252 réponses à ce sujet

[Obadiah]

Sion1138 wrote...
...
Symbolism, however obvious, does not cut it. It might be enough for some people but not for others. By being a slight bit more direct you satisfy both these groups.

Shep is clearly still alive in high EMS Destroy, seeing him stand up or say something will not satisfy people.

More than likely, there would be even MORE calls for changes if the devs addd that.

[Chardonney]

Sion1138 wrote...

It would go a long way, trust me. We wouldn't have had half the amount of controversy had this simple scene been included.

Another problem with the little cinematic in Destroy is that it's impersonal. Everyone gets the same one.

They added an in-game cut-scene of your own Shepard walking triumphantly in the "Control" ending. Why not do the same for the destruction scenario?

Amen to that.

Modifié par Chardonney, 30 septembre 2012 - 03:19 .

[Davik Kang]

wwinters99 wrote...
The EC was not a Get out of Jail Free Card. Releasing free content does not absolve Bioware of all guilt.

Sion1138 wrote...
@Davik Kang

Firstly, you're ranting incoherently. Did I offend you somehow?

Secondly, I'm just discussing the ending, not asking anyone to change it. What's done is done.

Thirdly, adding to this one choice doesn't invalidate the other two. If you want to sacrifice your character to get a better result, because you are an altruistic individual and all that. The option is still there. 

And finally, common sense. It's simply a sensible thing to do to offer the possibility.

Chardonney wrote...
Wrong, not the endings, an ending, one of them. And if you wish to call it redoing, then go ahead but adding a clip or two to a one single ending choice, doesn't have to/wont change the other two ending choises in any way. Also, if you never choose the Destroy ending in your game, you wouldn't ever even see those few added clips anyway.

Look, guys.  I went through all of your points and made my own opinions against them.  If you're going to resort to this, making strawman arguments without reading what I said in full, taking points out of context and defeating them just to make yourself seem right and me wrong, then go ahead.  

I'm not saying anyone's wrong, I'm just saying that it's not your right to have BW change the endings to suit you.  You can ask them, of course.  But you're not entitled to an ending you think would be better.

All of the points you made in the above quotes, I've already covered in my previous responses.  If you just want cyclical arguments, go for it, but I'm not getting involved in them.

[Reorte]

Davik Kang wrote...

Look, guys.  I went through all of your points and made my own opinions against them.  If you're going to resort to this, making strawman arguments without reading what I said in full, taking points out of context and defeating them just to make yourself seem right and me wrong, then go ahead.  

I'm not saying anyone's wrong, I'm just saying that it's not your right to have BW change the endings to suit you.  You can ask them, of course.  But you're not entitled to an ending you think would be better.

All of the points you made in the above quotes, I've already covered in my previous responses.  If you just want cyclical arguments, go for it, but I'm not getting involved in them.

Bringing up the entitlement thing just makes you look silly especially in a thread like this where people are saying how they think it should've been done without even any suggestion of "Oi BW, go and change things!" Of course a lot of us would like them to improve on the dog's dinner they made, and they owe it to themselves and their creation to sort out the mess but who has said that they absolutely have to get it no matter what? They've just said what needs to be done if BioWare wants them to part with any money again and everyone is completely in their right to say "I'm not going to spend another penny on you unless you fix things." The ridiculous entitlement argument was always a strawman to distract from having to face the actual flaws.

[Chardonney]

Reorte wrote...

Davik Kang wrote...

Look, guys.  I went through all of your points and made my own opinions against them.  If you're going to resort to this, making strawman arguments without reading what I said in full, taking points out of context and defeating them just to make yourself seem right and me wrong, then go ahead.  

I'm not saying anyone's wrong, I'm just saying that it's not your right to have BW change the endings to suit you.  You can ask them, of course.  But you're not entitled to an ending you think would be better.

All of the points you made in the above quotes, I've already covered in my previous responses.  If you just want cyclical arguments, go for it, but I'm not getting involved in them.

Bringing up the entitlement thing just makes you look silly especially in a thread like this where people are saying how they think it should've been done without even any suggestion of "Oi BW, go and change things!" Of course a lot of us would like them to improve on the dog's dinner they made, and they owe it to themselves and their creation to sort out the mess but who has said that they absolutely have to get it no matter what? They've just said what needs to be done if BioWare wants them to part with any money again and everyone is completely in their right to say "I'm not going to spend another penny on you unless you fix things." The ridiculous entitlement argument was always a strawman to distract from having to face the actual flaws.

Very, very well said. 

[CommanderVyse]

I don't believe I am entitled to anything. I would gladly pay for additional endings.

[Obadiah]

Chardonney wrote...

Reorte wrote...

Davik Kang wrote...

Look, guys.  I went through all of your points and made my own opinions against them.  If you're going to resort to this, making strawman arguments without reading what I said in full, taking points out of context and defeating them just to make yourself seem right and me wrong, then go ahead.  

I'm not saying anyone's wrong, I'm just saying that it's not your right to have BW change the endings to suit you.  You can ask them, of course.  But you're not entitled to an ending you think would be better.

All of the points you made in the above quotes, I've already covered in my previous responses.  If you just want cyclical arguments, go for it, but I'm not getting involved in them.

Bringing up the entitlement thing just makes you look silly especially in a thread like this where people are saying how they think it should've been done without even any suggestion of "Oi BW, go and change things!" Of course a lot of us would like them to improve on the dog's dinner they made, and they owe it to themselves and their creation to sort out the mess but who has said that they absolutely have to get it no matter what? They've just said what needs to be done if BioWare wants them to part with any money again and everyone is completely in their right to say "I'm not going to spend another penny on you unless you fix things." The ridiculous entitlement argument was always a strawman to distract from having to face the actual flaws.

Very, very well said. 

People aren't just saying how the game could have been made better, they're saying "I got X, when I should have gotten Y." That's entitlement.

[Davik Kang]

Reorte wrote...
Bringing up the entitlement thing just makes you look silly especially in a thread like this where people are saying how they think it should've been done without even any suggestion of "Oi BW, go and change things!" Of course a lot of us would like them to improve on the dog's dinner they made, and they owe it to themselves and their creation to sort out the mess but who has said that they absolutely have to get it no matter what? They've just said what needs to be done if BioWare wants them to part with any money again and everyone is completely in their right to say "I'm not going to spend another penny on you unless you fix things." The ridiculous entitlement argument was always a strawman to distract from having to face the actual flaws.

Ok well if you're not demanding anything then I don't disagree with you.  People want different things.

However, "to improve on the dog's dinner they made, and they owe it to themselves and their creation to sort out the mess ".  You're presenting this as fact.  It's what you think, but not me.  Some people thought the endings are good.  Bioware don't owe it to themselves to change anything if they thought the endings were good.

And come on dude.  I'm not stripping everyone's argument to entitlement.  If you actually read my posts, I'm trying to make lots of points and justify them.  Not attack people.  I have addressed what you guys see as flaws, and some of them I agree with, others I don't.  You can call me silly, but I'd rather you actually looked at the points I'd made and drew your own conclusions about them.

If you just want this thread to be about how sucky the ending was, and don't want to hear some people's opinions on why they thought it was good and didn't need changing, well ok, but that's not really what forums are for.

Modifié par Davik Kang, 30 septembre 2012 - 04:05 .

[The Spamming Troll]

Sundance31us wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

butch cassidy and the sundance kid survived in their ending too.

right?

152 Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid 1969 Ending

Probably not.

speculations for all!!!

i was trying to point out someone could take any meaning from a scene ending by cutting to black.

i can agrue they survuved just like someone can argue that was shepards last breath in destroy.

[CaIIisto]

Obadiah wrote...

People aren't just saying how the game could have been made better, they're saying "I got X, when I should have gotten Y." That's entitlement.

Perhaps those people believed the advertising.....

[TheRealJayDee]

Bester76 wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

People aren't just saying how the game could have been made better, they're saying "I got X, when I should have gotten Y." That's entitlement.

Perhaps those people believed the advertising.....

Oh, you...! If there's anything I learned from ME3 it's that if you are disappointed and angry because something really isn't anything like it was described prior to release... well, you're stupid to ever have believed it in the first place. It's marketing, it's PR. Taking it seriously makes you a doofus.




Or at least that's what I've been told on a regular basis by some people here on the BSN...

[CaIIisto]

TheRealJayDee wrote...

Oh, you...! If there's anything I learned from ME3 it's that if you are disappointed and angry because something really isn't anything like it was described prior to release... well, you're stupid to ever have believed it in the first place. It's marketing, it's PR. Taking it seriously makes you a doofus.

Or at least that's what I've been told on a regular basis by some people here on the BSN...

If there's anything I've learned, it's that BW work from a different dictionary to everyone else. 

[Obadiah]

Bester76 wrote...

TheRealJayDee wrote...

Oh, you...! If there's anything I learned from ME3 it's that if you are disappointed and angry because something really isn't anything like it was described prior to release... well, you're stupid to ever have believed it in the first place. It's marketing, it's PR. Taking it seriously makes you a doofus.

Or at least that's what I've been told on a regular basis by some people here on the BSN...

If there's anything I've learned, it's that BW work from a different dictionary to everyone else. 

Yeah great... now we're back to the "I don't like this game" and "they lied" argument. Guess the "closure" discussion is over?

The game is an end-cap to two of the biggest major conflicts running in the ME history (Genophage and Quarian/Geth conflict), Shepard ends the Reaper threat, and depictions of the squadmates and 1000 years of post-choice imagery is provided by the EC.

But it still wasn't personal enough and some needed to see Shep walk or something after Destory so it was false advertising (or "not good", or "not good enough", or "had room for improvement").

Got it.

Modifié par Obadiah, 30 septembre 2012 - 05:37 .

[Iakus]

Mcfly616 wrote...

The only thing I wouldn't mind being added is seeing my Shepard stand up out of the rubble(like ME1) with that cocky smirk on his face. Anything more than that, and its just too much. I already know what my crew plans on doing after the war. No need for a Return of the King epilogue. I know how my Shepard lives his life. And only you know how your Shepard would live his life. I don't want Bioware showing me a picture of my Shepard telling me how he lived. And I don't think they wanted to do that either.

I'm not asking for more than that.  I have, in fact asked fro less than that if it would be easier to accomlish!  A rescue tema findin SHepard and determining that he/she is still breathing.  Or the Normandy receiving a transmisson from Earth as tehy hesitate to add Shepard's name to the wall.  

And yes, Shepard standing up and grinning like in ME1 would be awesome!

But after the awful chocie we have to make with teh Catalyst, I don't want a "ray of hope" I want certainty.  I think, having played the entire trilogy from the start, I earned that much

[Mcfly616]

Reorte wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

 I'm fine with how it is now lol why in the world would I want a "few lines of text"? I have a "rational" mind and I perfectly understand what the scene is suggesting, therefore I have no doubts in the back of my mind.

They didn't show the breathe scene just to reiterate that he's dead. They didn't have your L.I. refuse to put your name on the memorial wall and look hopefully to the sky for no reason. Hmm I wonder where the Normandy is going....maybe on an intergalactic safari. Nope. All of it was intentionally directed to signify the fact that Shepard lives on. That's just common sense.

The only thing I wouldn't mind being added is seeing my Shepard stand up out of the rubble(like ME1) with that cocky smirk on his face. Anything more than that, and its just too much. I already know what my crew plans on doing after the war. No need for a Return of the King epilogue. I know how my Shepard lives his life. And only you know how your Shepard would live his life. I don't want Bioware showing me a picture of my Shepard telling me how he lived. And I don't think they wanted to do that either.

You're saying that it relies on exactly the sort of things that it shouldn't need to rely on, i.e. considering out-of-game facts such as the intention of the writers for putting that scene in. If it wouldn't leave you certain in real life it shouldn't in-game either, and the reasons for your certainty involve breaking suspension of disbelief (the "let's try to forget about reality and make this our reality for some time" part of immersion). My point about a rational, enquiring mind is that such a mind will generally not simply take things at face value and always be looking for problems which suggest that things aren't as good as they seem. That should be very obvious to people who write games (admittedly they aren't the same people as the ones writing the script) because by not having such a mindset all sorts of bugs creep in. There's a whole world between probably OK and definitely OK and all we got was probably, especially when there's nothing to suggest more than wishful thinking on the LI's part either.

The point about a bit of text was that it's at about the same level of effort. It contains the required information but is hardly rewarding.

As I've said in other posts I've no desire at all to have the rest of my Shepard's life spelled out for me. That's another story, well beyond the scope of the Mass Effect trilogy. But what we've got will always leave a nagging doubt at the back of my mind that he may not have a rest of his life, seeing as there's only second-guessing authorial intent and wishful thinking to confirm there's one even though I'm 99% sure he's not dead.

no....wrong again.

let me guess....you need it spelled out for you very slowly? I am not relying on ajything out of game to understand the ending. I simply stated the intent was clear. That means the point gets across on screen. The specific scenes signify his survival. It's quite obvious. Stop putting words in my mouth and/or trying to assume you know my understanding of things. Continue in with your own "doubts". I for one understand the definition of symbolism and know it when i see it right on my tv screen. Lol don't think too hard about it though

[Mcfly616]

iakus wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

The only thing I wouldn't mind being added is seeing my Shepard stand up out of the rubble(like ME1) with that cocky smirk on his face. Anything more than that, and its just too much. I already know what my crew plans on doing after the war. No need for a Return of the King epilogue. I know how my Shepard lives his life. And only you know how your Shepard would live his life. I don't want Bioware showing me a picture of my Shepard telling me how he lived. And I don't think they wanted to do that either.

I'm not asking for more than that.  I have, in fact asked fro less than that if it would be easier to accomlish!  A rescue tema findin SHepard and determining that he/she is still breathing.  Or the Normandy receiving a transmisson from Earth as tehy hesitate to add Shepard's name to the wall.  

And yes, Shepard standing up and grinning like in ME1 would be awesome!

But after the awful chocie we have to make with teh Catalyst, I don't want a "ray of hope" I want certainty.  I think, having played the entire trilogy from the start, I earned that much

I liked the choice. And I am certain.

[CaIIisto]

Obadiah wrote...

Yeah great... now we're back to the "I don't like this game" and "they lied" argument. Guess the "closure" discussion is over?

The game is an end-cap to two of the biggest major conflicts running in the ME history (Genophage and Quarian/Geth conflict), Shepard ends the Reaper threat, and depictions of the squadmates and 1000 years of post-choice imagery is provided by the EC.

But it still wasn't personal enough and some needed to see Shep walk or something after Destory so it was false advertising (or "not good", or "not good enough", or "had room for improvement").

Got it.

I'm just glad that I killed the Rachni Queen in ME1, wouldn't have wanted her turning up in ME3. Oh.....

Also, really glad that I chose Anderson to represent Humans on the council as I didn't trust Udina. Just think what he might have gotten up to. Oh.....

Still, good job I blew that Collector base up, wouldn't want  Cerberus getting their hands on any part of that Human Reaper. Oh.....

Interactive storytelling at its very finest.

Modifié par Bester76, 30 septembre 2012 - 06:22 .

[Davik Kang]

Bester76 wrote...

I'm just glad that I killed the Rachni Queen in ME1, wouldn't have wanted her turning up in ME3. Oh.....

Also, really glad that I chose Anderson to represent Humans on the council as I didn't trust Udina. Just think what he might have gotten up to. Oh.....

Still, good job I blew that Collector base up, wouldn't want  Cerberus getting their hands on any part of that Human Reaper. Oh.....

Interactive storytelling at its very finest.

See! You did it again!  Criticising ME3 as a whole and not the ending!

[CaIIisto]

Davik Kang wrote...

See! You did it again!  Criticising ME3 as a whole and not the ending!

I said I adored 'most' parts of ME3, and I do. Apologies if that confuses you.

[Iakus]

Mcfly616 wrote...

iakus wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

The only thing I wouldn't mind being added is seeing my Shepard stand up out of the rubble(like ME1) with that cocky smirk on his face. Anything more than that, and its just too much. I already know what my crew plans on doing after the war. No need for a Return of the King epilogue. I know how my Shepard lives his life. And only you know how your Shepard would live his life. I don't want Bioware showing me a picture of my Shepard telling me how he lived. And I don't think they wanted to do that either.

I'm not asking for more than that.  I have, in fact asked fro less than that if it would be easier to accomlish!  A rescue tema findin SHepard and determining that he/she is still breathing.  Or the Normandy receiving a transmisson from Earth as tehy hesitate to add Shepard's name to the wall.  

And yes, Shepard standing up and grinning like in ME1 would be awesome!

But after the awful chocie we have to make with teh Catalyst, I don't want a "ray of hope" I want certainty.  I think, having played the entire trilogy from the start, I earned that much

I liked the choice. And I am certain.

I hated the war crimes choices.  And having my last image of Shepard being alone, injured, possibly dying, only magnifies the disgust I have for these endings.

[Davik Kang]

Bester76 wrote...
I said I adored 'most' parts of ME3, and I do. Apologies if that confuses you.

Ok sorry I will cease this childishness.

No fiancé for me... *weeps* / *small_violin.mpeg*

[Obadiah]

Bester76 wrote...
...
I'm just glad that I killed the Rachni Queen in ME1, wouldn't have wanted her turning up in ME3. Oh.....

Also, really glad that I chose Anderson to represent Humans on the council as I didn't trust Udina. Just think what he might have gotten up to. Oh.....

Still, good job I blew that Collector base up, wouldn't want  Cerberus getting their hands on any part of that Human Reaper. Oh.....

Interactive storytelling at its very finest.

Right, it's not enough that the Genophage resolution hinges on choices made in the previous 2 games, or that the Geth/Quarian war resolution hinges on choices made in ME2, or the existence of a constructive Rachni race hinges on the queen's survival in ME1 - the devs needed to take THOSE choices you listed into account as well.

So I guess you don't have anything to add on closure and we are back to general ad-hoc criticism of the game.

Awesome.

[TNT1991]

Just putting my two cents in but, it's not like I hate the breath scene (okay, I do hate it...I hate it very much). 

Yes. Yes, I understand Shepard is alive (however, getting the devs to admit it is another story) and the Normandy will find him/her. But ending Destroy on a simple, lazy "breath" cliff hanger scene? Really? I could of thought of a better scene than that, and it doesn't have to have an Li reunion. 

For example: Shepard gets up--wounded from the blast of course. Grabs the pistol he/she had when shooting the tube. Walks over some debris. Close up on Shepard's face--in surprise or shock. Then, shows a dead reaper infront of Shepard  while epic music plays. Cuts to credits.  

With something like this, we get to see Shepard's face, a dead reaper, and a little sense of accomplishment. 

That would of been enough for me, at least.

[CaIIisto]

Obadiah wrote...

Right, it's not enough that the Genophage resolution hinges on choices made in the previous 2 games, or that the Geth/Quarian war resolution hinges on choices made in ME2, or the existence of a constructive Rachni race hinges on the queen's survival in ME1 - the devs needed to take THOSE choices you listed into account as well.

So I guess you don't have anything to add on closure and we are back to general ad-hoc criticism of the game.

Awesome.

The only two real variables that matter from previous games come to fruition on Tuchanka and Rannoch. Unsuprisingly, these are probably the best two parts of the game. 

The Rachni - a copout. The only downside to killing the Queen in ME1 is an offscreen reduction in your war assets. It doesn't prevent the Reapers from gaining access to Ravagers, at all.

Alternatively, having Anderson on the council rather than Udina would have severely hindered Cerberus' coup attempt on the Citadel. Udina wasn't even indoctrinated. Luckily, Udina had his plot armour with him.

However, you are correct - this is a 'closure' thread, so I'll refrain from going over that argument further.