252 réponses à ce sujet

[Mcfly616]

OP, the "god" you're referring to is the Catalyst, its an AI that is the central consciousness of the Reapers. For whatever reason you couldn't foresee that happening?

And every choice you made to that point is not rendered meaningless. Considering he saved the galaxy, I'd say it meant a whole lot.

There's also plenty of closure. Most of the squadmates have already told you what they plan on doing after the war. You get to see the Galaxy and the new beginning/future you gave to it. And Shepard either pays the ultimate price or he survives.

Did you want Bioware to tell you how your Shepard lives the rest of his life? I would assume you know how your Shepard would spend his golden days after ending the greatest threat in galactic history.

[Selene Moonsong]

*sigh* It seems folks are insistent upon missing the obvious of the gasp of breath and the romantic interest not hanging Shep's plaque on the Normandy memorial wall.

How much hand-holding through a story do people need, an epilogue addendum detailing how Shep recovered and s/he and his/her LI rejoined and raised children?

IMHO, those are stories for another time and place, such as mention in another game at another time.

[Demadrio]

wwinters99 wrote...

We have a story that lasts 3 games. In that story we have a man who fights for what he believes in despite the odds.

However, in the third act, a god appears unprompted and unasked for. With a few words this god ends our hero's journey and renders all his actions until that point meaningless.

Not necessarily.

First of all, you have to wonder if it's all been a single journey. You never find out in ME1 exactly what he's trying to get a refund for. It may be the very toaster mentioned in ME3, but then again, it may not. After all, in ME2, he's trying to exchange an omni-gel converter.

Second, the divine intervention does not invalidate his actions or his journey — unless your head-canon has him prioritizing convincing the merchant himself over simply getting his damn refund, which, since he's human, is rather unlikely.

And as for closure, well, we don't get much closure for anybody who's not on Shepard's squad. Not Conrad, nor the Consort, nor Barla Von, nor Morlan, nor Dr. Michel, nor Mouse, nor the diplomats, nor even Bailey & the Counsel. If you want subsequent biographies of every character in a story, go read Shaw.

[Maxster_]

Bester76 wrote...

Selene Moonsong wrote...
So, yes, the game did provide closure, just not the kind of closure that everyone wanted for their individual Commander Shepard character, which can cvary from player to player. Writing several more variants of endings just does not make sense, IMHO.

Many don't want a variant though - they want an ending where Shepard definitely lives, without any need for head canon. 

It's the end of Shepard's story, there's nothing to carry through into ME4, so what difference would that make?

Let's face it, Shepard's tale has ended, so let's just move on, shall we?

Well no, by BW's own words, my Shepard's buried in some rubble, might be dead, might be alive. That's not closure, it's a cliffhanger. The lazy excuse of "well just use head canon", no, I haven't put hundreds of hours into the franchise only to have to 'imagine' the ending for myself. That's an absolute cop-out.

Actually, endings before EC, without a breath scene, and retarded normandy crash scene - have a complete closure, especially destroy. Everyone is dead, reapers included. At some distant systems with no relays, civilizations can live free.
It just not fit in heroic saga in any way.

[Davik Kang]

Mcfly616 wrote...

OP, the "god" you're referring to is the Catalyst, its an AI that is the central consciousness of the Reapers. For whatever reason you couldn't foresee that happening? 

And every choice you made to that point is not rendered meaningless. Considering he saved the galaxy, I'd say it meant a whole lot.

There's also plenty of closure. Most of the squadmates have already told you what they plan on doing after the war. You get to see the Galaxy and the new beginning/future you gave to it. And Shepard either pays the ultimate price or he survives.

Did you want Bioware to tell you how your Shepard lives the rest of his life? I would assume you know how your Shepard would spend his golden days after ending the greatest threat in galactic history.

Selene Moonsong wrote...

*sigh* It seems folks are insistent upon missing the obvious of the gasp of breath and the romantic interest not hanging Shep's plaque on the Normandy memorial wall.

How much hand-holding through a story do people need, an epilogue addendum detailing how Shep recovered and s/he and his/her LI rejoined and raised children?

IMHO, those are stories for another time and place, such as mention in another game at another time.

Rational input is not welcome here.  We want MINDLESS RAGE and PETULANT DEMANDS

[Reorte]

Selene Moonsong wrote...

*sigh* It seems folks are insistent upon missing the obvious of the gasp of breath and the romantic interest not hanging Shep's plaque on the Normandy memorial wall.

How much hand-holding through a story do people need, an epilogue addendum detailing how Shep recovered and s/he and his/her LI rejoined and raised children?

IMHO, those are stories for another time and place, such as mention in another game at another time.

Yeah, a LI who would have no way of knowing and a gasp of breath. Sure, you can interpret that as surviving Shepard but only by considering why those scenes might've been put in, and if you have to step outside the story to consider why the writers have chucked it in then they've failed badly. I get tired of people defending such badly-done stuff.

Modifié par Reorte, 29 septembre 2012 - 09:22 .

[Ticonderoga117]

Selene Moonsong wrote...

*sigh* It seems folks are insistent upon missing the obvious of the gasp of breath and the romantic interest not hanging Shep's plaque on the Normandy memorial wall.

How much hand-holding through a story do people need, an epilogue addendum detailing how Shep recovered and s/he and his/her LI rejoined and raised children?

IMHO, those are stories for another time and place, such as mention in another game at another time.

The breath does not mean anything. Could be a last gasp, or could be signs of life.
The LI not haging the plaque doesn't mean anything either because they could believe that Shepard couldn't have died, while possibly being completely wrong.

Author intent screams to us that Shepard HAS to die. There's only one case of him possibly living, and that's after attempting suicide (moving forward and shooting the pipe at point blank range with a gun).

Since we are given an epilogue speech by Admiral Hackett, it's odd that he doesn't mention the one person who saved everyone everywhere, not even in passing. Why? Oh, that's because BioWare doesn't want to make that one ending definite in either case for some bizzare reason.

Lastly, there will be no other time and place. This was it for Shepard. Given that large details don't matter, how would they bring that out in other ME games? They won't.

[CommanderVyse]

Demadrio wrote...

wwinters99 wrote...

We have a story that lasts 3 games. In that story we have a man who fights for what he believes in despite the odds.

However, in the third act, a god appears unprompted and unasked for. With a few words this god ends our hero's journey and renders all his actions until that point meaningless.

Not necessarily.

First of all, you have to wonder if it's all been a single journey. You never find out in ME1 exactly what he's trying to get a refund for. It may be the very toaster mentioned in ME3, but then again, it may not. After all, in ME2, he's trying to exchange an omni-gel converter.

Second, the divine intervention does not invalidate his actions or his journey — unless your head-canon has him prioritizing convincing the merchant himself over simply getting his damn refund, which, since he's human, is rather unlikely.

And as for closure, well, we don't get much closure for anybody who's not on Shepard's squad. Not Conrad, nor the Consort, nor Barla Von, nor Morlan, nor Dr. Michel, nor Mouse, nor the diplomats, nor even Bailey & the Counsel. If you want subsequent biographies of every character in a story, go read Shaw.

I imagine the omni-gel convertor was either an exchange of equal or lesser value or part of a long series of fetch quests ultimately leading to the toaster.

[Chardonney]

Bester76 wrote...

Selene Moonsong wrote...
So, yes, the game did provide closure, just not the kind of closure that everyone wanted for their individual Commander Shepard character, which can cvary from player to player. Writing several more variants of endings just does not make sense, IMHO.

Many don't want a variant though - they want an ending where Shepard definitely lives, without any need for head canon. 

It's the end of Shepard's story, there's nothing to carry through into ME4, so what difference would that make?

Let's face it, Shepard's tale has ended, so let's just move on, shall we?

Well no, by BW's own words, my Shepard's buried in some rubble, might be dead, might be alive. That's not closure, it's a cliffhanger. The lazy excuse of "well just use head canon", no, I haven't put hundreds of hours into the franchise only to have to 'imagine' the ending for myself. That's an absolute cop-out.

Very well said.

[Mcfly616]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Selene Moonsong wrote...

*sigh* It seems folks are insistent upon missing the obvious of the gasp of breath and the romantic interest not hanging Shep's plaque on the Normandy memorial wall.

How much hand-holding through a story do people need, an epilogue addendum detailing how Shep recovered and s/he and his/her LI rejoined and raised children?

IMHO, those are stories for another time and place, such as mention in another game at another time.

The breath does not mean anything. Could be a last gasp, or could be signs of life.
The LI not haging the plaque doesn't mean anything either because they could believe that Shepard couldn't have died, while possibly being completely wrong.

Author intent screams to us that Shepard HAS to die.

You clearly have no concept whatsoever of what the Authors intent was. You believe whatever you want though. We'll stick to the "facts".

[Mcfly616]

Davik Kang wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

OP, the "god" you're referring to is the Catalyst, its an AI that is the central consciousness of the Reapers. For whatever reason you couldn't foresee that happening? 

And every choice you made to that point is not rendered meaningless. Considering he saved the galaxy, I'd say it meant a whole lot.

There's also plenty of closure. Most of the squadmates have already told you what they plan on doing after the war. You get to see the Galaxy and the new beginning/future you gave to it. And Shepard either pays the ultimate price or he survives.

Did you want Bioware to tell you how your Shepard lives the rest of his life? I would assume you know how your Shepard would spend his golden days after ending the greatest threat in galactic history.

Selene Moonsong wrote...

*sigh* It seems folks are insistent upon missing the obvious of the gasp of breath and the romantic interest not hanging Shep's plaque on the Normandy memorial wall.

How much hand-holding through a story do people need, an epilogue addendum detailing how Shep recovered and s/he and his/her LI rejoined and raised children?

IMHO, those are stories for another time and place, such as mention in another game at another time.

Rational input is not welcome here.  We want MINDLESS RAGE and PETULANT DEMANDS

Indeed lol you're catching on fast. Look out.....they're watching you

[Ticonderoga117]

Mcfly616 wrote...
You clearly have no concept whatsoever of what the Authors intent was. You believe whatever you want though. We'll stick to the "facts".

To kill Shepard.

And your "facts" aren't facts.

[Reorte]

Mcfly616 wrote...

You clearly have no concept whatsoever of what the Authors intent was. You believe whatever you want though. We'll stick to the "facts".

If you have to start thinking about the author's intent instead of letting scenes speak entirely on their own merit then the author has messed up.

[Mcfly616]

Reorte wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

You clearly have no concept whatsoever of what the Authors intent was. You believe whatever you want though. We'll stick to the "facts".

If you have to start thinking about the author's intent instead of letting scenes speak entirely on their own merit then the author has messed up.

who said "I" was "thinking" about the intent? No, its quite obvious on screen. The scenes do speak entirely for themselves. The memorial wall scene isn't different for "no reason". The breathe scene isn't there for "no reason"

Common sense and all that

[Ticonderoga117]

Mcfly616 wrote...
who said "I" was "thinking" about the intent? No, its quite obvious on screen. The scenes do speak entirely for themselves. The memorial wall scene isn't different for "no reason". The breathe scene isn't there for "no reason"

Common sense and all that

But niether of them mean "Shepard is alive".
The breath scene could be a last gasp and the LI scene could be the LI not wanting to give up hope.

None of it means "Shepard is still alive", and there's a reason for that. They want us to speculate.

[clarkusdarkus]

Selene Moonsong wrote...

*sigh* It seems folks are insistent upon missing the obvious of the gasp of breath and the romantic interest not hanging Shep's plaque on the Normandy memorial wall.

How much hand-holding through a story do people need, an epilogue addendum detailing how Shep recovered and s/he and his/her LI rejoined and raised children?

IMHO, those are stories for another time and place, such as mention in another game at another time.

Seems your just tired of reading the same old posts, but for the love of god that hand holding you talk of is needed bigtime 15 mins from the end. We didnt pay for headcanon btw 

[Mcfly616]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...
You clearly have no concept whatsoever of what the Authors intent was. You believe whatever you want though. We'll stick to the "facts".

To kill Shepard.

And your "facts" aren't facts.

No....they are indeed facts. When something is printed in ink, mass produced for global distribution, that clearly states 'Shepard Lives', I consider that a fact. Much moreso than the opinionated nonsense you're spewing atleast. Good luck with all that negativity though. Hope it works out for you.

(Reference: Page 323 of the ME3 official strategy guide.....oh yeah, and there's always the file name.)

[Reorte]

Mcfly616 wrote...

Reorte wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

You clearly have no concept whatsoever of what the Authors intent was. You believe whatever you want though. We'll stick to the "facts".

If you have to start thinking about the author's intent instead of letting scenes speak entirely on their own merit then the author has messed up.

who said "I" was "thinking" about the intent? No, its quite obvious on screen. The scenes do speak entirely for themselves. The memorial wall scene isn't different for "no reason". The breathe scene isn't there for "no reason"

Common sense and all that

Which doesn't alter one single thing I said. You're having to consider the reason for the scene, even if you're do so subconciously. Purely based on the information in it it means sweet FA. A good story should react to you the same way real events would (you should just be able to shrug them off far more easily) and therefore information that wouldn't at all satisfy if it's all you happened to get in reality shouldn't in fiction either. The only way it works in fiction is as a cliffhanger.

[Mcfly616]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...
who said "I" was "thinking" about the intent? No, its quite obvious on screen. The scenes do speak entirely for themselves. The memorial wall scene isn't different for "no reason". The breathe scene isn't there for "no reason"

Common sense and all that

But niether of them mean "Shepard is alive".
The breath scene could be a last gasp and the LI scene could be the LI not wanting to give up hope.

None of it means "Shepard is still alive", and there's a reason for that. They want us to speculate.

as I said before, clearly you have no concept of the authors intent. Because both of those specific scenes demonstrate the intent all too clearly. You obviously choose to be in denial about it though. Since common sense isn't on your side apparently, maybe the fine print on the ending as well as the title of that specific scene would convince you? Ahh probably not....

[CommanderVyse]

Mcfly616 wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...
You clearly have no concept whatsoever of what the Authors intent was. You believe whatever you want though. We'll stick to the "facts".

To kill Shepard.

And your "facts" aren't facts.

No....they are indeed facts. When something is printed in ink, mass produced for global distribution, that clearly states 'Shepard Lives', I consider that a fact. Much moreso than the opinionated nonsense you're spewing atleast. Good luck with all that negativity though. Hope it works out for you.

(Reference: Page 323 of the ME3 official strategy guide.....oh yeah, and there's always the file name.)

Please, I don't care what side of an argument you are on, don't cite a strategy guide as reference.

[Selene Moonsong]

Reorte wrote...

Yeah, a LI who would have no way of knowing and a gasp of breath. Sure, you can interpret that as surviving Shepard but only by considering why those scenes might've been put in, and if you have to step outside the story to consider why the writers have chucked it in then they've failed badly. I get tired of people defending such badly-done stuff.

Except for one small problem, even one of the Dev's stated that the dramatatic pause of the LI was because he/she doesn't believe or otherwise accept that Shep is dead, which does have meaning in liturature in that the one thought lost has not been lost, but has somehow managed to survive despite the odds and this reflects very much on Shepard's tenacity over the entire series.

[Mcfly616]

Reorte wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

Reorte wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

You clearly have no concept whatsoever of what the Authors intent was. You believe whatever you want though. We'll stick to the "facts".

If you have to start thinking about the author's intent instead of letting scenes speak entirely on their own merit then the author has messed up.

who said "I" was "thinking" about the intent? No, its quite obvious on screen. The scenes do speak entirely for themselves. The memorial wall scene isn't different for "no reason". The breathe scene isn't there for "no reason"

Common sense and all that

Which doesn't alter one single thing I said. You're having to consider the reason for the scene, even if you're do so subconciously. Purely based on the information in it it means sweet FA. A good story should react to you the same way real events would (you should just be able to shrug them off far more easily) and therefore information that wouldn't at all satisfy if it's all you happened to get in reality shouldn't in fiction either. The only way it works in fiction is as a cliffhanger.

bro, idk what you're talking about....but it does alter every single thing you said. I am not considering or wondering what the scenes mean. I know what the scenes mean. I'm content with them....which is probably the reason I'm not trying to say theyre something they're not.

[Ticonderoga117]

Mcfly616 wrote...
 No....they are indeed facts. When something is printed in ink, mass produced for global distribution, that clearly states 'Shepard Lives', I consider that a fact. Much moreso than the opinionated nonsense you're spewing atleast. Good luck with all that negativity though. Hope it works out for you.

(Reference: Page 323 of the ME3 official strategy guide.....oh yeah, and there's always the file name.)

Something in-game that would definitively say Shepard is alive would be having Hackett mention that Shepard is alive and retired somewhere to stay out of the highlights or something. But no, Hackett never mentions Shepard.  Having some scene that is not definite either way is not a "fact".

[CommanderVyse]

Selene Moonsong wrote...

Reorte wrote...

Yeah, a LI who would have no way of knowing and a gasp of breath. Sure, you can interpret that as surviving Shepard but only by considering why those scenes might've been put in, and if you have to step outside the story to consider why the writers have chucked it in then they've failed badly. I get tired of people defending such badly-done stuff.

Except for one small problem, even one of the Dev's stated that the dramatatic pause of the LI was because he/she doesn't believe or otherwise accept that Shep is dead, which does have meaning in liturature in that the one thought lost has not been lost, but has somehow managed to survive despite the odds and this reflects very much on Shepard's tenacity over the entire series.

The Devs said a lot of things that ended up false when the game actually shipped. If it isn't in the game, it didn't happen.

[Mcfly616]

Selene Moonsong wrote...

Reorte wrote...

Yeah, a LI who would have no way of knowing and a gasp of breath. Sure, you can interpret that as surviving Shepard but only by considering why those scenes might've been put in, and if you have to step outside the story to consider why the writers have chucked it in then they've failed badly. I get tired of people defending such badly-done stuff.

Except for one small problem, even one of the Dev's stated that the dramatatic pause of the LI was because he/she doesn't believe or otherwise accept that Shep is dead, which does have meaning in liturature in that the one thought lost has not been lost, but has somehow managed to survive despite the odds and this reflects very much on Shepard's tenacity over the entire series.

yes, while people here try to pretend to know the authors intent and say the scenes are meaningless, its quite obvious they have no concept of the term "symbolism"


Which is odd, because its sort of a big thing in the whole story-telling world.