390 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

What I'm worried about is the idea that all of the wars will be shown to be wrong, with the "right" outcome defeating said mysterious force and introducing compromises everywhere.

I suppose that's a question of the protagonist's priorities - in Origins we were a Warden, and the focus is on ending the Blight. As the Inquisitor, despite any hypothetical possible background choices, the focus seems to be very clearly on finding out who/what the Big Bad is, and ending its threat. The Inquisitor can't just drop everything to crusade against the Chantry for 40 hours (even assuming there was enough unique content), because our role is to investigate and destroy a larger threat.

It's where the sovereignty of the player to roleplay intersects with the authority of the developers to *make* the player character do certain things. Shepard couldn't resign from the Alliance and dance away their life in shady bars because the story necessitated that we be at the very least focused on the mission. 

I'd tend to think compromises won't necessarily be forced on the player, but at some point the overarching plot has to supercede the smaller ones in terms of how much time and attention the game gives it - if only because that's the way the developers planned it. Solving the mage-templar conflict might not be the focus of the game - and I hope we get a variety of options and outcomes as to how we solve it - but I'd think at the very least it'll be there as a major part of it.

The right outcome is very obviously defeating the mysterious force threatening Thedas, because that's what the protagonist's mission is and what the game *only* allows it to be. I doubt it'll lead to mandatory outcomes for the other plots, but we'll have to wait and see.

This would be so much easier if the templars were the main villains... I still contend it'd have fit the plot and offered reasonable chances to support the Chantry. I don't see why this conflict couldn't have been the main focus, if it turns out to not be.

[Dean_the_Young]

I'll make the counter-argument that the mages make better villains, because on the face of it they should be sympathetic. The fact that their revolution could easily devour not only its own children, but also the world, would make them a far more interesting antagonistic force of true believers.

[Xilizhra]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I'll make the counter-argument that the mages make better villains, because on the face of it they should be sympathetic. The fact that their revolution could easily devour not only its own children, but also the world, would make them a far more interesting antagonistic force of true believers.

It wouldn't be handled well enough to avoid pissing off a far larger group of people, I can guarantee that. Ultimately it'd prove a grievous error.

[Dean_the_Young]

Plaintiff wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

AlienWolf728 wrote...
As Gaider said in another thread, asking "I wish to announce myself as an atheist" quickly develops into "I want to go on a crusade against all religion".

As Gaider rather badly misunderstood in the other thread. I don't need to go on a crusade against all religion; neither the Creators nor the Stone have done anything bad to me, only the Maker.

So basicly you want to go on a crusade? <_<

And why not? It's okay when the Chantry does it.

Are you an organization of authority hundreds of thousands strong?

And who exactly says it's OK for them to do so?

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I'll make the counter-argument that the mages make better villains, because on the face of it they should be sympathetic. The fact that their revolution could easily devour not only its own children, but also the world, would make them a far more interesting antagonistic force of true believers.

It wouldn't be handled well enough to avoid pissing off a far larger group of people, I can guarantee that. Ultimately it'd prove a grievous error.

You're making the mistake here of confusing 'my opinion' and the fanbase.

You've always been outside the norm of the spectrum, Xil. Don't paper over that now.

[Plaintiff]

Filament wrote...

I'd be willing to bet the final outcome re: mages and templars is a small step toward more freedom or bringing down an iron fist. That or there's an event that makes everyone mages, and then the would-be oppressors of course change their tune now that it would affect them.

Some people seem to think these are outcomes to dread but I really wouldn't have a problem with it.

"Everyone becomes magic" is an ending I could get behind. I'd be very interested to know how such a  development would impact the series going forward.

[Xilizhra]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I'll make the counter-argument that the mages make better villains, because on the face of it they should be sympathetic. The fact that their revolution could easily devour not only its own children, but also the world, would make them a far more interesting antagonistic force of true believers.

It wouldn't be handled well enough to avoid pissing off a far larger group of people, I can guarantee that. Ultimately it'd prove a grievous error.

You're making the mistake here of confusing 'my opinion' and the fanbase.

You've always been outside the norm of the spectrum, Xil. Don't paper over that now.

Truth be told, I only said that because it was a semi-objective reason to not go that direction. My personal objections would be full of rather more subjective frothing rage.

[Plaintiff]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

AlienWolf728 wrote...
As Gaider said in another thread, asking "I wish to announce myself as an atheist" quickly develops into "I want to go on a crusade against all religion".

As Gaider rather badly misunderstood in the other thread. I don't need to go on a crusade against all religion; neither the Creators nor the Stone have done anything bad to me, only the Maker.

So basicly you want to go on a crusade? <_<

And why not? It's okay when the Chantry does it.

Are you an organization of authority hundreds of thousands strong?

And who exactly says it's OK for them to do so?

I was specifically addressing past posts by that user, which indicate that he generally approves of the Chantry's actions, even when they're very violent, or he believes that their actions are excusable for some reason.

Essentially, I was implying that his statement here is hypocritical, as he defends Chantry actions that many would consider deplorable, but when Xilizhra expresses a desire to flip the tables and commit similar atrocities on the organization that has committed them in the past, that's not okay.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 30 septembre 2012 - 06:17 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I'll make the counter-argument that the mages make better villains, because on the face of it they should be sympathetic. The fact that their revolution could easily devour not only its own children, but also the world, would make them a far more interesting antagonistic force of true believers.

It wouldn't be handled well enough to avoid pissing off a far larger group of people, I can guarantee that. Ultimately it'd prove a grievous error.

You're making the mistake here of confusing 'my opinion' and the fanbase.

You've always been outside the norm of the spectrum, Xil. Don't paper over that now.

Truth be told, I only said that because it was a semi-objective reason to not go that direction. My personal objections would be full of rather more subjective frothing rage.

Stick to that. We're all qualified to our own opinions. Objective analysis on population demographics? Not a chance.

[ElitePinecone]

Xilizhra wrote...
I don't see why this conflict couldn't have been the main focus, if it turns out to not be.

Well, it probably could've been - if they wanted to make a straight-up political game again, with overtones of safety versus liberty and all that jazz. 

But clearly, the series is moving in a different direction - maybe it always has been - and now the Templar/mage conflict is only one of several that is being exploited by another force for their own nefarious purposes. 

It's actually a neat plot tool - now we get to explore a bunch of other lore in Thedas (Orlais, possibly Tevinter, whatever this mysterious Big Bad is, questing in caves for sekrits) *and* there's the politics of the Chantry, mages, Templars and Seekers to boot. A one-note 40-hour story isn't a very interesting pitch for a series that's meant to showcase a continent, now we get Orlesian politics, the Free Marches, ancient lore and maybe Ferelden thrown into the bargain as well. 

As for the Templars being villains, I still think it's nonsensical and oversimplified - inexplicably evil human antagonists are both cliched and boring. Flawed ideologues with seemingly-good intentions (hello Loghain, Saren, Revan) are far more interesting. The advantage of having some outside, mysterious force from beyond The Fade being the villain is that it makes everything easier - the leaders of various factions can be appropriately human in their nuances (no caricatures of evil), while still being subtly manipulated by a true force of chaos. 

[Zkyire]

Xilizhra wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I'll make the counter-argument that the mages make better villains, because on the face of it they should be sympathetic. The fact that their revolution could easily devour not only its own children, but also the world, would make them a far more interesting antagonistic force of true believers.

It wouldn't be handled well enough to avoid pissing off a far larger group of people, I can guarantee that. Ultimately it'd prove a grievous error.

More people support the Mages than the Templars?

Population of the BSN, as we have been told time and again by devs is but a drop in the bucket, and not representitive of the whole. It's why we have a lot of interest here asking for species selection, when in the larger fanbase, only a small percentage actually used non humans.

[Xilizhra]

Stick to that. We're all qualified to our own opinions. Objective analysis on population demographics? Not a chance.

Then here's the difference between our opinions that I see.

I assume that most people who call themselves pro-templar are in favor of the Chantry being in power but of being relatively moderate in its control. So far as I can tell, that is not the position of the Templar Order in Asunder, as it's gone highly radical in splitting from the Chantry. One could easily side with the Chantry to bring the templars back to heel, then use them to subjugate the mages again. Hence, someone pro-Chantry control could still be theoretically satisfied in their game, while someone against that could wipe out the templars and keep the Chantry crippled.

More people support the Mages than the Templars?

Either they won't care or they'll side with the easier option, i.e. the oppressed rebels.

As for the Templars being villains, I still think it's nonsensical and
oversimplified - inexplicably evil human antagonists are both cliched
and boring. Flawed ideologues with seemingly-good intentions (hello
Loghain, Saren, Revan) are far more interesting. The advantage of having
some outside, mysterious force from beyond The Fade being the villain
is that it makes everything easier - the leaders of various factions can
be appropriately human in their nuances (no caricatures of evil), while
still being subtly manipulated by a true force of chaos.

No level of human evil is inexplicable. Plenty of people IRL are far worse than DAO's human antagonists.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 30 septembre 2012 - 06:38 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Stick to that. We're all qualified to our own opinions. Objective analysis on population demographics? Not a chance.

Then here's the difference between our opinions that I see.

I assume that most people who call themselves pro-templar are in favor of the Chantry being in power but of being relatively moderate in its control. So far as I can tell, that is not the position of the Templar Order in Asunder, as it's gone highly radical in splitting from the Chantry. One could easily side with the Chantry to bring the templars back to heel, then use them to subjugate the mages again. Hence, someone pro-Chantry control could still be theoretically satisfied in their game, while someone against that could wipe out the templars and keep the Chantry crippled.

Can you provide numbers for the groups, Xil?

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I'll make the counter-argument that the mages make better villains, because on the face of it they should be sympathetic. The fact that their revolution could easily devour not only its own children, but also the world, would make them a far more interesting antagonistic force of true believers.

It wouldn't be handled well enough to avoid pissing off a far larger group of people, I can guarantee that. Ultimately it'd prove a grievous error.

But if it were handled well "mages as villains" would make for a far more complex, engaging, and I daresay relevant story. 

Modifié par General User, 30 septembre 2012 - 06:43 .

[Augustei]

Xilizhra wrote...
I assume that most people who call themselves pro-templar are in favor of the Chantry being in power but of being relatively moderate in its control. So far as I can tell, that is not the position of the Templar Order in Asunder, as it's gone highly radical in splitting from the Chantry. One could easily side with the Chantry to bring the templars back to heel, then use them to subjugate the mages again. Hence, someone pro-Chantry control could still be theoretically satisfied in their game, while someone against that could wipe out the templars and keep the Chantry crippled.

I'd rather overthrow the divine and replace her with someone more in line with my own views. Nearly all thedas believes in the chantry and most likely believes the divine is the voice of the maker on earth as most did and some still do for the pope. Crushing the chantry is goldon oppotunity wasted when you could just put a divine in place that will convince the thedas monarchs of your points of view.

[Augustei]

Reading through the forums with people discussing the chantry, the circles etc. i've come to the conclusion that either people don't understand the meaning of the word evil or its meaning completely changed when i wasn't looking

[joshko]

Xilizhra wrote...

ElitePinecone wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

What I'm worried about is the idea that all of the wars will be shown to be wrong, with the "right" outcome defeating said mysterious force and introducing compromises everywhere.

I suppose that's a question of the protagonist's priorities - in Origins we were a Warden, and the focus is on ending the Blight. As the Inquisitor, despite any hypothetical possible background choices, the focus seems to be very clearly on finding out who/what the Big Bad is, and ending its threat. The Inquisitor can't just drop everything to crusade against the Chantry for 40 hours (even assuming there was enough unique content), because our role is to investigate and destroy a larger threat.

It's where the sovereignty of the player to roleplay intersects with the authority of the developers to *make* the player character do certain things. Shepard couldn't resign from the Alliance and dance away their life in shady bars because the story necessitated that we be at the very least focused on the mission. 

I'd tend to think compromises won't necessarily be forced on the player, but at some point the overarching plot has to supercede the smaller ones in terms of how much time and attention the game gives it - if only because that's the way the developers planned it. Solving the mage-templar conflict might not be the focus of the game - and I hope we get a variety of options and outcomes as to how we solve it - but I'd think at the very least it'll be there as a major part of it.

The right outcome is very obviously defeating the mysterious force threatening Thedas, because that's what the protagonist's mission is and what the game *only* allows it to be. I doubt it'll lead to mandatory outcomes for the other plots, but we'll have to wait and see.

This would be so much easier if the templars were the main villains... I still contend it'd have fit the plot and offered reasonable chances to support the Chantry. I don't see why this conflict couldn't have been the main focus, if it turns out to not be.

I would rather see them both presented as short sighted idealists and fanatics who are so obsessed with their current "problems" that they fail to see the consequences of their actions down the line. Which will of course be negative and very destructive.

I see no need for "good guys" and "bad guys", or for "oppressors" and "oppressed". It's too simple and boring put that way.

[Xilizhra]

General User wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I'll make the counter-argument that the mages make better villains, because on the face of it they should be sympathetic. The fact that their revolution could easily devour not only its own children, but also the world, would make them a far more interesting antagonistic force of true believers.

It wouldn't be handled well enough to avoid pissing off a far larger group of people, I can guarantee that. Ultimately it'd prove a grievous error.

But if it were handled well "mages as villains" would make for a far more complex, engaging, and I daresay relevant story. 

No... no, it really wouldn't. Nothing about it would be of inherently more quality.

[Nomen Mendax]

addiction21 wrote...

I would like to keep the real world baggage out of this fantasy world thank you very much.

Nomen Mendax wrote...

Macross wrote...

Apples and Oranges mate. ...

No they don't.

<photo snipped by Nomen  - go back and look at it if you are that interested>
What now? Sure you will prolly just say its photoshop or something

Ok, you win!

[Lotion Soronarr]

Xilizhra wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Xilizhra, your suggestions are horrible and I hope to god no one from BioWare ever listens to you.. ever.. EVER.

You want the Templars/Chantry to get the Cerberus treatment, which is pretty much the worst idea in the history of mankind.

You heard it here first, folks: Templars losing is the worst idea ever created. I'm honored, really, although I'm pretty sure they already got the Cerberus treatment in Asunder. Given the whole "villains of the book, with the only sympathetic templar defecting from the Order" thing.

And if that's the route BioWare is going to take than the only thing they will get from me is my scorn.
Hey, they made the ME3 ending. I'm sure that if DA3 has the same ending, thatis good thing. They've done it before after all, right?

It's not about Templars beign defeated, it's about the depiction. Cerberus went from greysh to retarded, moustache-twirling evil. That is simply bad writing. And now you want the same thing to happen to templars, because you hate them.
You don't care how it affects the setting as a whole or how bad of a writing it is - the only thing you care about is getting your jollies and pushing your own petty agenda.

That's what I call your ideas horrible - because you constantly keep reinforcing that notion with your every post.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Xilizhra wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I'll make the counter-argument that the mages make better villains, because on the face of it they should be sympathetic. The fact that their revolution could easily devour not only its own children, but also the world, would make them a far more interesting antagonistic force of true believers.

It wouldn't be handled well enough to avoid pissing off a far larger group of people, I can guarantee that. Ultimately it'd prove a grievous error.

Which you only say becuse you support mages.

Honestly, you have such a one-tracked mind it's stupifying.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Plaintiff wrote...

Filament wrote...

I'd be willing to bet the final outcome re: mages and templars is a small step toward more freedom or bringing down an iron fist. That or there's an event that makes everyone mages, and then the would-be oppressors of course change their tune now that it would affect them.

Some people seem to think these are outcomes to dread but I really wouldn't have a problem with it.

"Everyone becomes magic" is an ending I could get behind. I'd be very interested to know how such a  development would impact the series going forward.

That's horrrible. Basicly a copy of ME3 ending. Hell no. HELL NO.

If they go that route BioWare is dead for me forever.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Xilizhra wrote...

General User wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I'll make the counter-argument that the mages make better villains, because on the face of it they should be sympathetic. The fact that their revolution could easily devour not only its own children, but also the world, would make them a far more interesting antagonistic force of true believers.

It wouldn't be handled well enough to avoid pissing off a far larger group of people, I can guarantee that. Ultimately it'd prove a grievous error.

But if it were handled well "mages as villains" would make for a far more complex, engaging, and I daresay relevant story. 

No... no, it really wouldn't. Nothing about it would be of inherently more quality.

Looks like you can't handle the truth Xil.

Funny how you keep claiming that templals being evil would be a great story (without beign able to explain why other than you like it) and when someone counters why mages being evil would be better (while making a far better case than you) you imediately dimiss them....

[congealeddgtllvr]

I think the mages being the villains would be interesting and unexpected. I would prefer this to just another story about overthrowing oppressive authority. That can be a good story too but I feel like I've seen it plenty of times.

[Dave of Canada]

Mages should be the Cerberus of DA3, they were all possessed by evil spirits from beyond and the Chantry is the only sensible group which strives against them as we praise the Maker together with priests and Templar.

Mages are the only true evil in the world of Thedas, consorting with demons (reapers) and using mind control just like Cerberus. Who cares about the other evils in the world, mages should take the spotlight.

I'd like to reach the end where you fight an abomination-Fiona, driven insane by her good intentions to free the mages. It'll lead to a final confrontation where she makes you kill your mentor using blood magic before killing herself, allowing us to make our ending choice and making everyone happy as the true evil of mages is stopped.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 30 septembre 2012 - 10:04 .