343 réponses à ce sujet

[WhiteKnyght]

The real reason Harbinger didn't shoot the Normandy down was because it wasn't ordered to. It was ordered to protect the beam and take out anybody who went for it. The Normandy was evacuating the injured.

Also if you paid attention to the space battles. It takes two or three shots from aReaper to sink a frigate. And those are standard ships. The Normandy SR-2 has Silaris diamond coated armor(Jacob's ME2 upgrade), which is very resilient. It would take more shots than usual to pierce it. Also when the Normandy was taking off, the Cyclonic barriers(Tali's ME2 Upgrade) would have kicked in, they are very good at taking abuse because they don't absorb blasts directly, but deflect them instead, and when they do fail, the normal shields come back at full strength,

So even if Harbinger did attack, short of getting the Normandy in a death grip, Joker would have had the ship out of there before Harby did any serious damage.

There's also the fact that while assaulting the Normandy, he'd be taking his attention away from protecting the beam. Which is disobeying his orders.

[Maxster_]

liggy002 wrote...

It's one thing not to believe in the IT but people refuse to believe that the IT is possibly the reason why he didn't shoot the Normandy down, it makes the most sense out of anything.  He said something and it sounded like "Serve Us" but Bioware denies that he said anything.  They deny it because they are hiding something.

IT is a conspiracy theory(and bad one) born out of paradox - make sense out of nonsense.

[Maxster_]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

The real reason Harbinger didn't shoot the Normandy down was because it wasn't ordered to. It was ordered to protect the beam and take out anybody who went for it. The Normandy was evacuating the injured.

Also if you paid attention to the space battles. It takes two or three shots from aReaper to sink a frigate. And those are standard ships. The Normandy SR-2 has Silaris diamond coated armor(Jacob's ME2 upgrade), which is very resilient. It would take more shots than usual to pierce it. Also when the Normandy was taking off, the Cyclonic barriers(Tali's ME2 Upgrade) would have kicked in, they are very good at taking abuse because they don't absorb blasts directly, but deflect them instead, and when they do fail, the normal shields come back at full strength,

So even if Harbinger did attack, short of getting the Normandy in a death grip, Joker would have had the ship out of there before Harby did any serious damage.

There's also the fact that while assaulting the Normandy, he'd be taking his attention away from protecting the beam. Which is disobeying his orders.

So why exactly beam run ever needed? Just order Normandy to get near the beam, unload squad and support. Harbringer wouldn't even have time to react.

[Iconoclaste]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

The real reason Harbinger didn't shoot the Normandy down was because it wasn't ordered to. It was ordered to protect the beam and take out anybody who went for it. The Normandy was evacuating the injured.

Also if you paid attention to the space battles. It takes two or three shots from aReaper to sink a frigate. And those are standard ships. The Normandy SR-2 has Silaris diamond coated armor(Jacob's ME2 upgrade), which is very resilient. It would take more shots than usual to pierce it. Also when the Normandy was taking off, the Cyclonic barriers(Tali's ME2 Upgrade) would have kicked in, they are very good at taking abuse because they don't absorb blasts directly, but deflect them instead, and when they do fail, the normal shields come back at full strength,

So even if Harbinger did attack, short of getting the Normandy in a death grip, Joker would have had the ship out of there before Harby did any serious damage.

There's also the fact that while assaulting the Normandy, he'd be taking his attention away from protecting the beam. Which is disobeying his orders.

And there is the Beam structure (and beam, of course) right between the Normandy and Harbinger. Going through the whole sequence many times, I suspected that Harby's rays did not really come from his position "behind" the Beam structure, because he shoots everywhere in front of it, making it very difficult to believe he never hit the structure in the process. When we see the Normandy leaving the place, while "facing" Harbinger, the Beam and structure can clearly be seen between the two. Even with pin-point accuracy, Harby would have managed to get only 1 or 2 brief shots before getting too close to the Beam. I'm not saying "this is it", but at least it gives another "realistic" explanation, rather than falling already in the speculative IT explanation. The two can even add up, of course, but I'm not going there.

Modifié par Iconoclaste, 30 septembre 2012 - 01:54 .

[Iconoclaste]

Maxster_ wrote...

So why exactly beam run ever needed? Just order Normandy to get near the beam, unload squad and support. Harbringer wouldn't even have time to react.

Because no "Priority Earth" mission, and boring...

[chadesh]

actually there is one reason harby didn't shoot the normandy. Shepard wasn't on it

[Iconoclaste]

Maybe EDI just hacked Harbinger's firing protocol??

[Slayer299]

Sorry, but that's a rather convenient escape reason for the Normandy to get away.

[Maxster_]

Iconoclaste wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

So why exactly beam run ever needed? Just order Normandy to get near the beam, unload squad and support. Harbringer wouldn't even have time to react.

Because no "Priority Earth" mission, and boring...

Taking in consideration cutscenes with beam turned on and off, it's retarded anyway

[Gerbil Fetus]

I always thought it was a combination of Story/Gameplay segregation and EDI using the IFF and Defense Protocols to keep Harbinger from Shooting her down.

Having the Reaper LAZORS firing and making tons of noise during the cut scenes would have maybe detracted from the emotional effect of goodbye?

Other examples of this are in insances where Shepard makes his grand speeches to people, backed with a rousing soundtrack.....if you tale too long in saying a line the music will die down, only to start up agin when you keep going with the speech.

During those sorts of cutscene gaps, realisticlly someone would interrupt and wonder why you stopped talking for so long. But because its a game, they dont-the gaps between your speech sentences are reall for you(the player) but NOT the game.

To us players we may have been seeing two ships plainly staring at each other. Entirely possible their hole stare down was an insane no holds barred cyberwarfare punch up.(presumably EDI couldnt keep this up all day, so they still needed to get the hell out of dogde.)

I think from a real world exapmle its probably  Maybe it was hard to Get an in game rendered cinematic to play such a a large scale event all at once, but for ingame reasons i am going with the Cyberwarfare Punchup.

Modifié par Gerbil Fetus, 30 septembre 2012 - 02:35 .

[Gerbil Fetus]

Alternatively:

EDI flooded Harbinger's Communications with Zetabytes of explicit Images.....of Shepard.

[MacNasty]

Gerbil Fetus wrote...

Alternatively:

EDI flooded Harbinger's Communications with Zetabytes of explicit Images.....of Shepard.

Nah, I bet she flooded Harbinger with that Tali photo. 

Modifié par MacNasty, 30 septembre 2012 - 02:56 .

[Kildin_of_the_Volus]

The reason is Mac Walters and Casey Hudson botching the ending, then BW standing by this "art," while simultaneously trying to fix it.

[bboynexus]

Actually, Harbinger intentionally lets it go. And there are numerous possible explanations.

It's very dliberate.

[Metalunatic]

K2LU533 wrote...

Your theory is wrong, the IFF doesn't stop Reapers chasing Normandy on the galaxy map. The reason Harbinger didn't shoot the Normandy is because he was too busy trying to stop people getting to the beam, if even one person slips by him the reapers are royally boned.

This does seem like the most valid explanation, but maybe Harby could waste a second or two to blast the Normandy, it's crew and Shepard him/herself, who I might remind you have been the biggest pain in the Reapers' ass until then.

Only other explanation I can think of comes around to the IT -- Harby doesn't want to kill Shepard becouse he wants to indoctrinate him/her.

Modifié par Metalunatic, 30 septembre 2012 - 03:09 .

[Han Shot First]

Harbinger didn't blast the Normandy out of the sky because he was preoccupied with destroying the tanks, dismounted infantry, and gunships that were rapidly closing on the beam. They, rather than the ship evacuating wounded, were the priority. The ground force presented a direct threat to Harbinger that the Normandy did not. Anyone who made it to the beam could potentially destroy the Reapers, while the Normandy couldn't even dent Harbinger's armor.

From a purely military point of view the Normandy was not important. Obviously in terms of the story, that isn't the case.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 30 septembre 2012 - 03:09 .

[bboynexus]

Have any of you even entertained the idea that Harbinger didn't think it practical to, y'know, destroy a frigate several dozen meters away that has a Tantalus Element Zero Drive Core?

[Shallyah]

I'm not gonna take sides in this argument because it's silly, but going from data provided by the videogame itself, the fact that Harbinger can *see* the Normandy wouldn't realistically help that much in the same way that a minute ago you could see a bigass Reaper taking your whole field of vision towards the conduit and EDI had to enable the targetting signatures so the missiles could hit it at all. You'd think it's as easy as shooting in a straight line, but it really isn't.

It's be similar to Predator movie when Schwarzenagger gets bathed in mud. He just doesn't show in the sensors at all, and similarly, Reapers don't have "eyes", they just have diferent kinds of sensors and filters that give them virtual "sight". I'm not saying it makes more or less sense, but it's a Sci-Fi setting where ships travel 20 light-years in a day. Trying to look for logical explanations to how certain bits of Sci-Fi technology work is rather pointless, and logic doesn't apply.

Modifié par Shallyah, 30 septembre 2012 - 03:18 .

[Maxster_]

Han Shot First wrote...

Harbinger didn't blast the Normandy out of the sky because he was preoccupied with destroying the tanks, dismounted infantry, and gunships that were rapidly closing on the beam. They, rather than the ship evacuating wounded, were the priority. The ground force presented a direct threat to Harbinger that the Normandy did not. Anyone who made it to the beam could potentially destroy the Reapers, while the Normandy couldn't even dent Harbinger's armor.

From a purely military point of view the Normandy was not important. Obviously in terms of the story, that isn't the case.

From a purely military point of view, entire beam run is retarded, especially with reapers easily turning on and off that beam.
Also, from a purely military point of view, ignoring chain of command and endangering fleet operation by Joker is punishable by death.
And, from a purely military point of view, the Normandy(and some other frigates) should be used to unload entire squad and support right before the beam. This way, the Harbringer and his support wouldn't even have time to react.

[Sundance31us]

bboynexus wrote...

Actually, Harbinger intentionally lets it go. And there are numerous possible explanations.

It's very dliberate.

That's just one interpretation. :innocent:

[Maxster_]

Shallyah wrote...

I'm not gonna take sides in this argument because it's silly, but going from data provided by the videogame itself, the fact that Harbinger can *see* the Normandy wouldn't realistically help that much in the same way that a minute ago you could see a bigass Reaper taking your whole field of vision towards the conduit and EDI had to enable the targetting signatures so the missiles could hit it at all. You'd think it's as easy as shooting in a straight line, but it really isn't.

Ah yes, "Thanix Missiles", which used instead of fleet thanix cannons, for a reason of plot convenience. We have dismissed that claim.

It's be similar to Predator movie when Schwarzenagger gets bathed in mud. He just doesn't show in the sensors at all, and similarly, Reapers don't have "eyes", they just have diferent kinds of sensors and filters that give them virtual "sight". I'm not saying it makes more or less sense, but it's a Sci-Fi setting where ships travel 20 light-years in a day. Trying to look for logical explanations to how certain bits of Sci-Fi technology work is rather pointless, and logic doesn't apply.

If Normandy couldn't be detected by reapers in point blank range, why that ship wasn't used to bring squad to the beam?

Modifié par Maxster_, 30 septembre 2012 - 03:29 .

[Han Shot First]

Maxster_ wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

Harbinger didn't blast the Normandy out of the sky because he was preoccupied with destroying the tanks, dismounted infantry, and gunships that were rapidly closing on the beam. They, rather than the ship evacuating wounded, were the priority. The ground force presented a direct threat to Harbinger that the Normandy did not. Anyone who made it to the beam could potentially destroy the Reapers, while the Normandy couldn't even dent Harbinger's armor.

From a purely military point of view the Normandy was not important. Obviously in terms of the story, that isn't the case.

From a purely military point of view, entire beam run is retarded, especially with reapers easily turning on and off that beam.
Also, from a purely military point of view, ignoring chain of command and endangering fleet operation by Joker is punishable by death.
And, from a purely military point of view, the Normandy(and some other frigates) should be used to unload entire squad and support right before the beam. This way, the Harbringer and his support wouldn't even have time to react.

Having served in the military, I think I can speak with some degree of authority on what is and isn't practical from a military point of view. And giving the Normandy priority over the ground force wouldn't be practical.

As to your other points...

1. Entire beam rush is retarded: No, it isn't. It was a desperate gamble to be sure, but it isn't like they had other options. Conventional victory simply wasn't possible.

2. Joker ignored chain of command: Where and when did that happen?!

3. Normandy and other frigates should have been directly involved in the beam rush: By being directly involved in the push rather than simply conducting medevacs, they would have made themselves priority targets. The Normandy likely would have been destroyed in that scenario. Furthermore deploying troops from the Normandy wouldn't have given the Alliance any advantage, when those troops are actually safer while dispersed on the ground. A single shot from Harbinger could annihilate entire platoon(s) aboard a frigate, where as with dismounted infantry he's only killing or wounding a relative handful at a time.

[Shallyah]

Maxster_ wrote...

If Normandy couldn't be detected by reapers in point blank range, why that ship wasn't used to bring squad to the beam?

Heh, that's the good question. I gues that's because then the last mission would be boring. We've already been denied a final bossfight, the last mission should at least have some epicness factored in. 

[Maxster_]

[quote]Han Shot First wrote...

[quote]Maxster_ wrote...

[quote]Han Shot First wrote...

Harbinger didn't blast the Normandy out of the sky because he was preoccupied with destroying the tanks, dismounted infantry, and gunships that were rapidly closing on the beam. They, rather than the ship evacuating wounded, were the priority. The ground force presented a direct threat to Harbinger that the Normandy did not. Anyone who made it to the beam could potentially destroy the Reapers, while the Normandy couldn't even dent Harbinger's armor.

From a purely military point of view the Normandy was not important. Obviously in terms of the story, that isn't the case.[/quote]
From a purely military point of view, entire beam run is retarded, especially with reapers easily turning on and off that beam.
Also, from a purely military point of view, ignoring chain of command and endangering fleet operation by Joker is punishable by death.
And, from a purely military point of view, the Normandy(and some other frigates) should be used to unload entire squad and support right before the beam. This way, the Harbringer and his support wouldn't even have time to react.
[/quote]

Having served in the military, I think I can speak with some degree of authority on what is and isn't practical from a military point of view. And giving the Normandy priority over the ground force wouldn't be practical.
[/quote]
Except explosion of normandy would be more effective than shooting individual soldiers.
[quote]
As to your other points...

1. Entire beam rush is retarded: No, it isn't. It was a desperate gamble to be sure, but it isn't like they had other options. Conventional victory simply wasn't possible.
[/quote]
It is retarded, because instead of using stealth frigate to unload squad and support before unprotected beam, to lower the probabilty of reapers shutting down the beam, - command commenced entire ground operation, without air superiority and against overwhelming forces. So, at any moment of that operation, reapers just shut down the beam - and they won.
And don't tell me, that they can't shutdown their own beam.
[/quote]
[quote]
2. Joker ignored chain of command: Where and when did that happen?!
[/quote]
Who is in charge on Normandy when Shepard is ashore? And how and why that unknown person ignored admiral Hackett(or his subordinate in charge of Normandy frigate pack) orders thus endangering the fleet(leaving their position and role)?
[quote]
3. Normandy and other frigates should have been directly involved in the beam rush: By being directly involved in the push rather than simply conducting medevacs, they would have made themselves priority targets. The Normandy likely would have been destroyed in that scenario. Furthermore deploying troops from the Normandy wouldn't have given the Alliance any advantage, when those troops are actually safer while dispersed on the ground. A single shot from Harbinger could annihilate entire platoon(s) aboard a frigate, where as with dismounted infantry he's only killing or wounding a relative handful at a time.

[/quote]
1. Using stealth warship for medevac is retarded and waste of resources.
2. Risking over a 100 crew and advanced frigate to evacuate a exactly TWO squadmate is retarded and waste of resources. Also, ignoring other wounded is well.. you know, is retarded. Whoever gave Shepard rank higher than lieutenant should hang himself because of shame.
3. Deploying troops from Normandy would give tremendous advantage and element of surpise. You seem to forget, that Harbringer and his support were drawn to the beam because of that retarded ground assault.

[Maxster_]

Shallyah wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

If Normandy couldn't be detected by reapers in point blank range, why that ship wasn't used to bring squad to the beam?

Heh, that's the good question. I gues that's because then the last mission would be boring. We've already been denied a final bossfight, the last mission should at least have some epicness factored in. 

Yeah, i love the epicness of dreadnoughts bombarding Earth. Burn you human racists