pounce-a-lot. i kinda don't see how every one seem to think he was so striate

His character as a whole did appear to get totally butchered and put back together different between Awakening and DA2.

Also - I don't think a gold earings and a love of cats implies anything really.

Exactly! There was no real indication that Anders was attracted to men, but he every so often, clearly showed he is attracted to women.

Example: Talking to Velanna during banter.

Anders: "Did I ever tell you I find tattoos on a woman, incredibly attractive?"
Velanna: "And did I ever tell you, that I find most humans physically and morally repulsive?"
Anders: "Good to know!

[Plaintiff]

Icinix wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Anders makes at least one comment to Nathaniel that could be construed as flirtatious. Whether or not he's actually interested in Nathaniel that way can never be known.

And for what it's worth, despite his confirmed heterosexuality, certain dialogues between Alistair and a male warden definitely border on homoerotic.

Was that because originally Alistair was meant to be a love interest for both male and female characters though?

I thought I read somewhere that he was going to be at one stage - but they removed it.

I wish he had been, I think that would've been interesting to see played out.

I wonder if we'd be getting the same amount of complaints now if all four love interests in Origins had been bisexual. I suspect that the people complaining are mostly heterosexual, and are upset at what they perceive as the loss of something that was just for them.

[Palipride47]

Plaintiff wrote...

Icinix wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Anders makes at least one comment to Nathaniel that could be construed as flirtatious. Whether or not he's actually interested in Nathaniel that way can never be known.

And for what it's worth, despite his confirmed heterosexuality, certain dialogues between Alistair and a male warden definitely border on homoerotic.

Was that because originally Alistair was meant to be a love interest for both male and female characters though?

I thought I read somewhere that he was going to be at one stage - but they removed it.

I wish he had been, I think that would've been interesting to see played out.

I wonder if we'd be getting the same amount of complaints now if all four love interests in Origins had been bisexual. I suspect that the people complaining are mostly heterosexual, and are upset at what they perceive as the loss of something that was just for them.

Just like our LIs, it seems our players are possessive as well....

[Plaintiff]

Orian Tabris wrote...

Icinix wrote...

Quicksilver26 wrote...

Anders came off vary gayish to me in da:a with his gold earring and Ser Pounce-a-lot. i kinda don't see how every one seem to think he was so striate

His character as a whole did appear to get totally butchered and put back together different between Awakening and DA2.

Also - I don't think a gold earings and a love of cats implies anything really.

Exactly! There was no real indication that Anders was attracted to men, but he every so often, clearly showed he is attracted to women.

Example: Talking to Velanna during banter.

Anders: "Did I ever tell you I find tattoos on a woman, incredibly attractive?"
Velanna: "And did I ever tell you, that I find most humans physically and morally repulsive?"
Anders: "Good to know!

We barely get to know the companions in Awakening at all. Just because Anders doesn't openly flirt with male characters doesn't mean he could never ever be attracted to one. Most gay/bisexual men do not go around hitting on every male they encounter.

By the same token, making flirtatious overtures at a woman doesn't necessarily mean a man is legitimately interested in her. Anders knows Velanna is aggressive and dislikes humans. He could simply be trying to rile her up for his own amusement.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 29 septembre 2012 - 05:08 .

[Sharn01]

I prefer the all bisexual crowd unless they are going to implement a lot more possible romance options. Had the only gay option for my female Hawke been disease ridden and ****ty Isabela, it would have been another mark against the game.

[whykikyouwhy]

 @OP - While the availability of LIs to a PC of either gender may be perceived as "convenient," I don't feel that it is indicative of lazy writing or anything of the sort. Gay characters, like gay people, are, at their core, people - a medley of traits and qualities. People may identify themselves as many things, may feel aligned to different things, but not everyone is outward about those aspects of themselves. They usually move, act, and react from the sum total, rather than individual parts.

We tend to label or categorize the characters based on who they are willing to romance, but that doesn't necessarily mean that those characters (if real flesh and blood individuals) would label themselves in the same manner. No one in DA2, or DA:O, identifies themselves as bisexual. It's not a word they use, and while stories or banter shared may provide circumstantial evidence in one manner or direction, it may not be true for how that character would consider his/herself. Some characters are more than willing to share information about their personal lives, others are not - and as such, we, as players, only have a finite amount of information to base our assumptions on.

The characters are not so much bisexual, as they are, from a game mechanics perspective, available for romance. And even if that romance option were limited in some capacity (like Sebastian is only available as a LI for a female Hawke), it's still a game mechanic on a deeper level. But from a writing perspective, from how the characters are fleshed out, I think the approach was to show the sum totals - to focus on the various things that make each character unique, of which, sexuality is only a portion. If I look at any character, Aveline, Merrill, Isabela, Anders, etc, I don't see them as their (perceived/assumed) sexual identity first. Rather, I see the stoic and loyal guard captain, the shy yet dedicated elven mage, the free-spirited hero-pirate, and the anguished mage who is struggling to hold on to his heart. 

Personally, I see the vividness, the realness, of these characters as being about the sum total of their parts, and therefore, their availability as LIs is, to me, not at all a "cop-out" or something that lessens their impact. 

Modifié par whykikyouwhy, 29 septembre 2012 - 05:11 .

[Icinix]

Palipride47 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Icinix wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Anders makes at least one comment to Nathaniel that could be construed as flirtatious. Whether or not he's actually interested in Nathaniel that way can never be known.

And for what it's worth, despite his confirmed heterosexuality, certain dialogues between Alistair and a male warden definitely border on homoerotic.

Was that because originally Alistair was meant to be a love interest for both male and female characters though?

I thought I read somewhere that he was going to be at one stage - but they removed it.

I wish he had been, I think that would've been interesting to see played out.

I wonder if we'd be getting the same amount of complaints now if all four love interests in Origins had been bisexual. I suspect that the people complaining are mostly heterosexual, and are upset at what they perceive as the loss of something that was just for them.

Just like our LIs, it seems our players are possessive as well....

lol.

I am not a fan of character whose sexuality alters based on what the player chooses in dialogue - but I have no issue with a character who is a bisexual, straight, homosexual or prefers the companionship of fine china.

Its the gameplay element of a character being altered through dialogue.

I would be arguing just a strongly were Anders suddenly to turn straight when you reject his advances in DA2. 

[Vexille]

Overlord_Mephist wrote...

Vexille wrote...

Faerunner wrote...

Vexille wrote...

     Am I the only one tired of getting so many "Conveniently" Bi characters in bioware games? I have nothing against people who are Bi I just feel its a copout by bioware. I LIKED in ME3 how they actually wrote gay characters who seemed like real people and not walking stereotypes (looking at you DA2). I'm also fine with Bi characters when it makes sense and its written into their characters (I was fine with Zevran and Isabella for instance).

In other words, it's all right for characters to be Bi as long as they act like stereotypical "omnisexual nymphos that will screw anything that moves" bisexuals like Zevran and Isabela? If they're more quiet, introverted, and less likely to flaunt their sexuality like Merrill and Fenris, they become "conveniently bi" because they don't act like how a good portion of our society expects bisexual people to act?

I liked that Zev and Isabella were BI regardless of any player action. I felt Merril and Fenris were lazily written and werent "bi" so much as having there sexual orientation decided by whether or not the player chose a heart option in dialogue.

I'm not asking to be beat over the head with it but maybe some party banter or a comment by a group member that Merrils/FEnris's eyes were lingering on some woman/man as you were traveling.

That IS being beat over the head with it......

"OH hey Fenris you're into men too! Totally uncommon in Thedas as such I must remark on it"

Zevran and Isabella were promiscuous regardless of any player action.  It had nothing to do with being bi but rather they'd sleep with anything that moves.  Unless that is what a BI person is to you

I know they are Bi because they mention intercourse with both genders, their "promiscuity" has nothing to do with it. Most straight and gay characters in game hinted at or showed there orientation at some point.

Since this is a game and not real life they have to be less subtle when presenting the characters. Bioware SHOWED us that Traynor was a lesbian in game through conversations etc, they SHOWED us Ashley Williams was straight. I dont see why asking that bioware give some kind of indication of a characters sexual orientation IN GAME is somehow awful and bigoted. Im not saying make all BI's ****s, I'm saying that at some point dropping the player a hint in game would be better story telling. I dont think having to look up aspects of a companion on the wiki is good story telling.

[Cyne]

They should keep the everyone being Bi thing to give players more options, but change it so the LI acts differently according to the protag's gender. Like when Zevran says things like "you're such a gorgeous woman". He obviously wouldn't say that to the male protags, and it makes the relationship feel unique & special.

Modifié par Cyne, 29 septembre 2012 - 05:37 .

[StarLitStranger]

You dont even notice it unless you romance them and it adds replay value to the game.

[FenrirBlackDragon]

I don't mind it all that much, actually. I care more about substance and character development, being more than about one issue like "pro-mage" or "pro-templar" (looking at you, Fenris and Anders, though mostly Anders).

[Quicksilver26]

PurebredCorn wrote...

I prefer having all the LI being bisexual. I like that it's inclusive, but mostly I like it because I'm selfish and want to be able to romance whomever the heck I feel like romancing regardless of my character's gender. It's simply convenient.

hear hear +100:wizard: (Morrigan will always be the one that got away:crying:)

[Shinobu]

I like having some NPCs who are unquestionably friends only. Having all of the characters being romanceable by any PC seems unrealistic and smacks of some sort of harem fantasy to me. I liked that ME3 had different pools of romanceable characters based on the PC's gender instead of making everyone Shepard-sexual.