390 réponses à ce sujet

[General User]

LobselVith8 wrote...

General User wrote...

Think of it this way: virtually every time a 'mage protagonist' has an opportunity to rant and rail about the Circles, that same protagonist also has an opportunity to say something positive about the Circles.  Any given charatcers opinions are only evidence of what that characters opinions are, nothing less and nothing more.

The divide between the Libertarians and the Loyalists addresses this as well; essentially, the entire Fraternity of the Enchanters expresses that not all mages are the same in their views.

General User wrote...

Consider also that the player character in the games, has motivations, viewpoints, and perspectives that are uniquely divorced from the narrative and setting itself because they come from the actual player sitting on the other side of the screen.  Making much of the player character's expressed opinions, to no small degree, worthless.

If The Warden saying that the Circle is "an oppressive place" is supposed to be worthless, why does Wynne retort that The Warden can change that it's an oppressive place if he returns to the Circle as a leader? If the dialogue options reflect actual attitudes about the society, the people, and the institutions, it makes no sense to say the dialogue from The Warden is worthless.

The Warden's (and Hawke's) opinions are worthless when it comes to determining or judging other aspects of the narrative.  Largely because they change from person to person and game to game.

In other words, if in one playthru of Origins, the player character says that "the Circle is good" and in another play thru the player character says "the Circle is bad" those opinions have exactly the same bearing on the nature of the Circle itself, which is to say, virtually nil.

Modifié par General User, 29 septembre 2012 - 08:52 .

[robertm2]

it would be nice but i doubt it will happen. ea does not want to offend a potential customer even if that means the game losses something that would be a cool story point.

[Dave of Canada]

People should really learn to leave their religious grievances at the door when playing a game, almost everyone who I've seen create threads like these seem borderline psycopathic in their hatred for real-world religion.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 29 septembre 2012 - 08:38 .

[dragonflight288]

I don't mind some critiquing of the Chantry, as it is a flawed organization. I can talk about how, since it was founded a century after Andraste's death by an Orlesian warlord who wanted to legitimize his claim to conquer everyone else, that some of its teachings should be taken with a grain of salt.

But I also want to see good, decent folk who follow the Chant of Light to the best of their ability, are not prideful and power-hungry clerics or what have you, and their only goal is simply to help people. People do that in real life as well.

In the end, it's a fantasy world and a fictional religion. I can have my characters adhere to it (like my Cousland) or go out of their way to nitpick it like crazy and seek to disprove it (like my Amell play through.) In the end, they both were two characters I made up who both fought exceptionally hard to end the Blight. One wielded magic, mastered the school of Spirit, and wielded large battleaxes in combat as an Arcane Warrior, and the other was a sword and shield champion of justice. While my dwarven noble just shook his head at them.

[upsettingshorts]

Dave of Canada wrote...

People should really learn to leave their religious grievances at the door when playing a game, almost everyone who I've seen create threads like these seem borderline psycopathic in their hatred for real-world religion.

I'd modify this to say "when talking about fiction" but pretty much that.

It was like this in the Battlestar Galactica fandom too. 

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 29 septembre 2012 - 09:10 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Why 'organized religion' rather than 'organized politics'?

Religion has no more unique sinister qualities than any of the many other secular ideologies that have been used to motivate people to acts of good and evil.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 29 septembre 2012 - 09:37 .

[TheImmortalBeaver]

Quick Disclaimer: Yeah, I'm a Christian.

I don't mind anti-religious themes in games, as long as it's fair and shows both sides of the issue. The church has done some terrible things. It's also done some really great things. Guess what? Atheists have done some pretty great and pretty terrible things too. BioWare so far has largely allowed you to take your own stance on religion and beliefs in their games, which I think is pretty great.

So, uh, why does DA3 need to contradict, mock and otherwise belittle my religion to be a better game?

{Hint: It doesn't.}

[Shadow Fox]

...Christ it's threads like this that make me hate BSN.

[The Hierophant]

I wouldn't be surprised if the op approved of Order 66.

[LobselVith8]

General User wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

General User wrote...

Think of it this way: virtually every time a 'mage protagonist' has an opportunity to rant and rail about the Circles, that same protagonist also has an opportunity to say something positive about the Circles.  Any given charatcers opinions are only evidence of what that characters opinions are, nothing less and nothing more.

The divide between the Libertarians and the Loyalists addresses this as well; essentially, the entire Fraternity of the Enchanters expresses that not all mages are the same in their views.

General User wrote...

Consider also that the player character in the games, has motivations, viewpoints, and perspectives that are uniquely divorced from the narrative and setting itself because they come from the actual player sitting on the other side of the screen.  Making much of the player character's expressed opinions, to no small degree, worthless.

If The Warden saying that the Circle is "an oppressive place" is supposed to be worthless, why does Wynne retort that The Warden can change that it's an oppressive place if he returns to the Circle as a leader? If the dialogue options reflect actual attitudes about the society, the people, and the institutions, it makes no sense to say the dialogue from The Warden is worthless.

The Warden's (and Hawke's) opinions are worthless when it comes to determining or judging other aspects of the narrative.  Largely because they change from person to person and game to game.

In other words, if in one playthru of Origins, the player character says that "the Circle is good" and in another play thru the player character says "the Circle is bad" those opinions have exactly the same bearing on the nature of the Circle itself, which is to say, virtually nil.

It's just an opinion from a denizen of Thedas. What's great about Dragon Sge is how we have differing points of view; it's great. It'll be less of a story if there was simply one point of view.

[GodWood]

StElmo wrote...
One thing that has impressed me greatly and kept me in the DA game is the portrayal of the Chantry as apower hungry, dominant and manipulative force, in the DA universe.

It draws heavy parallels with the historical and modern day context of the Catholic Church in real world society - which I find absolutely fascinating.

Barely.

The Chantry is quite tame in comparison to the Catholic Church.

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...
No, I get enough religion bashing from Assassin's Creed and the internet.

"Assassin's Creed is made by team of people of a variety of faiths and beliefs" - The bit at the start of every Assassin's Creed.

[Mr Fixit]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

People should really learn to leave their religious grievances at the door when playing a game, almost everyone who I've seen create threads like these seem borderline psycopathic in their hatred for real-world religion.

I'd modify this to say "when talking about fiction" but pretty much that.

Yeah. There always seem to be some who can't really discern the difference between reality and fiction. If a major character is religious, guess what, it's the damn showrunners/devs/author trying to impose their religious beliefs down our throats. Another guy is a hardcore atheist? Well, obviously godless are trying to indoctrinate us with their marxist ideas.

It goes way beyond religion or even some other touchy subjects with contemporary relevance. The need for speechifying is a strong one, especially in the blessed anonymity of the net. Some are turning such innocuous subjects as retreat mechanic into soapboxes about glory, honour, and duty.

I personally believe that the loudest are usually the most shielded ones where real-world experience on the subject matter is concerned. As an example, I come from a rather multiethnic country. It's my observation that those with the least contact with other ethnicities are generally the loudest in their "opinions".

Modifié par Mr Fixit, 29 septembre 2012 - 10:33 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

GodWood wrote...

StElmo wrote...
One thing that has impressed me greatly and kept me in the DA game is the portrayal of the Chantry as apower hungry, dominant and manipulative force, in the DA universe.

It draws heavy parallels with the historical and modern day context of the Catholic Church in real world society - which I find absolutely fascinating.

Barely.

The Chantry is quite tame in comparison to the Catholic Church.

Heh.. a very common misconception these days.
The faults of the Catholic Church are maginfied a thousandfold and peddled as the truth.

[Mr Fixit]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

GodWood wrote...

StElmo wrote...
One thing that has impressed me greatly and kept me in the DA game is the portrayal of the Chantry as apower hungry, dominant and manipulative force, in the DA universe.

It draws heavy parallels with the historical and modern day context of the Catholic Church in real world society - which I find absolutely fascinating.

Barely.

The Chantry is quite tame in comparison to the Catholic Church.

Heh.. a very common misconception these days.
The faults of the Catholic Church are maginfied a thousandfold and peddled as the truth.

Best not to go there really unless we want to fire a torpedo down the exhaust port of this thread.

[Zkyire]

Mr Fixit wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

GodWood wrote...

StElmo wrote...
One thing that has impressed me greatly and kept me in the DA game is the portrayal of the Chantry as apower hungry, dominant and manipulative force, in the DA universe.

It draws heavy parallels with the historical and modern day context of the Catholic Church in real world society - which I find absolutely fascinating.

Barely.

The Chantry is quite tame in comparison to the Catholic Church.

Heh.. a very common misconception these days.
The faults of the Catholic Church are maginfied a thousandfold and peddled as the truth.

Best not to go there really unless we want to fire a torpedo down the exhaust port of this thread.

Is that sort of thing frowned upon in the Chantry?

[Mr Fixit]

Zkyire wrote...

Is that sort of thing frowned upon in the Chantry?

Would you be OK if a torpedo ended down your exhaust port? Nah, don't answer that.

Modifié par Mr Fixit, 29 septembre 2012 - 11:10 .

[Pelle6666]

Hehey! Good luck with that! Don't think they dare to stepp on any toes on that front even if BioWare have had a history of using religious behavior as a face of confusion, chaos and evil in earlier titles. It has never been very pronounced though. I would love to have dialog options that let me define where my protagonist stands in this matter anyway, like when you could the priest in DA:O that you didn't believe in the maker or ME1 when you can tell Ashley that you don't believe in God. That would be nice, there's nothing as refreshing as a theological debate!

[BouncyFrag]

Pelle6666 wrote...

Hehey! Good luck with that! Don't think they dare to stepp on any toes on that front even if BioWare have had a history of using religious behavior as a face of confusion, chaos and evil in earlier titles. It has never been very pronounced though. I would love to have dialog options that let me define where my protagonist stands in this matter anyway, like when you could the priest in DA:O that you didn't believe in the maker or ME1 when you can tell Ashley that you don't believe in God. That would be nice, there's nothing as refreshing as a theological debate!

Well, with all the sex threads and this, we're sure to have all our bases covered here in the BSN and there will eventually be a consensus, I can just feel it. 

[slimgrin]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Why 'organized religion' rather than 'organized politics'?

Religion has no more unique sinister qualities than any of the many other secular ideologies that have been used to motivate people to acts of good and evil.

Please...

[garrusfan1]

I want them not to go insane with it. I really would prefer they make the individual people look bad

[garrusfan1]

Actually I hope they give options not to go against a religion but against some of the people in it that use it for personal gain

[Volus Warlord]

How is this pisshole still open..