390 réponses à ce sujet

[CELL55]

Lithuasil wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

It wasn't in DAO. I hardly see why it'd be harder here.

Because a position so far outside of societies norms requires a reason, especially in medieval times when "far out there" positions are much harder to uphold or form in the first place.
So yeah - having a character abandon the faith they were brought up with, after a series of traumatic events or in times of crisis should be an option. Starting out as a character decked out with modern, western beliefs should not.

This. I know some people like to play as themselves in RPGs (Hell, I do it myself, more often then not), but some things one is required to 'buy into' just in order to play the game. If you play as an elf, racism and discrimination will be a part of your experience. If you play as a dwarf, the castes will have an impact on your character. If you play as an Orlesian, the nobility will be a topic of concern for any class. If you are playing in the European Medieval Setting-inspired world of Dragon Age, your character will be a part of some religious experience by default. 

Which is not to say that these things should not be subject to change, on the contrary I think that the videogame character will come across so many different experiences and encounters that just about any characterization is possible for them in the end. But they have to start somewhere.

[Xilizhra]

CELL55 wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

It wasn't in DAO. I hardly see why it'd be harder here.

Because a position so far outside of societies norms requires a reason, especially in medieval times when "far out there" positions are much harder to uphold or form in the first place.
So yeah - having a character abandon the faith they were brought up with, after a series of traumatic events or in times of crisis should be an option. Starting out as a character decked out with modern, western beliefs should not.

This. I know some people like to play as themselves in RPGs (Hell, I do it myself, more often then not), but some things one is required to 'buy into' just in order to play the game. If you play as an elf, racism and discrimination will be a part of your experience. If you play as a dwarf, the castes will have an impact on your character. If you play as an Orlesian, the nobility will be a topic of concern for any class. If you are playing in the European Medieval Setting-inspired world of Dragon Age, your character will be a part of some religious experience by default. 

Which is not to say that these things should not be subject to change, on the contrary I think that the videogame character will come across so many different experiences and encounters that just about any characterization is possible for them in the end. But they have to start somewhere.

There's a difference between dictating what your experiences are imposed from the outside, which is reasonable, and dictating what your character must be, which is less so. It's entirely possible to play a dwarf who hates and/or disregards the caste system, for instance, just as it's possible to play someone who doesn't believe in the Maker; both in DAO. There's already precedent.

[brettc893]

How did you not think all of this was gonna happen when you posted OP?

Or maybe that's why you didi it, in which caseJESUS WAS BLACK, RONALD REGAN WAS THE DEVIL, AND THE GOVERNMENT IS LYING ABOUT 9/11.

*Sits back

Modifié par brettc893, 30 septembre 2012 - 04:32 .

[Lithuasil]

Xilizhra wrote...

If there are different racial options and I start as a Dalish, it won't be hard at all. If we have to live in an Andrastian society... well, I'm sure not all mages completely pick up on it; it's definitely an option not to in DAO, even without an explicit explanation. Maybe you could bring up a past crisis if it comes up in conversation, but having one happen in-game shouldn't be necessary.

If you are from a different society, your beliefs will be different, that much is a given - but as a circle mage, who's been preached to their entire life... I'm not sure actually. Roleplaying through the upbringing of such a character FO3 style could be immensely interesting. In fact the inner conflict of how to deal with the religious guilt you're trained to feel as a mage, could be extremely interesting in general, and has hardly been touched upon, as far as player characters go - so why would you want to discard that role-playing opportunity, purely to hold onto your real world beliefs in a fictional setting?

[Xilizhra]

Lithuasil wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

If there are different racial options and I start as a Dalish, it won't be hard at all. If we have to live in an Andrastian society... well, I'm sure not all mages completely pick up on it; it's definitely an option not to in DAO, even without an explicit explanation. Maybe you could bring up a past crisis if it comes up in conversation, but having one happen in-game shouldn't be necessary.

If you are from a different society, your beliefs will be different, that much is a given - but as a circle mage, who's been preached to their entire life... I'm not sure actually. Roleplaying through the upbringing of such a character FO3 style could be immensely interesting. In fact the inner conflict of how to deal with the religious guilt you're trained to feel as a mage, could be extremely interesting in general, and has hardly been touched upon, as far as player characters go - so why would you want to discard that role-playing opportunity, purely to hold onto your real world beliefs in a fictional setting?

Quite frankly, I don't have faith in Bioware to go that in-depth into any individual character story if there are multiple ones. To do something like that, you'd have to start out as a Circle mage no matter what to give the backstory enough detail, and even then it'd be dicey. It's better, I think, to just go for headcanon possibilities and giving the chance to deny belief in the Maker specifically.

[KiwiQuiche]

Erik Lehnsherr wrote...

Also faith =/= religion.

No Kidding. 

Some people don't understand that concept, as apparent in this thread. <_<

[AndrahilAdrian]

I support this idea wholeheartedly. A mature critique of religion is something we haven't seen in gaming yet, and DA, with its dysfunctional, hypocritical, manipulative, holier-than-thou chantry is perfectly positioned to rectify this. I imagine it will be an important theme, considering how the chantry has been portrayed so far and the important role it is bound to play. Unless the writers make the chantry significantly more sympathetic, it's going to happen because the chantry is really horrible and, not coincidentally, really similar to real religious organizations, perticularly the catholic church. Expanding on this portrayal and creating more parallels between the flaws of the chantry and those of real religion would make for an interesting, intellectually stimulating video game. And no, I don't think that's necissarily an oxymoron.

Modifié par AndrahilAdrian, 30 septembre 2012 - 04:42 .

[Lithuasil]

Xilizhra wrote...

Quite frankly, I don't have faith in Bioware to go that in-depth into any individual character story if there are multiple ones. To do something like that, you'd have to start out as a Circle mage no matter what to give the backstory enough detail, and even then it'd be dicey. It's better, I think, to just go for headcanon possibilities and giving the chance to deny belief in the Maker specifically.

To lack that faith is fair enough (pun most definitely intended) - But there's limitless issues with the headcannon - if an event was so traumatic that it made you abandon something that's such a critical part of everyday life, how come it's never brought up for example?
And honestly - what's so bad about roleplaying within the boundaries you're given by the game?

[Xilizhra]

Lithuasil wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Quite frankly, I don't have faith in Bioware to go that in-depth into any individual character story if there are multiple ones. To do something like that, you'd have to start out as a Circle mage no matter what to give the backstory enough detail, and even then it'd be dicey. It's better, I think, to just go for headcanon possibilities and giving the chance to deny belief in the Maker specifically.

To lack that faith is fair enough (pun most definitely intended) - But there's limitless issues with the headcannon - if an event was so traumatic that it made you abandon something that's such a critical part of everyday life, how come it's never brought up for example?
And honestly - what's so bad about roleplaying within the boundaries you're given by the game?

Most concretely, it'd be shrinking the rather wide boundaries given by DAO. And mages are the closest thing Thedas has to scientists; immersed in the nature of the hidden world and constantly needing to think logically about it, it seems they have one of the easiest careers in which to slip away from faith. Of course, there are plenty of religious mages, as there are religious scientists; probably more religious mages, really. But the possibility of leaving faith in the Circle seems quite real and present.

[iSignIn]

Lithuasil wrote...

Because a position so far outside of societies norms requires a reason, especially in medieval times when "far out there" positions are much harder to uphold or form in the first place.

Like many other Medieval Fantasies, in order to appeal more to a modern audience, characters in DA are full of modern sentiments which would be out of place in Medieval Europe.

For example, despite what Gaider will say, half of the companions in DA2 (Aveline, Isabela, Varric, Fenris) are plain irreligious; while the other half consists of heathens (Merrill, Tallis), one who endeavor to break down the Chantry metaphorically and physically (Anders), and one true believer in the Andrastian religion who is DLC (Sebastian). 

Modifié par iSignIn, 30 septembre 2012 - 04:58 .

[Lithuasil]

Xilizhra wrote...

Most concretely, it'd be shrinking the rather wide boundaries given by DAO. And mages are the closest thing Thedas has to scientists; immersed in the nature of the hidden world and constantly needing to think logically about it, it seems they have one of the easiest careers in which to slip away from faith. Of course, there are plenty of religious mages, as there are religious scientists; probably more religious mages, really. But the possibility of leaving faith in the Circle seems quite real and present.

Mages are also one of those groups that are most exposed to the faith (what with the circles being a chantry thing). They can also verify some of the things the chantry tells them (the threat of demons for example) first hand. That's the thing really - in a setting where functional magic is all over the place and large parts of the messianic figures' exploits can be verified, a position of atheism or denial is incredibly unlikely. Not being a devout practioner of faith... maybe, but calling BS on the whole thing, and being outspoken about it? I don't really see that happening, honestly.

[Vandicus]

iSignIn wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

Because a position so far outside of societies norms requires a reason, especially in medieval times when "far out there" positions are much harder to uphold or form in the first place.

Like many other Medieval Fantasies, in order to appeal more to a modern audience, characters in DA are full of modern sentiments which would be out of place in Medieval Europe.

For example, despite what Gaider will say, half of the companions in DA2 (Aveline, Isabela, Varric, Fenris) are plain irreligious; while the other half consists of heathens (Merrill, Tallis), one who endeavor to break down the Chantry metaphorically and physically (Anders), and one true believer in the Andrastian religion who is DLC (Sebastian). So Thedas isn't like Medieval Europe at all in regard to religion.

So irreligious people(I take it to mean that you're saying not particularly devout rather than lacking belief in the Maker or the Stone, cause those characters are established as believing in those accordingly), pagans(people with different non-dominant religions), and people who believe in the deity but not the doctrine and how its practiced. Yeah Medieval Europe never had people like that.

[Xilizhra]

Lithuasil wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Most concretely, it'd be shrinking the rather wide boundaries given by DAO. And mages are the closest thing Thedas has to scientists; immersed in the nature of the hidden world and constantly needing to think logically about it, it seems they have one of the easiest careers in which to slip away from faith. Of course, there are plenty of religious mages, as there are religious scientists; probably more religious mages, really. But the possibility of leaving faith in the Circle seems quite real and present.

Mages are also one of those groups that are most exposed to the faith (what with the circles being a chantry thing). They can also verify some of the things the chantry tells them (the threat of demons for example) first hand. That's the thing really - in a setting where functional magic is all over the place and large parts of the messianic figures' exploits can be verified, a position of atheism or denial is incredibly unlikely. Not being a devout practioner of faith... maybe, but calling BS on the whole thing, and being outspoken about it? I don't really see that happening, honestly.

They can verify some things, but also disprove some things and know for certain the existence of uncertainty. And personally, I'd find atheism to be more believable in a world where any sort of miraculous phenomenon can easily be explained by some variety of unknown magic as opposed to divine intervention. The messianic figures' exploits are even easier to explain by calling them mages. Whether or not one would be outspoken about it in the Circle is one thing, but I have no trouble believing that someone would call BS on it, especially with the inducement of the religion supposedly hating you for existing.

[iSignIn]

Lithuasil wrote...

Mages are also one of those groups that are most exposed to the faith (what with the circles being a chantry thing). They can also verify some of the things the chantry tells them (the threat of demons for example) first hand. That's the thing really - in a setting where functional magic is all over the place and large parts of the messianic figures' exploits can be verified, a position of atheism or denial is incredibly unlikely. Not being a devout practioner of faith... maybe, but calling BS on the whole thing, and being outspoken about it? I don't really see that happening, honestly.

It happened with Anders.

Modifié par iSignIn, 30 septembre 2012 - 05:06 .

[Lithuasil]

iSignIn wrote...

It happened with Anders.

Anders is anti-chantry. He expresses that he believes in the maker, just not in what the chantry says about him - which is a reasonable stance, through his eyes, and a far, far stretch from the usual atheist "the maker doesn't exist and everyone who says so smells".

[iSignIn]

Lithuasil wrote...

iSignIn wrote...

It happened with Anders.

Anders is anti-chantry. He expresses that he believes in the maker, just not in what the chantry says about him - which is a reasonable stance, through his eyes, and a far, far stretch from the usual atheist "the maker doesn't exist and everyone who says so smells".

Well, the Christians, Jews, and Muslim all believe in the God of Abraham. And yet they see sufficient reasons to kill each other in the millions in the name of that God.

Edit: Well actually Anders is more like a Hussite, in the line of Jan Zizka. 

Modifié par iSignIn, 30 septembre 2012 - 05:14 .

[Xilizhra]

Lithuasil wrote...

iSignIn wrote...

It happened with Anders.

Anders is anti-chantry. He expresses that he believes in the maker, just not in what the chantry says about him - which is a reasonable stance, through his eyes, and a far, far stretch from the usual atheist "the maker doesn't exist and everyone who says so smells".

Rest assured I only want to say the former of those two things. Also, my previous post.

[Lithuasil]

iSignIn wrote...

Well, the Christians, Jews, and Muslim all believe in the God of Abraham. And yet they see sufficient reasons to kill each other in the millions in the name of that God.

I honestly have no Idea what point you're trying to raise here o:

Xilizhra wrote...

They can verify some things, but also disprove some things and know for certain the existence of uncertainty. And personally, I'd find atheism to be more believable in a world where any sort of miraculous phenomenon can easily be explained by some variety of unknown magic as opposed to divine intervention. The messianic figures' exploits are even easier to explain by calling them mages. Whether or not one would be outspoken about it in the Circle is one thing, but I have no trouble believing that someone would call BS on it, especially with the inducement of the religion supposedly hating you for existing.

And what else would a mage powerful enough to perform all those miraculous feats be, if not a god? Where would Andraste have gotten her powers from, if not from the maker? Remember - every harrowed mage has been to the fade atleast once, and you can see the black city from any point in the fade.
The two strongest arguments real-world atheism relies on, are an understanding of scientific observations, and a distinct lack of hints that things trancending the plane that science can perceive exist - where Thedas is lacking such scientific understanding, but has proof that a plane transcending the natural exists (and can be visited).

So just what line of thinking would bring a thedosian to saying not "I don't believe the maker hates mages" or "the maker is an ****" but "the maker does not exist and never has". Where would that position come from?

[Vandicus]

iSignIn wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

iSignIn wrote...

It happened with Anders.

Anders is anti-chantry. He expresses that he believes in the maker, just not in what the chantry says about him - which is a reasonable stance, through his eyes, and a far, far stretch from the usual atheist "the maker doesn't exist and everyone who says so smells".

Well, the Christians, Jews, and Muslim all believe in the God of Abraham. And yet they see sufficient reasons to kill each other in the millions in the name of that God.

Edit: Well actually Anders is more like a Hussite, in the line of Jan Zizka. 

Generalization again. This is a lot like accusing people of being anti-Jewish because they're German. Furthermore the "for religious reasons" kill count is pretty paltry compared to the kill counts of all the other reasons people find to kill each other.

Hell generalizing the actions of a few to the entire population is probably one of the most common "reasons" that people kill one another. That's irony for you.

[KiwiQuiche]

The passive agressiveness is getting kinda overwhelming here.

[Xilizhra]

And what else would a mage powerful enough to perform all those miraculous feats be, if not a god? Where would Andraste have gotten her powers from, if not from the maker? Remember - every harrowed mage has been to the fade atleast once, and you can see the black city from any point in the fade.
The two strongest arguments real-world atheism relies on, are an understanding of scientific observations, and a distinct lack of hints that things trancending the plane that science can perceive exist - where Thedas is lacking such scientific understanding, but has proof that a plane transcending the natural exists (and can be visited).

So just what line of thinking would bring a thedosian to saying not "I don't believe the maker hates mages" or "the maker is an ****" but "the maker does not exist and never has". Where would that position come from?

The... Fade? It seems to choose mages of its own accord, or at least provides magical bloodlines. And the belief that the Maker never existed could come from the fact that the spirits have no evidence or knowledge of the Maker, and that humans are relying on hearsay and propaganda from a tyrannical religious institution that doesn't respect history enough to not wipe politically inconvenient material out of the Chant.

[Lithuasil]

Xilizhra wrote...

The... Fade? It seems to choose mages of its own accord, or at least provides magical bloodlines. And the belief that the Maker never existed could come from the fact that the spirits have no evidence or knowledge of the Maker, and that humans are relying on hearsay and propaganda from a tyrannical religious institution that doesn't respect history enough to not wipe politically inconvenient material out of the Chant.

So your mages judgement of the dominant religion they were raised would be based on communing with demons that you're not supposed to commune with and that are notorious for saying anything to weaken or confuse you, and on an incredibly one-sided interpretation of events, based on information you have little chance of obtaining? That doesn't exactly strike me as convincing.

[Xilizhra]

Even benevolent spirits have no knowledge of the Maker, and a one-sided interpretation strikes me as making sense when you only ever see the worst side of the Chantry. This is just one possible explanation, mind; I'm sure there are other possibilities.

[Lithuasil]

Xilizhra wrote...

Even benevolent spirits have no knowledge of the Maker.

It's debateable if such a thing even exist, let alone if it's a reliable source. To question requires an incentive. In the real world, we have that because there's contradictions between scientific observations and religious text. In Thedas, there's not (to my knowledge anyway). 

[StElmo]

brettc893 wrote...

How did you not think all of this was gonna happen when you posted OP?

Or maybe that's why you didi it, in which caseJESUS WAS BLACK, RONALD REGAN WAS THE DEVIL, AND THE GOVERNMENT IS LYING ABOUT 9/11.

*Sits back

To be fair, jesus (if he existed) was black, well, he was arab skinned, whatever you call that