14 réponses à ce sujet

[Gabey5]

 Was Loghain's withdrawl from Ostagar really explained officially by the writers? I don't remember getting a straught  answer out of him if he is recruited. The darkspawn were defeated in many battles and this last one was thought be no different. He advises Calian not to be on the front lines, wise yes, buit Cailan refuses and his forces hold there own pretty well. So he could have swooped in and saved Cailan and ended the battle then and there but chose not to. As an aside it is ironic that in the books Rowan disobeys her father to save Loghain when he thought he was done for and now see him repay her with fleeing from her son. His plan is working well even though the tower was over run the wardens manage to light the beacon in time.


So why did he flee? Did he feel Cailan could not end the blight even though they were winning? Or was some kind of PTSD where he saw Orleasians under every rock and thought Cailan too young to handle the next invasion in his mind?

[HiroVoid]

He felt it would either cost too many men, it would have been too late, or the darkspawn would have killed them all.

In early drafts, he learned how Cailan was going to leave Anora to marry empress Celene which would have been his motivation for leaving him, but that was cut, so you're left with the top explanation.

Modifié par HiroVoid, 29 septembre 2012 - 06:39 .

[Hanako Ikezawa]

HiroVoid wrote...

He felt it would either cost too many men, it would have been too late, or the darkspawn would have killed them all.

In early drafts, he learned how Cailan was going to leave Anora to marry empress Celene which would have been his motivation for leaving him, but that was cut, so you're left with the top explanation.

I like how they put it back in Return To Ostagar though.

[WhiteKnyght]

After reading The Stolen Throne and the Calling, I have to wonder about two things.

1. How Loghain could stomach how he handled Cailan. Leaving him behind as a pragmatic decision is one thing, but he puts Cailan down like he hates him all of the time. Considering it's the son of his best friend and the woman he loved. . . never mind, I just answered my own question. Cailan represents what Loghain couldn't have with Rowan. Though as much as she loved Cailan, I don't think she's looking down too favorably on him.

2. Why Loghain talks to highly of Maric in Origins. In both novels, he treats Maric like he is an idiot(he even calls him an idiot). Yet in Origins, he talks like Maric was the wisest and greatest man he ever knew.

[Gabey5]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

After reading The Stolen Throne and the Calling, I have to wonder about two things.

1. How Loghain could stomach how he handled Cailan. Leaving him behind as a pragmatic decision is one thing, but he puts Cailan down like he hates him all of the time. Considering it's the son of his best friend and the woman he loved. . . never mind, I just answered my own question. Cailan represents what Loghain couldn't have with Rowan. Though as much as she loved Cailan, I don't think she's looking down too favorably on him.

2. Why Loghain talks to highly of Maric in Origins. In both novels, he treats Maric like he is an idiot(he even calls him an idiot). Yet in Origins, he talks like Maric was the wisest and greatest man he ever knew.

#1 Killing Cailan is very out of character for Logain i agree. For himself, his love for Rowan and Maric, and his daughter. He is also a pragmatist who fears the day Orlais will return, starting a civil war during a blight is very counterproductive to that. 

For #2 i thought of it more as there inside thing. Like Allistair and Morrigan insult each other left and right but enjoy each others company but would never admit it out loud.

[sylvanaerie]

Gabey5 wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

After reading The Stolen Throne and the Calling, I have to wonder about two things.

1. How Loghain could stomach how he handled Cailan. Leaving him behind as a pragmatic decision is one thing, but he puts Cailan down like he hates him all of the time. Considering it's the son of his best friend and the woman he loved. . . never mind, I just answered my own question. Cailan represents what Loghain couldn't have with Rowan. Though as much as she loved Cailan, I don't think she's looking down too favorably on him.

2. Why Loghain talks to highly of Maric in Origins. In both novels, he treats Maric like he is an idiot(he even calls him an idiot). Yet in Origins, he talks like Maric was the wisest and greatest man he ever knew.

#1 Killing Cailan is very out of character for Logain i agree. For himself, his love for Rowan and Maric, and his daughter. He is also a pragmatist who fears the day Orlais will return, starting a civil war during a blight is very counterproductive to that. 

For #2 i thought of it more as there inside thing. Like Allistair and Morrigan insult each other left and right but enjoy each others company but would never admit it out loud.

Also, Maric has been dead for some years before the Blight.  It's been years for Loghain to come to terms with the complexity of his feelings for Rowan, Maric and their son.  Often the passage of time tends to gild memories of things gone irretrievably, or people lost.  You remember the good qualities, and either explain away, forget or gloss over the bad qualities.  He may be a pragmatist, but he's also a person of strong opinions as well.  He could be remembering the Maric who existed in his own mind, as his best friend and king, and forget that Maric was a flawed human being.  

I'm not expressing it well, I'm not saying he's delusional, but he seems to have built up Maric to this standard that Cailan can never live up to, even if he'd been the perfect man/king--which, sadly, he is far from.

It makes me wonder about life prior to the Blight, and how he may have felt or even talked about him (Cailan) before.  You can love someone greatly and still have no respect for them. 

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 29 septembre 2012 - 07:34 .

[Direwolf0294]

It's something that's always bugged me. Maybe it's dealt with at some point in the game and I just missed it. Maybe it's mentioned in on of the books or comics and I haven't read it. From my current perspective though, Loghains motivation makes no sense. I've had to come to the conclusion that he's simply a huge jerk.

[Gabey5]

Direwolf0294 wrote...

It's something that's always bugged me. Maybe it's dealt with at some point in the game and I just missed it. Maybe it's mentioned in on of the books or comics and I haven't read it. From my current perspective though, Loghains motivation makes no sense. I've had to come to the conclusion that he's simply a huge jerk.

it is not answered in any books or in the game. We never gety a straight answer. He does not even seem to be enjoying it at all in his scenes at denerim. He looks like he has a major headache all the time and just lets Howe do most of the ruling

Modifié par Gabey5, 29 septembre 2012 - 08:50 .

[DarkKnightHolmes]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

After reading The Stolen Throne and the Calling, I have to wonder about two things.

1. How Loghain could stomach how he handled Cailan. Leaving him behind as a pragmatic decision is one thing, but he puts Cailan down like he hates him all of the time. Considering it's the son of his best friend and the woman he loved. . . never mind, I just answered my own question. Cailan represents what Loghain couldn't have with Rowan. Though as much as she loved Cailan, I don't think she's looking down too favorably on him.

2. Why Loghain talks to highly of Maric in Origins. In both novels, he treats Maric like he is an idiot(he even calls him an idiot). Yet in Origins, he talks like Maric was the wisest and greatest man he ever knew.

Because Maric got angry at Loghain in Stolen Throne when Loghain and Rowan saved Maric and let everyone else die by the Chevaliers and Maric then told Loghain never to do that again and Loghain bitterly replied that if Maric was ever in a death situation, he wouldn't show up again. Well it's kinda went like that.

[Bullets McDeath]

It was clear that with Loghain, they wanted a complex villian with a certain amount of mixed emotions/conflict about what he was doing, the kind of guy who becomes a villian not out of some personal darkness or love of evil, but because he thinks he is saving everyone... but I feel like they botched it. His motivations are never really clear, it sounds like they weren't even clear to the writing team either, and consquently are only ever vaguely acknowledged because they fall apart upon scrutiny. Ultimately, what Loghain did makes no sense, either for his character, or what he states to want to achieve.

I don't see what this thread has to do with DA3, though...

Modifié par outlaworacle, 29 septembre 2012 - 09:04 .

[KENNY4753]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

After reading The Stolen Throne and the Calling, I have to wonder about two things.

1. How Loghain could stomach how he handled Cailan. Leaving him behind as a pragmatic decision is one thing, but he puts Cailan down like he hates him all of the time. Considering it's the son of his best friend and the woman he loved. . . never mind, I just answered my own question. Cailan represents what Loghain couldn't have with Rowan. Though as much as she loved Cailan, I don't think she's looking down too favorably on him.

2. Why Loghain talks to highly of Maric in Origins. In both novels, he treats Maric like he is an idiot(he even calls him an idiot). Yet in Origins, he talks like Maric was the wisest and greatest man he ever knew.

1) Alcohol was his solution. Seriously though I think he was just a psychopath.

2) Maybe he feels guilty now that Maric is gone or realizes that Maric was better than Cailen in his opinion.

[Wotannanow]

HiroVoid wrote...

He felt it would either cost too many men, it would have been too late, or the darkspawn would have killed them all.

In early drafts, he learned how Cailan was going to leave Anora to marry empress Celene which would have been his motivation for leaving him, but that was cut, so you're left with the top explanation.

Both of those are given as reasons in Return to Ostagar when reading the letters.
The prime reason was always his paranoid fear of the Orlesians. Since Cailan was secretly dealing with Celene, he had to die. Deserting with his army at Ostagar was the best way to reach his goal. But Loghain didn't expect Alistair and the Hero to survive.

[Mr.House]

Simple answer: There was just too many Darkspawn, more then was suspected,

Complex answer: Loghain made a choice to save majority of the Ferelden army sacrificing the gray wardens(who he did not trust and let's face it, they didn't give him a good reason) and the rest of the army that where there. It''s whyLoghain did not want Cailanin the front lines in the first place, Loghain knew there was a huge risk but Cailan didn't want to hear it. He just wanted glory. He also knew Eamon was trying to get his daughter off the throne thus the attempt on Eamons life.Had Loghain not held back, more people would have died, including Loghan. The loss of Loghain, King Cailan, majoity of the army and all the gray wardens would have ansured Fereldens destruction.

Modifié par Mr.House, 29 septembre 2012 - 10:14 .

[Aolbain]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

After reading The Stolen Throne and the Calling, I have to wonder about two things.

1. How Loghain could stomach how he handled Cailan. Leaving him behind as a pragmatic decision is one thing, but he puts Cailan down like he hates him all of the time. Considering it's the son of his best friend and the woman he loved. . . never mind, I just answered my own question. Cailan represents what Loghain couldn't have with Rowan. Though as much as she loved Cailan, I don't think she's looking down too favorably on him.

2. Why Loghain talks to highly of Maric in Origins. In both novels, he treats Maric like he is an idiot(he even calls him an idiot). Yet in Origins, he talks like Maric was the wisest and greatest man he ever knew.

1. He did try to convince him to stay out of the battle so. My theory is that his original plan was just to kill of the Grey Warden.

2. Nostaliga?

[Dave of Canada]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

1. How Loghain could stomach how he handled Cailan. Leaving him behind as a pragmatic decision is one thing, but he puts Cailan down like he hates him all of the time.

He doesn't hate Cailan, he sees him as an immature fool who placed glory above all else (which is true, as it's what ultimately got him killed). You can dislike many of the traits someone has but it doesn't mean you hate them, he just doesn't see the spark which Maric had in Cailan. I mean, Loghain has always been a tough-love kind of character.

I mean, look at what he did to Maric with Katriel and how he left Rowan for the betterment of the Kingdom. Ferelden-first is his ideology and he hasn't changed much over the years, just...  became world-weary, everything he's loved is gone.  Anora, Cailan and Ferelden are the only things he has left after he exhausted the treasury to try and locate Maric.

When given the choice between Ferelden and Cailan, he chooses Ferelden--he'll just be in denial about it as he sees Flemeth's words come true.

2. Why Loghain talks to highly of Maric in Origins. In both novels, he treats Maric like he is an idiot(he even calls him an idiot). Yet in Origins, he talks like Maric was the wisest and greatest man he ever knew.

People change. Maric was an idiot prince who found Loghain and cost him almost everything, yet Loghain followed him. Maric's failures, Loghain's manipulation and the time they spent together eventually grew Maric into the King of Ferelden that Loghain followed. Maric represents Ferelden's freedom from Orlais.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 29 septembre 2012 - 09:40 .