252 réponses à ce sujet

[Ticonderoga117]

Selene Moonsong wrote...
Except for one small problem, even one of the Dev's stated that the dramatatic pause of the LI was because he/she doesn't believe or otherwise accept that Shep is dead, which does have meaning in liturature in that the one thought lost has not been lost, but has somehow managed to survive despite the odds and this reflects very much on Shepard's tenacity over the entire series.

Except that it's elaborated on later and is either shown to be true or completely false. There is niether in ME3.

[Mcfly616]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...
 No....they are indeed facts. When something is printed in ink, mass produced for global distribution, that clearly states 'Shepard Lives', I consider that a fact. Much moreso than the opinionated nonsense you're spewing atleast. Good luck with all that negativity though. Hope it works out for you.

(Reference: Page 323 of the ME3 official strategy guide.....oh yeah, and there's always the file name.)

Something in-game that would definitively say Shepard is alive would be having Hackett mention that Shepard is alive and retired somewhere to stay out of the highlights or something. But no, Hackett never mentions Shepard.  Having some scene that is not definite either way is not a "fact".

I could careless if its in an official strategy guide or in-game. It's quite obvious in both. You don't have to accept it though.


I'm sure you were pulling you're hair out at the end of Inception or The Grey.....god forbid everything isnt spelled out word for word for you lol

Modifié par Mcfly616, 29 septembre 2012 - 10:13 .

[Cainne Chapel]

wwinters99 wrote...

Selene Moonsong wrote...

Reorte wrote...

Yeah, a LI who would have no way of knowing and a gasp of breath. Sure, you can interpret that as surviving Shepard but only by considering why those scenes might've been put in, and if you have to step outside the story to consider why the writers have chucked it in then they've failed badly. I get tired of people defending such badly-done stuff.

Except for one small problem, even one of the Dev's stated that the dramatatic pause of the LI was because he/she doesn't believe or otherwise accept that Shep is dead, which does have meaning in liturature in that the one thought lost has not been lost, but has somehow managed to survive despite the odds and this reflects very much on Shepard's tenacity over the entire series.

The Devs said a lot of things that ended up false when the game actually shipped. If it isn't in the game, it didn't happen.

You're right! Because if we didn't see it it must be IT!

Seriously though there are different scenes where they DO hang the memorial and ones we're they dont, the symbolism is MIGHTY strong there.

Or they could of gone all Sherlock Holmes 2 and have shepard come out of active camo and smile before they fade to black *shrug*

[Mcfly616]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Selene Moonsong wrote...
Except for one small problem, even one of the Dev's stated that the dramatatic pause of the LI was because he/she doesn't believe or otherwise accept that Shep is dead, which does have meaning in liturature in that the one thought lost has not been lost, but has somehow managed to survive despite the odds and this reflects very much on Shepard's tenacity over the entire series.

Except that it's elaborated on later and is either shown to be true or completely false.

this statement is completely false.

[Reorte]

Mcfly616 wrote...

I could careless if its in an official strategy guide or in-game. It's quite obvious in both. You don't have to accept it though.

I'm sure you were pulling you're hair out at the end of Inception or The Grey.....god forbid everything is spelled out word for word for you lol

Spelling something out for you means that it's all made blindingly obvious even when without that spelling out there's no room for ambiguity if you look closely enough at the details and put all the pieces together. If you think that the breath scene on its own is completely unambiguous then I pity you.

[Ticonderoga117]

Mcfly616 wrote...
I could careless if its in an official strategy guide or in-game. It's quite obvious in both. You don't have to accept it though.


I'm sure you were pulling you're hair out at the end of Inception or The Grey.....god forbid everything is spelled out word for word for you lol

Inception was fine, because that was the entire point of the movie. Same with the Matrix and what have you.

However, in ME3 niether is obvious. You're given the facts that Shepard shot a tube at point blank, exploded, ended up under a pile of rubble and takes one breath... and that's it. Now yes, he's proven tought to kill, but then again he was never that much of an idiot before to walk INTO an explosion. Not to mention that in the original version of the endings, the entire Citadel exploded!

Obvious is we see Shepard or hear about him later. Not obvious is doing what ME3 did and say "Yeah, it's up to you. We won't say either way."

[Reorte]

Selene Moonsong wrote...

Reorte wrote...

Yeah, a LI who would have no way of knowing and a gasp of breath. Sure, you can interpret that as surviving Shepard but only by considering why those scenes might've been put in, and if you have to step outside the story to consider why the writers have chucked it in then they've failed badly. I get tired of people defending such badly-done stuff.

Except for one small problem, even one of the Dev's stated that the dramatatic pause of the LI was because he/she doesn't believe or otherwise accept that Shep is dead, which does have meaning in liturature in that the one thought lost has not been lost, but has somehow managed to survive despite the odds and this reflects very much on Shepard's tenacity over the entire series.

Sure, that's all part of why I take it to mean that Shepard is almost certainly alive. But I find that way of doing it incredibly unsatisfying because it means that I've got to stop going on the information presented in-game and start to second-guess authorial intent and reflect upon literary conventions. In other words it completely fails to stand up on its own merits - and in any case there's the little nagging doubt that if it was completely intended to mean all that why the hell make it look ambiguous? Spelling something out obviously when the clues are there anyway is one thing, adding in ambiguity for the sake of it is another.

Modifié par Reorte, 29 septembre 2012 - 10:21 .

[Mcfly616]

Sion1138 wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...
 yes, while people here try to pretend to know the authors intent and say the scenes are meaningless, its quite obvious they have no concept of the term "symbolism"

Which is odd, because its sort of a big thing in the whole story-telling world.

This was a role-playing game. It was the last in a series of three role-playing games. 

So, here I embodied the character Shepard for three games, quite some time, and in the end, instead of a proper rewarding experience you will symbolically imply that my character is alive. May not be... 

When everything up to this moment was done in a different style, not just in Mass Effect but every other Bioware game I ever played.

I don't understand the merit of this particular decision.

well, whether its an RPG anymore is debatable. But I understand what you're saying. I role-play all my Shepards. and that was the whole point of the breathe scene. To let you know that your Shepard lives on. Only you know how your Shepard would live the rest of his days. Did you want them to take "you" out of "your Shepard", and just show you pictures on how your Shepard lived? Kinda takes the "role-playing" out of it, don't it?

[Ticonderoga117]

Mcfly616 wrote...
 this statement is completely false.

No. In the StarFist book series, a rather awesome character is presumed killed in an operation. However, one of his friends refuses to believe this person is dead. This is then elaborated on later by showing us that, yes, he is alive. The plot then follows him and his adventures until re-united.

I can't think of any books that pull what ME 3 did on a main character.

[Ticonderoga117]

Mcfly616 wrote...
well, whether its an RPG anymore is debatable. But I understand what you're saying. I role-play all my Shepards. and that was the whole point of the breathe scene. To let you know that your Shepard lives on. Only you know how your Shepard would live the rest of his days. Did you want them to take "you" out of "your Shepard", and just show you pictures on how your Shepard lived? Kinda takes the "role-playing" out of it, don't it?

Except that already happens in ME3. Auto-dialogue, forced emotion (You will feel for this derpy kid!), complete lack of middle dialogue choice, and the fact that my last big decision at the Collector Base means absolutely nothing!

[Reorte]

Mcfly616 wrote...

well, whether its an RPG anymore is debatable. But I understand what you're saying. I role-play all my Shepards. and that was the whole point of the breathe scene. To let you know that your Shepard lives on. Only you know how your Shepard would live the rest of his days. Did you want them to take "you" out of "your Shepard", and just show you pictures on how your Shepard lived? Kinda takes the "role-playing" out of it, don't it?

If you're saying that there shouldn't have been slides showing what Shepard gets up to for the rest of his life I completely agree. Those are beyond the scope of this story and where headcanon belongs. That would be going well beyond the finishing line, the problem is that we don't quite see Shepard reaching that line. The race is cut off with a furlong to go, even though it's with the horse we've bet on in front.

[Mcfly616]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...
I could careless if its in an official strategy guide or in-game. It's quite obvious in both. You don't have to accept it though.


I'm sure you were pulling you're hair out at the end of Inception or The Grey.....god forbid everything is spelled out word for word for you lol

Inception was fine, because that was the entire point of the movie. Same with the Matrix and what have you.

However, in ME3 niether is obvious. You're given the facts that Shepard shot a tube at point blank, exploded, ended up under a pile of rubble and takes one breath... and that's it. Now yes, he's proven tought to kill, but then again he was never that much of an idiot before to walk INTO an explosion. Not to mention that in the original version of the endings, the entire Citadel exploded!

Obvious is we see Shepard or hear about him later. Not obvious is doing what ME3 did and say "Yeah, it's up to you. We won't say either way."

The ending of the Matrix Revolutions is the worst ending in the history of trilogies. Cop-out after cop-out, from one scene to another. I've never heard so many "boo's" and "wtf's!" in a theater. In fact, that probably the only time I've heard anybody "boo" in a theater, let alone everybody in it.

And that's all I have to say about that lol rant over.

No man, look, I don't have no beef with you. Believe what you want. I'm not gonna change your mind. And I definitely don't want to debate the breathe scene....been there, done that. Know what I mean?

[Chardonney]

Selene Moonsong wrote...

Reorte wrote...

Yeah, a LI who would have no way of knowing and a gasp of breath. Sure, you can interpret that as surviving Shepard but only by considering why those scenes might've been put in, and if you have to step outside the story to consider why the writers have chucked it in then they've failed badly. I get tired of people defending such badly-done stuff.

Except for one small problem, even one of the Dev's stated that the dramatatic pause of the LI was because he/she doesn't believe or otherwise accept that Shep is dead, which does have meaning in liturature in that the one thought lost has not been lost, but has somehow managed to survive despite the odds and this reflects very much on Shepard's tenacity over the entire series.

With all due respect, the problem is that those little things are not enough, not for a very vast amount of players. We're not asking to see Shep and hers/his LI raising kids or buying a house or a dog or whatever. All we wanted was a tangible evidence that Shep is alive and reunited with hers/his LI. All three games have been all about choices and their consequences. A happier ending should've been one of the options, something you could achieve if you worked hard enough and made your choices wisely. 

[CommanderVyse]

Sion1138 wrote...

Also, stop using the "it's used in literature" argument. This is something other than pure literature. This is a damn role-playing game.

If you want to go into the realm of what is what in literature and take a critical look at Mass Effect 3 from that perspective, the story is minced meat.

True, if George R.R. Martin wants to kill one of his characters, we might not like it, but that is his decision.

However, since this is a RPG, Shepard is OUR character. If Shepard dies it is either because we weren't a good enough player, or we wanted it to happen.

[Ticonderoga117]

Mcfly616 wrote...
The ending of the Matrix Revolutions is the worst ending in the history of trilogies. Cop-out after cop-out, from one scene to another. I've never heard so many "boo's" and "wtf's!" in a theater. In fact, that probably the only time I've heard anybody "boo" in a theater, let alone everybody in it.

And that's all I have to say about that lol rant over.

No man, look, I don't have no beef with you. Believe what you want. I'm not gonna change your mind. And I definitely don't want to debate the breathe scene....been there, done that. Know what I mean?

I meant the first Matrix. lol
And yeah, I hear that.

[Mcfly616]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...
 this statement is completely false.

No. In the StarFist book series, a rather awesome character is presumed killed in an operation. However, one of his friends refuses to believe this person is dead. This is then elaborated on later by showing us that, yes, he is alive. The plot then follows him and his adventures until re-united.

I can't think of any books that pull what ME 3 did on a main character.

bro, thats one book series. I can list countless books and movies that completely turn the plot on its ear at the last minute and end it in a way that the reader/viewer doesn't get every single thing spelled out for them. Where the protagonist is presented with a choice or conflict, and we are left with nothing but our own interpretation of it.

[Ticonderoga117]

Sion1138 wrote...

And while we are on the subject of "taking the role-playing out of it", what about the control ending?

Suddenly my character is narrating... He is actually narrating. With me having no control whatsoever over what he is saying. Spouting things which I do not want him to or do not agree with at all.

That is taking the role-playing out of it, and that is what the writer did.

Well that's not exactly Shepard. It's a copy, which could possibly be him.
Considering how AI's are with their blueboxes, my bet is that that isn't Shepard as we knew him/her.

[Obadiah]

We got closure by any reasonable definition.

There was no choice discarded. My Sheps ended the Genophage, united the Geth and Quarians, etc. The ramifications of every important choice I can remember making in ME1 and ME2 is expounded upon in ME3, even if it was just a codex entry explaining Conrad Verner's contribution to the war effort.

We got closure. Epilogue captions show most of our surviving squadies after the big choice. In addition, exposition is given on the ME universe stretching thousands of years into the future.

There was certainly no "knife twisted."

The whine just never stops flowing on this forum.

[Mcfly616]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...
The ending of the Matrix Revolutions is the worst ending in the history of trilogies. Cop-out after cop-out, from one scene to another. I've never heard so many "boo's" and "wtf's!" in a theater. In fact, that probably the only time I've heard anybody "boo" in a theater, let alone everybody in it.

And that's all I have to say about that lol rant over.

No man, look, I don't have no beef with you. Believe what you want. I'm not gonna change your mind. And I definitely don't want to debate the breathe scene....been there, done that. Know what I mean?

I meant the first Matrix. lol
And yeah, I hear that.

ah good! The first Matrix is one of my favorite movies ever. I try to forget the sequals. The ending of the Matrix was perfect

[legion 21]

what happens to your squadmates like garrus or liara?

[Reorte]

Mcfly616 wrote...

ah good! The first Matrix is one of my favorite movies ever. I try to forget the sequals. The ending of the Matrix was perfect

Stop mixing in things I agree with in this thread with the rest of your posts, I've been to the pub and can't deal with the variety right now

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Sion1138 wrote...

And while we are on the subject of "taking the role-playing out of it", what about the control ending?

Suddenly
my character is narrating... He is actually narrating. With me having
no control whatsoever over what he is saying. Spouting things which I do
not want him to or do not agree with at all.

That is taking the role-playing out of it, and that is what the writer did.

Well that's not exactly Shepard. It's a copy, which could possibly be him.
Considering how AI's are with their blueboxes, my bet is that that isn't Shepard as we knew him/her.

+1, accepting everything building up to the post-choice scenes for the sake of argument that iffy tone on Controlling Shepard was done really well IMO.

Modifié par Reorte, 29 septembre 2012 - 10:38 .