390 réponses à ce sujet

[StElmo]

One thing that has impressed me greatly and kept me in the DA game is the portrayal of the Chantry as apower hungry, dominant and manipulative force, in the DA universe.

It draws heavy parallels with the historical and modern day context of the Catholic Church in real world society - which I find absolutely fascinating.

If DA3 really ramps this up (something I expect is being hinted at with a title called "inquisition") I would be happy to put my money on the table, purely based on principle.

Exposing the flaws, injustices and overall powerplay of institutionalized religion in society is a controversial but highly respectable theme.

I really hope they do something outlandish and creative with this opportunity. If they don't and I will know this before I put down my money (from fan reviews) I will be sorely dissapointed.

Kind Regards,

Elmo

Modifié par StElmo, 29 septembre 2012 - 12:05 .

[StElmo]

Changed the thread title - I mean that at least more then DA1 and 2 does.

[Luckywallace]

Sounds good, though I appreciate that they do reveal within DA some good works done by people in the Chantry and some idealistic people, as well as all of the greed, politics and manipulation. Generally it's a negative institution but there are good people within in. Sort of like how I thought Lelianna was a bit nuts with her religious devotion to the Maker, but she was nice enough as a person so I didn't want to cut her head off (unlike some other Wardens...).

I'm a staunch agnostic myself if that gives any context.

[nightscrawl]

StElmo wrote...

Exposing the flaws, injustices and overall powerplay of institutionalized religion in society is a controversial but highly respectable theme.

As long as fair play is given to charitable works and the various good people that are also there, sure I don't mind. Or are you one of those that thinks that all such organizations are corrupt at their core, all members are willing participants in that corruption, and that there is no redeeming value in them whatsoever?

While we saw extremely little of the Chantry's good side in DA2, there were a few examples of it in DAO. I don't think those should be ignored.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 29 septembre 2012 - 12:32 .

[Reznore57]

I don't want the Chantry to be evil , I see no point in it.
Sure i want manipulation , hidden agenda , juicy secrets etc...that's just more fun.
But I do not want this to turn into a "religion is bad " kind of thing , and I'm pretty sure it won't go there.

Let's not forget that for all the "evil" the chantry is doing , life in Thedas seems to have improved from the time of the Imperium.
Yes , the chantry is hypocrite about some stuffs , but they also gave room for people to understand that slavery is a bad thing.

In the big picture , I don't think the chantry is bad , it challenged an old system , made some mistakes itself and will be challenged too.
That's good , that's how a society can evolve .

[Sacred_Fantasy]

StElmo wrote...
I hope DA3:"Insquisition" thematically critiques institutionalized religion.

Or thematically critiques scientific bull**** Abiogenesis who claim man was created from
 soap ( or was is bubble? ) or space magic's "The big bang".

[Il Divo]

Eh, material like this needs to be handled delicately. I thought DA:O and DA2 did a decent enough job of displaying the flaws in an organization like the Chantry without feeling too much like a blatant attack on organized religion. You have corrupt higher-ups, genuine good people, etc.

[ElitePinecone]

Wow. This thread won't end well.

When Mr Gaider suggested the forums had a clique of militants he wasn't kidding.

I... don't agree that an entire game should be based around a critique of organised religion. The player should have the option to critique it, and it certainly looks like it will come up in companion arcs and probably the Templar/mage story, but there are much bigger themes to fry.

The Inquisition itself - if it's not Chantry-based, which looks likely - deals with power, politics, intrigue and player priorities. We seemingly have choices about which methods to use and which ideals to support - this has far more storytelling potential and capacity for drama than a game solely devoted to hammering home the point that institutionalised religion is inherently prone to subversion and corruption. DA's done well enough on that front in the past with smaller storylines (Grace's zealotry and Merideth's casual use of doctrine as a means to power), it doesn't need to make a critique of religion the focal point of the game.

[StElmo]

nightscrawl wrote...

StElmo wrote...

Exposing the flaws, injustices and overall powerplay of institutionalized religion in society is a controversial but highly respectable theme.

As long as fair play is given to charitable works and the various good people that are also there, sure I don't mind. Or are you one of those that thinks that all such organizations are corrupt at their core, all members are willing participants in that corruption, and that there is no redeeming value in them whatsoever?

While we saw extremely little of the Chantry's good side in DA2, there were a few examples of it in DAO. I don't think those should be ignored.

I guess the questions is, should good being done be still called good if being done in the name of something bad?

If the mafia donates to a childrens hospital, does that make the mafia a better thing?

[StElmo]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

StElmo wrote...
I hope DA3:"Insquisition" thematically critiques institutionalized religion.

Or thematically critiques scientific bull**** Abiogenesis who claim man was created from
 soap ( or was is bubble? ) or space magic's "The big bang".

? Sorry?

[DarkKnightHolmes]

No, I get enough religion bashing from Assassin's Creed and the internet.

Modifié par DarkKnightHolmes, 29 septembre 2012 - 12:51 .

[Squeeze the Fish]

I believe this would turn me off to the entire franchise. While I don’t agree with your assessment that DA was trying to portray the Chantry as power-hungry and evil, I wouldn’t might seeing a plotline that revolved around rooting out the “bad eggs” or the righteous overthrowing the corrupt.

But there's a fine line, I think. Religous bashing just for the sake of trying to be "edgy" or "relevent" is, in my opinion, extrodinarily tacky.

[StElmo]

Squeeze the Fish wrote...

I believe this would turn me off to the entire franchise. While I don’t agree with your assessment that DA was trying to portray the Chantry as power-hungry and evil, I wouldn’t might seeing a plotline that revolved around rooting out the “bad eggs” or the righteous overthrowing the corrupt.

But there's a fine line, I think. Religous bashing just for the sake of trying to be "edgy" or "relevent" is, in my opinion, extrodinarily tacky.

Not sure what you mean by tacky. If there is context it can be very insightful.

[King Cousland]

Here we go again. This militant atheism on the forums is tiresome.

Nothing in DA is intended as a direct parallel and while the Chantry does share some similarities with real world institutions, that doesn't mean BioWare should or will use it to make a political point about the real world.

I'm also not surprised that the majority of Chantry-bashers frequently draw parallels with Christianity (particularly Catholicism), perhaps due to their real world prejudices, yet many of those same people rarely criticise things like the Qun or the institutionalised slavery that flourishes in Tevinter, to give just two examples.

If the chips on people's shoulders were knocked off for a minute, they might see that compared to many Theodosian organizations, the Chantry is without doubt a lesser evil. 

Modifié par King Cousland, 29 septembre 2012 - 01:16 .

[StElmo]

simfamSP wrote...

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

No, I get enough religion bashing from Assassin's Creed and the internet.

It's a game based on historical events. It's not bashing, it's history. Or are you telling me that Borgia weren't little poo-heads?

Some religious people are overly sensitive about the facts and history.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

simfamSP wrote...

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

No, I get enough religion bashing from Assassin's Creed and the internet.

It's a game based on historical events. It's not bashing, it's history. Or are you telling me that Borgia weren't little poo-heads?

Well no, I meant the part where everytime I killed some major enemy they always had to shout "There is no after life!" at my face. It gets annoying after a while.

[nightscrawl]

StElmo wrote...

I guess the questions is, should good being done be still called good if being done in the name of something bad?

If the mafia donates to a childrens hospital, does that make the mafia a better thing?

This assumes that the institution as a whole is bad, rather than those who make specific decisions. Justinia V, who is the new Divine in Asunder, and should be there in DA3, seems to be more open minded and tolerant. I'm not saying she is a saint, merely that a willingness to listen says something about her character.

The mafia is not a religious organization, it is a criminal business enterprise. The mafia does not aspire to anything other than having more. I dislike analogies. If you want to compare the Chantry to something, use a real-world religious organization like the Catholic Church. Do you blame all priests and nuns for the child molestation, and the following cover-up? Within the Catholic Chruch itself are factions with various opinions on things like female ordination, birth control, abortion, and same-sex marriage. I see no reason for something similar to not exist within the Chantry, other than the writers might feel it shouldn't be there, which we have no evidence of.

I don't think we have been shown enough scope of the Chantry to make the determination that the whole thing is a lost cause. I am hoping that the next game will provide that scope.

The Revered Mother in Redcliffe didn't care that my Warden was a mage (unlike some other Chantry NPCs, there is an actual reference to this in dialogue). Her only concern was with her parishioners during their time of crisis. Even if she would have cared if the crisis had not happened, the fact that she doesn't do or say anything at least shows that she is a reasonable, thinking person. Certainly not inherently evil.


[edit]
See this post for more elaboration.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 29 septembre 2012 - 01:29 .

[Reznore57]

No offense , St Elmo , but how it can be insightful if you already know what you want to see in it ?

My point is nothing is all black and white , pretty much everything is complicated .

I think power struggle , propaganda and how people react to it , is fascinating .
But it's not a thing that only affect religion , it's in politics , in media , etc...
It's the common tools used to gain /keep /have more power , it's just human nature.

[Il Divo]

simfamSP wrote...

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

No, I get enough religion bashing from Assassin's Creed and the internet.

It's a game based on historical events. It's not bashing, it's history. Or are you telling me that Borgia weren't little poo-heads?

Still, I don't think Assassin's Creed is the best example of what the OP is asking for. AC isn't about teaching us the dangers of religion any more than it's about the ethics of the Assassins killing people. Both these ideas are touched on (briefly), but can't really be considered the major themes of the work. The Assassins are not about exterminating all religious leaders, but anyone in general who prevents free thought. The lead Templars we spend each game killing just happen to be crazies placed in positions of power, which at the time involved religion. Modern day Templars are in charge of corporations, the government, etc, but I wouldn't say AC is about critiquing these institutions either.  

Modifié par Il Divo, 29 septembre 2012 - 01:26 .

[Winterz]

simfamSP wrote...

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

No, I get enough religion bashing from Assassin's Creed and the internet.

It's a game based on historical events. It's not bashing, it's history.

I LOL'd hard

[Wulfram]

The chantry should be shown as an organisation made up of people of diverse outlook and morality.

[mousestalker]

Insquisition? It would be nice if the next Bioware rpg goes after those who pursue their ideological proclivities or fetishes at the expense of good spelling. Especially those dogmas that Bioware has already said they are not interested in.

[Xilizhra]

nightscrawl wrote...

StElmo wrote...

I guess the questions is, should good being done be still called good if being done in the name of something bad?

If the mafia donates to a childrens hospital, does that make the mafia a better thing?

This assumes that the institution as a whole is bad, rather than those who make specific decisions. Justinia V, who is the new Divine in Asunder, and should be there in DA3, seems to be more open minded and tolerant. I'm not saying she is a saint, merely that a willingness to listen says something about her character.

The mafia is not a religious organization, it is a criminal business enterprise. The mafia does not aspire to anything other than having more. I dislike analogies. If you want to compare the Chantry to something, use a real-world religious organization like the Catholic Church. Do you blame all priests and nuns for the child molestation, and the following cover-up? Within the Catholic Chruch itself are factions with various opinions on things like female ordination, birth control, abortion, and same-sex marriage. I see no reason for something similar to not exist within the Chantry, other than the writers might feel it shouldn't be there, which we have no evidence of.

I don't think we have been shown enough scope of the Chantry to make the determination that the whole thing is a lost cause. I am hoping that the next game will provide that scope.

The Revered Mother in Redcliffe didn't care that my Warden was a mage (unlike some other Chantry NPCs, there is an actual reference to this in dialogue). Her only concern was with her parishioners during their time of crisis. Even if she would have cared if the crisis had not happened, the fact that she doesn't do or say anything at least shows that she is a reasonable, thinking person. Certainly not inherently evil.


[edit]
See this post for more elaboration.

It isn't that every member of the Chantry is a lost cause, but that the institution as a whole supports an evil and tyrannical system of control, along with various other kinds of corruption. Its effects on the world is mixed, but it should be opposed inasmuch to prevent them from reconquering the mages in the future, at least.

Also, in regards to your other post: Not every member of the Catholic Church tacitly supports the molestation issue. However, those who would advocate to keep those portions of church doctrine that led to the issue in the first place... to a greater or lesser extent, they do.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 29 septembre 2012 - 01:42 .

[King Cousland]

Wulfram wrote...

The chantry should be shown as an organisation made up of people of diverse outlook and morality.

As it has been thus far.