390 réponses à ce sujet

[Dhiro]

The Chantry has its good sides and its bad sides, as we've seen both in DA: O and DA II. Not to say that the bad parts shouldn't be criticized, but I hope they don't just forget all the good the Chantry does. I like how grey the Chantry can be, focusing only on its bad side or its good side isn't really interesting, in my opinion.

[Xilizhra]

Lithuasil wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Hah. Maybe for Orlesians, but I doubt anyone else is living under the threat of sanctioned mindrape/ordinary rape and/or other various forms of abuse at any time, and even Orlesians are probably not stuck in a single building with no privacy and a constant litany of religious verbal abuse being thrown at them.

There's Darkspawn creeping up from the deep roads, there's angered dailish, there's qunari raiders and all manner of other beast, and there's slightly more bandits and plunderers in Thedas then there is in present day somalia. Plus, in case of international hostilities, the circles are neutral - villages and hamlets on the other hand would be put to the torch.

And honestly - what we've seen, is single/double rooms and occasionally larger sleeping areas  for novice mages. How do you think the average ten-to-twelve head peasant family in their single-room hamlet is living? Proper beds alone are a luxury to most people.

The circles by and large are opressive, only if you judge them by a modern western perspective, or through the eyes of the top five percent of thedas population.

Darkspawn attacks are relatively rare (and Blights threaten the Circles too), Dalish don't generally attack towns, qunari are only an issue in the north and mostly for Tevinter, "other beasts" is too nonspecific to be useful, and I think the banditry is exaggerated; road bandits aren't all that common in DAO, and DA2 has a protagonist who goes looking for trouble within one city. Also, the mages are under constant threat of an occupying enemy army anyway, so I don't think this "neutrality" helps much.

Oh, I'm sure sleeping accomodations so very much make up for that which I mentioned before.

And, of course, the Circles are also oppressive judged from the perspective of the mages themselves. And those of the ordinary population who sympathize with them, which seems to be a fair few.

[CELL55]

nightscrawl wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

This here is important - I've tried to make that point quite a few times now - for a significant number of mages (basically everyone that isn't from nobility or a filthy rich family (Anders is by the way), the circles are a significant improvement of their safety, living conditions and even freedoms.

Source please.

Well in DAO you can see the Circle for yourself, and I think Asunder mentions it at some point as well. Granted the Circle has been taken over by demons, but I think that just goes to show how necessary an institution like the Circles are.

[Lithuasil]

Xilizhra wrote...

And, of course, the Circles are also oppressive judged from the perspective of the mages themselves. And those of the ordinary population who sympathize with them, which seems to be a fair few.

In Kirkwall. Which is by far the most oppressive circle we know of. I'm not saying the circles are perfect by any stretch - but if I was presented the choice, I'd much rather endure having to keep my head down and avoid the one or two nutjobs that preach to me, then having to work on the fields twelve hours a day, to just so avoid starvation, and watching two of my siblings freeze to death each winter.

[ElitePinecone]

Nyoka wrote...

Allow the game to challenge your views on things a little, OP. Let it be an interesting interlocutor instead of just an indulgent yes-man.

Yes, this. The writers are talented enough to explore a bunch of perspectives - I wasn't convinced by the Arishok's proselytising on the wonders of the Qun, but it made for some excellent conversations. 

[Xilizhra]

Lithuasil wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

And, of course, the Circles are also oppressive judged from the perspective of the mages themselves. And those of the ordinary population who sympathize with them, which seems to be a fair few.

In Kirkwall. Which is by far the most oppressive circle we know of. I'm not saying the circles are perfect by any stretch - but if I was presented the choice, I'd much rather endure having to keep my head down and avoid the one or two nutjobs that preach to me, then having to work on the fields twelve hours a day, to just so avoid starvation, and watching two of my siblings freeze to death each winter.

And in Orlais. And in enough of the rest of the world for the majority of mages to secede from the Chantry. Also, you don't live in Thedas and lack the perspective to accurately infer your assertion.

[nightscrawl]

CELL55 wrote...

nightscrawl wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

This here is important - I've tried to make that point quite a few times now - for a significant number of mages (basically everyone that isn't from nobility or a filthy rich family (Anders is by the way), the circles are a significant improvement of their safety, living conditions and even freedoms.

Source please.

Well in DAO you can see the Circle for yourself, and I think Asunder mentions it at some point as well. Granted the Circle has been taken over by demons, but I think that just goes to show how necessary an institution like the Circles are.

I was referring to the underlined part about Anders, which suggests to me that Anders was from "a filthy rich family."

Xilizhra wrote...

Also, you don't live in Thedas and lack the perspective to accurately infer your assertion.

Devil's Advocate here. You can say that about anything. "You aren't really a mage," "You really aren't tainted by the darkspawn," "Your parents weren't murdered in a night attack by a fellow noble," and on and on.

You either have to allow that people can role play within the context of their game and their character, thus giving them a frame of reference, or you should talk about real life instead. People look at the game different ways, and one of those ways includes empathizing with their character. So in a sense, they do live in Thedas.

To the above, the most personal connection I have with Thedas is that I feel a sense of patriotism toward Ferelden. I feel that I did so much for that country, combined with reading the first two novels, that it seems like my country. I hope we go there again some day =/.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 29 septembre 2012 - 02:54 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Lithuasil wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

And, of course, the Circles are also oppressive judged from the perspective of the mages themselves. And those of the ordinary population who sympathize with them, which seems to be a fair few.

In Kirkwall. Which is by far the most oppressive circle we know of. I'm not saying the circles are perfect by any stretch - but if I was presented the choice, I'd much rather endure having to keep my head down and avoid the one or two nutjobs that preach to me, then having to work on the fields twelve hours a day, to just so avoid starvation, and watching two of my siblings freeze to death each winter.

At least you would be "free" while watching your siblings die....

[Dhiro]

CELL55 wrote...

nightscrawl wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

This here is important - I've tried to make that point quite a few times now - for a significant number of mages (basically everyone that isn't from nobility or a filthy rich family (Anders is by the way), the circles are a significant improvement of their safety, living conditions and even freedoms.

Source please.

Well in DAO you can see the Circle for yourself, and I think Asunder mentions it at some point as well. Granted the Circle has been taken over by demons, but I think that just goes to show how necessary an institution like the Circles are.

I believe that the "source please." is for the "Anders is from a filthy rich family" bit. I also wasn't aware of that, what did I miss?

Edit: Ninja'd, but I'd still like to know!

Modifié par Dhiro, 29 septembre 2012 - 02:40 .

[Lithuasil]

Dhiro wrote...

I believe that the "source please." is for the "Anders is from a filthy rich family" bit. I also wasn't aware of that, what did I miss?

Edit: Ninja'd, but I'd still like to know!

I edited that in, and the thread went to a new page <.<

Lithuasil wrote...

As for Anders being from a privileged family - we see him talking to Varric at one point, about the farewell-gift from his mother, a hand-embroided silk pillow. Embroiding cloth, especially pillows, is a past time for those who need not work and have the resources to afford the components (not to mention embroidery serves no practical purpose). In other words, it's a past time for rich ladies. So we can assume that his mother was either priviledged, or a professional seamstress stealing from her workplace.

[andar91]

I want religious organizations in the DA world to be portrayed as realistic to what they are: religious organizations. Heck, just organizations. There's good and bad, and this complexity is what makes things interesting. I don't think Bioware really wants to critique religion, per se, because this isn't the place for it; furthermore, doing so would suggest that they have some sort of agenda above just producing an entertaining game that makes money.

People are people, and people are flawed. Groups of people are also flawed. So far, I think Bioware has done a good job of portraying this. Maybe they can improve on it, maybe not, but launching some crusade (or Inquisition lol) against organized religion is not necessary to show how such organizations can be described as grey areas.

[Masha Potato]

Lithuasil wrote...

As for Anders being from a privileged family - we see him talking to Varric at one point, about the farewell-gift from his mother, a hand-embroided silk pillow. Embroiding cloth, especially pillows, is a past time for those who need not work and have the resources to afford the components (not to mention embroidery serves no practical purpose). In other words, it's a past time for rich ladies. So we can assume that his mother was either priviledged, or a professional seamstress stealing from her workplace.

that's quite a stretch

Modifié par Masha Potato, 29 septembre 2012 - 02:43 .

[Dhiro]

Masha Potato wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

As for Anders being from a privileged family - we see him talking to Varric at one point, about the farewell-gift from his mother, a hand-embroided silk pillow. Embroiding cloth, especially pillows, is a past time for those who need not work and have the resources to afford the components (not to mention embroidery serves no practical purpose). In other words, it's a past time for rich ladies. So we can assume that his mother was either priviledged, or a professional seamstress stealing from her workplace.

that's quite a stretch

Hmm, I agree. But then, silk seems like an expensive material, so even if his mother didn't made it herself she could have had the money to buy it. It may not make him filthy rich, but I suppose it wouldn't make his family poor either?

[nightscrawl]

Lithuasil wrote...

I edited that in, and the thread went to a new page <.<

Lithuasil wrote...

As for Anders being from a privileged family - we see him talking to Varric at one point, about the farewell-gift from his mother, a hand-embroided silk pillow. Embroiding cloth, especially pillows, is a past time for those who need not work and have the resources to afford the components (not to mention embroidery serves no practical purpose). In other words, it's a past time for rich ladies. So we can assume that his mother was either priviledged, or a professional seamstress stealing from her workplace.

Thanks for the response.

I think that's a lot to assume from just a pillow, since there is no accompanying dialogue referring to any of that. There is just as much reason to assume Anders is from a poor family from his vehement rant about the templars searching "your rat spit village" and taking you away.


[edit]
It's always interesting to see how people read something different from the same game. I'm frequently surprised by this in various forum posts.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 29 septembre 2012 - 02:51 .

[Masha Potato]

It could be a family heirloom and the only thing of worth they had?

I don't know, it could be any number of things. Maybe he lied about it being his mother's and embroidered it for varric himself

[Lithuasil]

I actually don't remember the dialogue word-for-word, but with nothing else to go on, I have to interpret what I have, and I strongly recall Anders specifically mentioning she embroided it herself. Of course it might have just been an oversight on the part of whoever wrote that particular dialogue, but taking it at face value, we have to assume she was atleast raised wealthy or in nobility.

[LobselVith8]

King Cousland wrote...

Here we go again. This militant atheism on the forums is tiresome.

Are you referring to the other thread that was created a few days ago, where it was suggested that the protagonist should be allowed to be atheist? Because I don't see anything militant about that; some of us dislike the Chantry of Andraste specifically, and see no reason to force our protagonist to be religiously Andrastian when The Warden could voice an atheist viewpoint in both Origins and Awakening. Hawke was religiously Andrastian, and the player had no control over that; some of us think it's wrong to remove the freedoms we had in Origins.

[MichaelStuart]

As long as I can ignore it, I don't really care how the Chantry is portrayed.
Good, Bad, it all tastes the same when its being shoved down your throat.

Just for the record, I believe the Chantry is to corrupt and should be stripped of all its power.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

King Cousland wrote...

Here we go again. This militant atheism on the forums is tiresome.

Are you referring to the other thread that was created a few days ago, where it was suggested that the protagonist should be allowed to be atheist? Because I don't see anything militant about that; some of us dislike the Chantry of Andraste specifically, and see no reason to force our protagonist to be religiously Andrastian when The Warden could voice an atheist viewpoint in both Origins and Awakening. Hawke was religiously Andrastian, and the player had no control over that; some of us think it's wrong to remove the freedoms we had in Origins.

It is probably more likely he is referring the few unsavory persons on this forum, who have made it their life-mission, to inform (and insult) people of a religious view, that they are wrong.

[LobselVith8]

Lithuasil wrote...

And honestly - what we've seen, is single/double rooms and occasionally larger sleeping areas  for novice mages. How do you think the average ten-to-twelve head peasant family in their single-room hamlet is living? Proper beds alone are a luxury to most people.

We know mages rebelled across the continent because many of them chose freedom over subjugation under a religious organization that gave templars "dominion over mages by divine right."

Lithuasil wrote...

The circles by and large are opressive, only if you judge them by a modern western perspective, or through the eyes of the top five percent of thedas population.

This is inaccurate, as the mage protagonist can say the Circle is "an oppressive place." Fiona also thought her life as an Orlesian sex slave was better than living in the Circle.

Lithuasil wrote...

As for Anders being from a privileged family - we see him talking to Varric at one point, about the farewell-gift from his mother, a hand-embroided silk pillow. Embroiding cloth, especially pillows, is a past time for those who need not work and have the resources to afford the components (not to mention embroidery serves no practical purpose). In other words, it's a past time for rich ladies. So we can assume that his mother was either priviledged, or a professional seamstress stealing from her workplace.

We know Anders is from the Anderfels. We don't really know anything about his family.

[King Cousland]

LobselVith8 wrote...

King Cousland wrote...

Here we go again. This militant atheism on the forums is tiresome.

Are you referring to the other thread that was created a few days ago, where it was suggested that the protagonist should be allowed to be atheist? Because I don't see anything militant about that; some of us dislike the Chantry of Andraste specifically, and see no reason to force our protagonist to be religiously Andrastian when The Warden could voice an atheist viewpoint in both Origins and Awakening. Hawke was religiously Andrastian, and the player had no control over that; some of us think it's wrong to remove the freedoms we had in Origins.

I see nothing wrong with playing an atheist from a roleplaying perspective, what I dislike is when certain forumites persist with their belief that every game should make a political point about how religion is eviland should be destroyed due to their real world prejudices. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

The circles by and large are opressive, only if you judge them by a modern western perspective, or through the eyes of the top five percent of thedas population.

This is inaccurate, as the mage protagonist can say the Circle is "an oppressive place." Fiona also thought her life as an Orlesian sex slave was better than living in the Circle. 

Oh, and because these two said it it MUST be right, right? Wrong.

[King Cousland]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

The circles by and large are opressive, only if you judge them by a modern western perspective, or through the eyes of the top five percent of thedas population.

This is inaccurate, as the mage protagonist can say the Circle is "an oppressive place." Fiona also thought her life as an Orlesian sex slave was better than living in the Circle. 

Oh, and because these two said it it MUST be right, right? Wrong.

Exactly. The mage protagonist's personality and views are shaped by the player, meaning that they can think of the Circle as a comfortable home or a prison. The fact that Fiona goes on to lead the mages in their rebellion hardly classes her as an impartial source.

[nightscrawl]

LobselVith8 wrote...

This is inaccurate, as the mage protagonist can say the Circle is "an oppressive place." Fiona also thought her life as an Orlesian sex slave was better than living in the Circle.

You can also choose to say "The Circle is my home," as well as show other positive emotions toward the Circle. As a child coming to the Circle for the first time, Wynne felt like she "was coming home."

Everyone will have a different view based on their personal experience. This applies to NPCs as well as players and their characters.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Are you referring to the other thread that was created a few days ago, where it was suggested that the protagonist should be allowed to be atheist? Because I don't see anything militant about that; some of us dislike the Chantry of Andraste specifically, and see no reason to force our protagonist to be religiously Andrastian when The Warden could voice an atheist viewpoint in both Origins and Awakening. Hawke was religiously Andrastian, and the player had no control over that; some of us think it's wrong to remove the freedoms we had in Origins.

It is probably more likely he is referring the few unsavory persons on this forum, who have made it their life-mission, to inform (and insult) people of a religious view, that they are wrong.

Then I agree. There's no reason or need to insult people for having different religious views. It's even more nonsensical to do this in a discussion about a fictional religion in a fantasy world.