252 réponses à ce sujet

[Cainne Chapel]

Honestly? I cant remember exact examples as its been a while since I've watched a LOT of my sci-fi and horror movies, I just mentioned it because I distinctly remember quite a few that just end. No explanation, no concern for what happens after, they just END with vague oh they survive or everything ends connotations.

In fact they dot hat quite a LOT in horror movies these days.

But as someone posted earlier, a lot of early sci fi didnt exactly end on high notes but rather depressing ones.

Twilight zone in particular i remember used to end a lot on "OMG...." moments. Same with Outer Limits

and I LOVED those shows, which is maybe why the ending didnt exactly ruin things for me

[Cainne Chapel]

Sion1138 wrote...

Cainne Chapel wrote...

I'm a long time tabletop Ad&D player myself, 

however at no point in the history of gaming have I ever felt as personal a connection to my characters as I do when I actually create that character whole cloth.  Granted I role played shepard but shepard never truly was mine or ours to begin with, sure we could MOLD him in certain ways, but unfortunately for us, the story was always going to go a certain way regardless.  So that does damper a lot of the connection  (In any CRPG that is too).

Now it IS a big deal when the main character dies, and it should be done so sparingly, I however had no problem with the way they handled in in ME2 or ME3 honestly.

and while yes you want to end on a high not, everything doesn't always need to end well for everyone to be a good ending, I was quite happy with the way my shep sacrificed himself for the galaxy and the end result.  That said I do agree a short cutscene cementing his well being (at least at the point) would have gone a long way.

I suspect however they wanted to keep it as ambiguous as possible

Actually, I found the control I had over my character quite adequate in ME1 and 2. 

First you chose a background, then you defined his class, then you defined his character, his connections or lack thereof, then you defined his actions. Always within a set number of choices, but they were adequate choices. With enough variety.

That is why the games did pull me into the role. It was only subverted in ME3 through a crapload of auto-dialogue, weird dreams and suppositions about what the character cares and doesn't care about.

Come to think of it, ME3 is a role-playing disaster.

Guess we just have differing views, as in the dreams sure I was chasing the kid but i always just saw that as symbolism for ALL that he hasa lost over the course of the games, thus why you hear dead companions voices in the background against the shadows of the damned as it were. 

Honestly I was glad shepard HAD more character to him to be honest, though I could have done with less AD.

But I dont consider ME3 anymore of a RP disaster than its predecessors, which to me is not at all, I still got to play MY particular shepard.

But any TRUE RPer will tell ya that the moment a character gets its own voice... its over man!   RP dreams dead!

[CommanderVyse]

Selene Moonsong wrote...

How about the last scene in Avatar?

Jake's Avatar eyes suddenly open... end of movie.

No different from the gasp of air, which sounds like a gasp for air rather that a dying gasp and gurgling release of air in death.

*Crude comment removed as not appropriate*

My god, you're right, they are the same.

Modifié par Selene Moonsong, 30 septembre 2012 - 12:43 .

[CommanderVyse]

Mcfly616 wrote...

as Zaeed so eloquently put it: "a stubborn enough person can survive just about anything. Rage is a hell of an anesthetic"

In that case, the BSN should be numb to all pain.

[Ticonderoga117]

Mcfly616 wrote...
correct. He survives. But the consequences of his choice are left completely up to interpretation....

Well that's a much better execution then.

And yes, rage is one helluva anastethic, but that doesn't stop blood loss.

[Ticonderoga117]

Sion1138 wrote...
I know what it says... But it's just crap. So I chose to control the Reapers but I'm not really controlling the Reapers?

Wow. 

Pretty much. If you really wanted to Control the Reapers... order the Catalyst around and say "I'm giving you a new solution, just like you wanted."

Which I would totally be for because then I could just order them to fly into a star and call it a day.

How it is now is just symbolism with no common sense, which is odd.

[Sundance31us]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Cainne Chapel wrote...
Books very few, but i've seen many TV shows and movies that did and were actually good.

A few examples please? I'm blanking on them and I want to look further into a few.

The Thing (1982)

Planet of the Apes (1968)

Edit: Fix link ( ) if it didn't work.

Modifié par Sundance31us, 29 septembre 2012 - 11:28 .

[Ticonderoga117]

Sundance31us wrote...
The Thing (1982)

Planet of the Apes (1968)

Edit: Fix link ( ) if it didn't work.

Ah, thanks. Never saw Planet of the Apes all the way through and forgot about The Thing.

I would say that The Thing is a much better example of this done right because that was the whole concept of the alien. No one knows, exactly, who it is at any time. Was it Admiral Anderson Childs or MacReady?

Planet of the Apes however, shows us the main character still being alive without leaving him in a dubious state. What he does later is left open, which is fine because we know he's still alive when the movie ends.

ME3 isn't a horror movie and in every case but one shows us what happened to Shepard, he died. So... eh. It just feels wrong to me to have that kind of thing in ME3.

[Sundance31us]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

I would say that The Thing is a much better example of this done right because that was the whole concept of the alien. No one knows, exactly, who it is at any time. Was it Admiral Anderson Childs or MacReady?

Keith David plays Childs in The Thing.

Found two more.

2001 A Space Odyssey (1968)

Dark Star (1974)

[Ticonderoga117]

Sundance31us wrote...
Keith David plays Childs in The Thing.

Found two more.

2001 A Space Odyssey (1968)

Dark Star (1974)

I know he plays Childs, thats why I put Admiral Anderson there first.

I thought 2001's ending was critized for not making a lick of sense and coming from left field?

Never heard of Dark Star so this will be interesting.

Thanks!

[CommanderVyse]

These examples from movies and television involve you watching a story unfold. The active participation of a video game should put the story in your hands.

As I type this, there is a button on the social network for my Muliplayer manifest. It says "Track Your Progress and Unlocks," with Your being emphasized in yellow. That's right Bioware, this is MY game, MY story, and MY actions should matter. If Shepard fails or dies, it should be MY fault, not because the Devs said so.

[Mcfly616]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...
correct. He survives. But the consequences of his choice are left completely up to interpretation....

Well that's a much better execution then.

And yes, rage is one helluva anastethic, but that doesn't stop blood loss.

while I disagree with you(because I believe Shepard lives).....It seems that what you're saying is that you would be fine with trade off of: knowing absolutely positively that the protagonist lives, but have the fate of the entire galaxy in question?




On a side-note, I've been thinking alot about the breathe scenes inclusion in the EC. I recall Mike Gamble going on the Retake site shortly before EC released, and he asked the fans if they believe in Indoc Theory. The results were overwhelmingly in favor of IT(maybe because people wanted anything but an extended version of the original endings? I'm not sure). Now I've been wondering if the results of the poll effected Biowares decision to keep the breathe scene in order to not upset those that still wish to believe IT. I'm thinking the scene may have been elaborated upon, maybe with Shepard standing up out of the rubble.....if only that poll had not been so lopsided.

(I can only speculate. I'm not blaming ITers or stating this as fact. Just wondering if it had an effect. Maybe they didn't want to alienate some fans)


I'm fine with the breathe scene because I know what they were getting at. Though I'd be all for a scene of Shep standing triumphantly out of the rubble and looking out over the Citadel and Earth.....anything more would be too much

[Selene Moonsong]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Selene Moonsong wrote...

How about the last scene in Avatar?

Jake's Avatar eyes suddenly open... end of movie.

No different from the gasp of air, which sounds like a gasp for air rather that a dying gasp and gurgling release of air in death.

Jake wasn't dying or badly injured while transferring.
Shepard has been by this time:
-Lasered by Harbinger causing tons of damage.
-Died and brought back by implants.
-Got exploded by the tube.
-Crushed by rubble.

This is not the same.

A successful transfer is not guaranteed, though his chances were better than Grace's: Jakes avatar eyes open sudddenly, that is the ending scene, nothing more is shown beyond that other than conhecture, this is no diffeerent that the gasp of air. In both cases it could go either way, but further hope for survival is also presented in the LI not placing the plaque on the memorial wall, Note that the gasp for air comes after the LI scene on the Normandy. 

Whether or not there is a planned sequal doesn't matter at this point. Besides, nothing has been stated by the Devs going forward from that point except that Shep's tale is over. 

Implants alone are not the sole reason Shep is brought back to life. Based on the opening scene before character creation, the suggestion is that multiple methods of restorations were being persued, including implants.

Not sure what you meant by 'exploded by the tube'. The closest thing to that is where Shep gets Joker stuffed into the pod and is shaken loose by a blast from the reaper ship. The only 'explosion' is the firing mechanism for the lifepod moments after Shep presses the button.

Had Shep been directly in Harbringer's beam, s/he would have been va[orized instantly, but already has experience dodging such attacks (Ranock reaper), so likely didn't get the full measure of the power of the beam, but definatly got singed pretty badly.

The scene where Shep gasps for air shows Shep lying on top of rubble, not crushed by it. The rubble large slab or pillar is also between Shep and the camera, Shep is not under it.

Modifié par Selene Moonsong, 30 septembre 2012 - 12:47 .

[CommanderVyse]

Mcfly616 wrote...

 while I disagree with you(because I believe Shepard lives).....It seems that what you're saying is that you would be fine with trade off of: knowing absolutely positively that the protagonist lives, but have the fate of the entire galaxy in question?

If Shepard lives the fate of the galaxy is not in question. I know that Shepard can save the galaxy.

[Obadiah]

Cainne Chapel wrote...

Honestly? I cant remember exact examples as its been a while since I've watched a LOT of my sci-fi and horror movies, I just mentioned it because I distinctly remember quite a few that just end. No explanation, no concern for what happens after, they just END with vague oh they survive or everything ends connotations.

In fact they dot hat quite a LOT in horror movies these days.

But as someone posted earlier, a lot of early sci fi didnt exactly end on high notes but rather depressing ones.

Twilight zone in particular i remember used to end a lot on "OMG...." moments. Same with Outer Limits

and I LOVED those shows, which is maybe why the ending didnt exactly ruin things for me

Films/Series that end abrubtly or end with nebulous outcomes:
* Deep Rising - Well... I liked that movie anyway
* Inception - That was AWESOME
* Battlestar Galactica Series - Some key plot resolutions could only be found on the forums after the fact, and the cycle's ending is open eneded.
* Predators - Yeah... they're *****.
* 2001: A Space Odessy - Did anyone even understand that ending or were they all just high?
* Ghost in the Shell - Ending is nebulous
* Rise of Planet of the Apes
* Beneath the Planet of the Apes - Or did the world actually get destroyed in that one?
* Supernova - Again, I think I'm the only person that liked that movie (universe pending doom in a century)
* Way of the Gun - Pretty sure they died, but I had an argument about this with someone.
* Spy Game - I'm pretty sure that will end badly for the two protagonists.
* Prometheus

Modifié par Obadiah, 30 septembre 2012 - 01:18 .

[CommanderVyse]

Obadiah wrote...

Cainne Chapel wrote...

Honestly? I cant remember exact examples as its been a while since I've watched a LOT of my sci-fi and horror movies, I just mentioned it because I distinctly remember quite a few that just end. No explanation, no concern for what happens after, they just END with vague oh they survive or everything ends connotations.

In fact they dot hat quite a LOT in horror movies these days.

But as someone posted earlier, a lot of early sci fi didnt exactly end on high notes but rather depressing ones.

Twilight zone in particular i remember used to end a lot on "OMG...." moments. Same with Outer Limits

and I LOVED those shows, which is maybe why the ending didnt exactly ruin things for me

Films/Series that end abrubtly or end with nebulous outcomes:
* Deep Rising - Well... I liked that movie anyway
* Inception - That was AWESOME
* Battlestar Galactica Series - Some key plot resolutions could only be found on the forums after the fact, and the cycle's ending is open eneded.
* Predators - Yeah... they're *****.
* 2001: A Space Odessy - Did anyone even understand that ending or were they all just high?
* Ghost in the Shell - Ending is nebulous
* Rise of Planet of the Apes
* Beneath the Planet of the Apes - Or did the world actually get destroyed in that one?
* Supernova - Again, I think I'm the only person that liked that movie (universe pending doom in a century)
* Way of the Gun - Pretty sure they died, but I had an argument about this with someone.
* Spy Game - I'm pretty sure that will end badly for the two protagonists.
* Prometheus

Normally, when a video game ends abruptly, the developers ran out of time/money. See KOTOR2 for example. Or perhaps we are still living in the 8-bit era and they ran out of memory. Either way, it isn't a good thing to strive for.

[The Spamming Troll]

butch cassidy and the sundance kid survived in their ending too.

right?

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 30 septembre 2012 - 02:00 .

[Obadiah]

wwinters99 wrote...
...
Normally, when a video game ends abruptly, the developers ran out of time/money. See KOTOR2 for example. Or perhaps we are still living in the 8-bit era and they ran out of memory. Either way, it isn't a good thing to strive for.

I would have to disagree - I don't think abrupt ending symbolize anything, and they can be quite appropriate.

However, ME3 does not end abruptly. Ih the original ending is there's the death scene, the explosion, the damage to Earth, the ship crashes, stargazer scene. Now, some people people may have wanted more, but that doesn't mean anything.

Modifié par Obadiah, 30 septembre 2012 - 02:05 .

[CommanderVyse]

Obadiah wrote...

wwinters99 wrote...
...
Normally, when a video game ends abruptly, the developers ran out of time/money. See KOTOR2 for example. Or perhaps we are still living in the 8-bit era and they ran out of memory. Either way, it isn't a good thing to strive for.

I would have to disagree - I don't think abrupt ending symbolize anything, and they can be quite appropriate.

However, ME3 does not end abruptly. Ih the original ending is there's the death scene, the explosion, the damage to Earth, the ship crashes, stargazer scene. Now, some people people may have wanted more, but that doesn't mean anything.

When I say abrupt I mean narrative-wise. The Mass Effect Trilogy ends during the run to the beam. Everything after is a new plot out of left field.

[Sundance31us]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

butch cassidy and the sundance kid survived in their ending too.

right?

152 Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid 1969 Ending

Probably not.

[CommanderVyse]

Sundance31us wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

butch cassidy and the sundance kid survived in their ending too.

right?

152 Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid 1969 Ending

Probably not.

Butch Cassidy was a real person and they never 100% confirmed his death. So the movie didn't either.

[Mcfly616]

wwinters99 wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

 while I disagree with you(because I believe Shepard lives).....It seems that what you're saying is that you would be fine with trade off of: knowing absolutely positively that the protagonist lives, but have the fate of the entire galaxy in question?

If Shepard lives the fate of the galaxy is not in question. I know that Shepard can save the galaxy.

ME3 = end of Shepard's story + galaxy saved.


Story has to end some time. No reason to drag it out.

[LazyTechGuy]

Mcfly616 wrote...

 ME3 = end of Shepard's story + galaxy saved.


Story has to end some time. No reason to drag it out.

Your version of "dragging it out" could be an emotional scene for someone else. And that was the whole point, right?  Different choices, different experiences.  For me, the Galaxy was secondary to the development of Shepard and his relationship with his friends. 

I certainly respect the people who are satisfied with the ending.  I just wish 10 more minutes were spent telling us what happened. What happened to the character I created.  I know, I know. It's implied. Kinda wanted more than a wink though. 

Shepard gets an entire monologue in the Control ending, but in Destroy we get a gasp and a "figure it out yourself".  

Modifié par LazyTechGuy, 30 septembre 2012 - 04:07 .

[Mcfly616]

LazyTechGuy wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

 ME3 = end of Shepard's story + galaxy saved.


Story has to end some time. No reason to drag it out.

Your version of "dragging it out" could be an emotional scene for someone else. And that was the whole point, right?  Different choices, different experiences.  For me, the Galaxy was secondary to the development of Shepard and his relationship with his friends. 

I certainly respect the people who are satisfied with the ending.  I just wish 10 more minutes were spent telling us what happened. What happened to the character I created.  I know, I know. It's implied. Kinda wanted more than a wink though. 

Shepard gets an entire monologue in the Control ending, but in Destroy we get a gasp and a "figure it out yourself".  

that's the whole point of the "Shepard Lives" ending. Bioware didn't want to tell you how your Shepard lived the rest of his life. Only you know that. It's absolutely fine if its not your type of ending. But it doesn't make it bad. I myself wouldn't want them to tell me how my Shepard lives his golden days. How would they know? My squad has already told.me what they plan to do if they survive the war. I saved the galaxy and gave them that future. All I need to know now is did I survive.....oh cool, I did. Off to that bar in Rio, then making some blue babies, enjoying retirement and splitting the royalties from the war vids with Garrus

It's fine if Shep has a monologue in Control. He's not exactly himself anymore, he's not exactly your Shepard....he's "something more" lol

In destroy he's alive and still himself

Modifié par Mcfly616, 30 septembre 2012 - 04:20 .