390 réponses à ce sujet

[Big I]

I'd be more interested in an examination of how Andrastians twist the tenets and facts of their religion in order to fit existing bias, perhaps in a comparison with the real world Crusades. For instance, the establishment of the Dales as an independent elven homeland is essentially a commandmant from the central figure of their religion, but that didn't stop them from wiping it out.


One of the things that interested me most about origins was the Gauntlet and the Guardian. Unlike the Chantry which was established long after Andraste's death Haven (prior to the dragon cult) and the Guardian in particular represent an unparalelled authority on Andrastianism. I know it's unlikely to happen but I always thought it'd be fascinating to contrast modern Andrastianism with another form of the same faith, one that has an unbroken line from the beginning.


I really hope that one day some devout Andrastian is going to have to reconcile the fact that the spirits of Maferath, Shartan and Archon Hessarian guard the Urn with the Canticles of Shartan, Maferath and Hessarian being stricken from the Chant. Or that the Divine claims to speak with the authority of Andraste while her last disciple, the Guardian, still lives.

[StElmo]

nightscrawl wrote...

StElmo wrote...

I guess the questions is, should good being done be still called good if being done in the name of something bad?

If the mafia donates to a childrens hospital, does that make the mafia a better thing?

This assumes that the institution as a whole is bad

[edit]
See this post for more elaboration.

Opression of mages is a sign that it is bad etc.

[Purge the heathens]

I'm not all that pious myself, but I'd prefer if the game told an entertaining and enthralling story rather than try to shove some political message down my throat.

[Aldandil]

It should also take a stance against dictatorship. Show King Alistair as an evil maniac just to prove a point. Lets impose all our modern values on a medieval themed world.

[nightscrawl]

StElmo wrote...

Opression of mages is a sign that it is bad etc.

I have nothing more to say on the subject. I disagree.

My canon play is as a mage.

Purge the heathens wrote...

I'm not all that pious myself, but I'd prefer if the game told an entertaining and enthralling story rather than try to shove some political message down my throat.

Do you support the inclusion of same-sex romances in the games? If so, why is that? Some people might say that is "shoving a political message" down their throats.

Star Trek (original series) was famous for similar things because Gene Roddenberry had a progressive outlook. There were references to racism throughout the show, and showing how humanity had moved beyond it was presented as the goal to strive for.

For many in the US, Canada is considered a liberal country. I think Bioware is very much putting out a political message when they include the same-sex romances. It's a message I happen to agree with, just as I agreed with the messages on racism in Star Trek. I think this because they made a conscious decision to be inclusive, and have stuck to that decision despite the hew and cry, rending of garments, and gnashing of teeth by some players.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 29 septembre 2012 - 02:01 .

[King Cousland]

StElmo wrote...

nightscrawl wrote...

StElmo wrote...

I guess the questions is, should good being done be still called good if being done in the name of something bad?

If the mafia donates to a childrens hospital, does that make the mafia a better thing?

This assumes that the institution as a whole is bad

[edit]
See this post for more elaboration.

Opression of mages is a sign that it is bad etc.

Then I suggest you make a critique of the Qunari who, unlike the Chantry, allow mages no freedoms whatsoever and forcibly mutilate them upon signs of magical talent. 

[CELL55]

  Uhh, this again. "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." 
You do know that this is just your opinion, and not fact? And that not everyone wants the game to stop dead in its tracks so that the writers can go on a rant about something highly controversial that was only tangentially related to the main plot? The game does not need to go on an Author Filibuster about real-world institutions that they don't like because this is a fantasy game. For having fun. I really don't see why people keep trying to drag their real world prejudices into a game about elves and magic.

If you think that the Chantry is evil, that's great. But not everyone thinks that way, and it most certainly does not need to be an avatar for any real world institutions, just so that you can yell at them in a make believe world.

[Xilizhra]

Then I suggest you make a critique of the Qunari who, unlike the Chantry, allow mages no freedoms whatsoever and forcibly mutilate them upon signs of magical talent.

Actually, the qunari do allow some mages to join the Ben-Hassrath and gain considerably more freedom. You're right otherwise, but both deserve critique.

[nightscrawl]

King Cousland wrote...

Then I suggest you make a critique of the Qunari who, unlike the Chantry, allow mages no freedoms whatsoever and forcibly mutilate them upon signs of magical talent.

Just helping out here, because it took me a minute. Here he is referencing the saarebas' horns being cut off.

[Big I]

nightscrawl wrote...

King Cousland wrote...
Then I suggest you make a critique of the Qunari who, unlike the Chantry, allow mages no freedoms whatsoever and forcibly mutilate them upon signs of magical talent.

Just helping out here, because it took me a minute. Here he is referencing the saarebas' horns being cut off.

Also the fact that there mouths are sewn shut and/or tongues cut out. It's why the rogue Saarebas in DA2 couldn't speak til the end of the quest.

[CELL55]

Wulfram wrote...

The chantry should be shown as an organisation made up of people of diverse outlook and morality.

I like this human, he understands!


Also, one should note that the Circles were not all about oppression. The Chantry wanted to make sure that mages would be a lot less likely to be wandering the world and forming a gateway for hungry demons to invade Thedas. A problematic situation, demons, as I'm sure we can all agree. Kirkwall certainly shows us the worst of the mage oppression in Thedas, but as the novel Asunder notes, some mages were actually FOR the Chantry. They liked the education, the free room and board, the meals, the better living conditions then most peasants, being among their own kind, and being protected from ignorant torch-wielding peasants and demons. It's not all black and white, and we should not be so quick to denounce the entire system as evil.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

StElmo wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

StElmo wrote...
I hope DA3:"Insquisition" thematically critiques institutionalized religion.

Or thematically critiques scientific bull**** Abiogenesis who claim man was created from
 soap ( or was is bubble? ) or space magic's "The big bang".

? Sorry?

Thedas religion is as nonsense as scientific's abiogenesis and The Big Bang theory to be comparative with any real life
institutionalized religion
.

Therefore the critiques for institutionalized religion should be divert to the critiques on how to make Thedas religions more believable worth to be called a religion.

Because I find DA religious concept is amusing at best. Too vague and flaw I wonder how on earth anyone could buy into such belief system. 

[Xilizhra]

CELL55 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

The chantry should be shown as an organisation made up of people of diverse outlook and morality.

I like this human, he understands!


Also, one should note that the Circles were not all about oppression. The Chantry wanted to make sure that mages would be a lot less likely to be wandering the world and forming a gateway for hungry demons to invade Thedas. A problematic situation, demons, as I'm sure we can all agree. Kirkwall certainly shows us the worst of the mage oppression in Thedas, but as the novel Asunder notes, some mages were actually FOR the Chantry. They liked the education, the free room and board, the meals, the better living conditions then most peasants, being among their own kind, and being protected from ignorant torch-wielding peasants and demons. It's not all black and white, and we should not be so quick to denounce the entire system as evil.

The system as a whole is evil. There are good components, but it's far easier for something evil to be partially made from good than it is for something good to be partially made from evil. Some might say the latter is completely impossible.

[Lithuasil]

CELL55 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

The chantry should be shown as an organisation made up of people of diverse outlook and morality.

I like this human, he understands!


Also, one should note that the Circles were not all about oppression. The Chantry wanted to make sure that mages would be a lot less likely to be wandering the world and forming a gateway for hungry demons to invade Thedas. A problematic situation, demons, as I'm sure we can all agree. Kirkwall certainly shows us the worst of the mage oppression in Thedas, but as the novel Asunder notes, some mages were actually FOR the Chantry. They liked the education, the free room and board, the meals, the better living conditions then most peasants, being among their own kind, and being protected from ignorant torch-wielding peasants and demons. It's not all black and white, and we should not be so quick to denounce the entire system as evil.

This here is important - I've tried to make that point quite a few times now - for a significant number of mages (basically everyone that isn't from nobility or a filthy rich family (Anders is by the way), the circles are a significant improvement of their safety, living conditions and even freedoms.

[Xilizhra]

Lithuasil wrote...

CELL55 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

The chantry should be shown as an organisation made up of people of diverse outlook and morality.

I like this human, he understands!


Also, one should note that the Circles were not all about oppression. The Chantry wanted to make sure that mages would be a lot less likely to be wandering the world and forming a gateway for hungry demons to invade Thedas. A problematic situation, demons, as I'm sure we can all agree. Kirkwall certainly shows us the worst of the mage oppression in Thedas, but as the novel Asunder notes, some mages were actually FOR the Chantry. They liked the education, the free room and board, the meals, the better living conditions then most peasants, being among their own kind, and being protected from ignorant torch-wielding peasants and demons. It's not all black and white, and we should not be so quick to denounce the entire system as evil.

This here is important - I've tried to make that point quite a few times now - for a significant number of mages (basically everyone that isn't from nobility or a filthy rich family (Anders is by the way), the circles are a significant improvement of their safety, living conditions and even freedoms.

Hah. Maybe for Orlesians, but I doubt anyone else is living under the threat of sanctioned mindrape/ordinary rape and/or other various forms of abuse at any time, and even Orlesians are probably not stuck in a single building with no privacy and a constant litany of religious verbal abuse being thrown at them.

[Withidread]

Why do so many people feel there must be a political/religous/whatever statement? Why can't we just have a game that's fun to play?

[Masha Potato]

God no

[rager79]

I enjoy the chantry/mage line. Having to make the choice between supporting Meridith or the Mages was difficult for me, because I could see the pros/cons of both sides.

Although it is interested, I prefer this being one of many story lines, not the main one.

Would the events in DAO at Redcliffe be different if Connor had gone to the circle? Could involvement of templars have prevented the slaughter that followed?

On the other hand, corrupt templars make me want to scream at the chantry.

I think the key message coming across in the DA series is that it is not religion that corrupts, nor is it magic. Corruption has been shown more as a result of POWER and those that seek to abuse it, regardless of if they are mages or chantry.

DA2 had a great balance of showing the evil/good sides of both mages and chantry. Neither is all good, nor are they all bad. Tevinter Magisters vs Anders vs Merrill vs Bethany. Sister Petrice vs the Grand Cleric vs Sebastian vs Cullen vs Meridith.

I was impressed with the character development of Cullen from DA1 to DA2. If only that had done a good a job with poor Zevran.

[nightscrawl]

Lithuasil wrote...

This here is important - I've tried to make that point quite a few times now - for a significant number of mages (basically everyone that isn't from nobility or a filthy rich family (Anders is by the way), the circles are a significant improvement of their safety, living conditions and even freedoms.

Source please.

rager79 wrote...

Would the events in DAO at Redcliffe be different if Connor had gone to the circle? Could involvement of templars have prevented the slaughter that followed?

If Connor had been sent to the Circle when his magic was discovered, several things would have happened:

1) Jowan might never have been brought to justice/redeemed/set free (depending on choice) because he wouldn't have been hired to tutor Connor, and also would not have been present to poison the Arl.

2) Arl Eamon would have died - Loghain would probably have used some other method of poison delivery, and he would have died because Connor would not have been there to make a "deal" (however such can be considered since it was with a child) with the demon, thus preventing his death from said poison.

3) The entire attack on Redcliffe by the animated corpses would have never happened.

4) Andraste's Ashes would not have been found.

5) >> Huge speculation incoming - With Eamon's death, Ferelden, and the rest of Thedas by proxy, might have been totally screwed without a unifying force in the Landsmeet. Teagan might have been able to do the same, but he isn't presented with nearly as much clout as Eamon has, so we can't know for sure.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 29 septembre 2012 - 02:34 .

[King Cousland]

Xilizhra wrote...

Then I suggest you make a critique of the Qunari who, unlike the Chantry, allow mages no freedoms whatsoever and forcibly mutilate them upon signs of magical talent.

Actually, the qunari do allow some mages to join the Ben-Hassrath and gain considerably more freedom. You're right otherwise, but both deserve critique.

I suppose this could make sense, but could you link me a source please? 

[Big I]

Lithuasil wrote...
This here is important - I've tried to make that point quite a few times now - for a significant number of mages (basically everyone that isn't from nobility or a filthy rich family (Anders is by the way), the circles are a significant improvement of their safety, living conditions and even freedoms.

Firstly, the Circle predates the Chantry. The codex entry Tevinter: The Magisters shows this. The only thing the Chantry did was make the Circle subservient to civil authority and isolate them. Secondly, the high standard of living Circles enjoy is supported by their own sale of magical goods and services. It's not Chantry charity that lets them learn to read, it's a result of their own efforts. Thirdly, unless I'm mistaken all we know about Anders' background prior to the Circle is that he's from the Anderfels, hence the nickname.

[Lithuasil]

Xilizhra wrote...

Hah. Maybe for Orlesians, but I doubt anyone else is living under the threat of sanctioned mindrape/ordinary rape and/or other various forms of abuse at any time, and even Orlesians are probably not stuck in a single building with no privacy and a constant litany of religious verbal abuse being thrown at them.

There's Darkspawn creeping up from the deep roads, there's angered dailish, there's qunari raiders and all manner of other beast, and there's slightly more bandits and plunderers in Thedas then there is in present day somalia. Plus, in case of international hostilities, the circles are neutral - villages and hamlets on the other hand would be put to the torch.

And honestly - what we've seen, is single/double rooms and occasionally larger sleeping areas  for novice mages. How do you think the average ten-to-twelve head peasant family in their single-room hamlet is living? Proper beds alone are a luxury to most people.

The circles by and large are opressive, only if you judge them by a modern western perspective, or through the eyes of the top five percent of thedas population.

As for Anders being from a privileged family - we see him talking to Varric at one point, about the farewell-gift from his mother, a hand-embroided silk pillow. Embroiding cloth, especially pillows, is a past time for those who need not work and have the resources to afford the components (not to mention embroidery serves no practical purpose). In other words, it's a past time for rich ladies. So we can assume that his mother was either priviledged, or a professional seamstress stealing from her workplace.

Modifié par Lithuasil, 29 septembre 2012 - 02:31 .

[SergeantCilantro]

"militant"

also,

Nyoka wrote...

Let it be an interesting interlocutor instead of just an indulgent yes-man.

^important.

Modifié par SergeantCilantro, 29 septembre 2012 - 02:29 .