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[Lotion Soronarr]

It caused nothing but pain and suffering so far.
What a great tool indeed.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Drinking blood mixed with a bit of lyrium isn't blood magic.

There's nothing magical about drinking blood/poison.

Avernus's research at Warden's Vigil seems to imply otherwise.  As do the Architect's experiments on Wardens during Awakening and its novel tie-in.  The Joining imparts the Warden with special powers and changes Warden blood so it has particularly useful properties.  You can even use some of those properties to extend life and grant extra powers with Avernus's stuff, and it turns up again in DA2. 

Sure the act of drinking the stuff has to do with being able to swallow poison, but the effect is definitely magical, and probably blood magic.

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 02 octobre 2012 - 10:58 .

[Auintus]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

It caused nothing but pain and suffering so far.
What a great tool indeed.

Pain and suffering to darkspawn maybe.
It's a fantastic tool in the right hands. No sane man hands a three-year-old a loaded pistol.

[LobselVith8]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I've long maintained that Demons are the quickest way to learn blood magic -- due to the Chantry banning such practices and more then likely burning tomes on the subject -- but Demons are not the only way to learn it.

Anders asks Merrill if she learned Blood Magic just by cutting herself and finding an extra source of power. But I think Fenris says each and every blood mage has to cut a demon's deal.  

I played a blood mage in DA2 and headcanoned that she'd learned blood magic without a demon's assistance, slowly and over years of practice and hard work.  I think your theory makes a lot of sense, but we just don't have consistent information from the games themselves.

I believe that was Anders who said you have to face a demon and accept the arrangement, but he seems to be addressing the most typical method of learning blood magic. The Orlesian Warden can ask the Baroness to teach him blood magic (at a time he believes her to simply be another mage), so demons aren't the only source. There are also the scholars who believe the Arlathan elves taught humanity blood magic.

[Arokel]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

It caused nothing but pain and suffering so far.
What a great tool indeed.

I'm not a fan of blood magic but I can see possible good uses for it. 

For example it may have healing potential that, due to the Chantry's ban, has never been fully explored.  Blood transfusions is the most obvious application I can think of.

[Vandicus]

Arokel wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

It caused nothing but pain and suffering so far.
What a great tool indeed.

I'm not a fan of blood magic but I can see possible good uses for it. 

For example it may have healing potential that, due to the Chantry's ban, has never been fully explored.  Blood transfusions is the most obvious application I can think of.

The Cardinal rules of magic codex would imply that any healing short of bringing back the dead is already possible without blood magic.

[Arokel]

Vandicus wrote...

Arokel wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

It caused nothing but pain and suffering so far.
What a great tool indeed.

I'm not a fan of blood magic but I can see possible good uses for it. 

For example it may have healing potential that, due to the Chantry's ban, has never been fully explored.  Blood transfusions is the most obvious application I can think of.

The Cardinal rules of magic codex would imply that any healing short of bringing back the dead is already possible without blood magic.

Good point.  Only thing I  remembered from that codex was no telelporting 

[Vandicus]

Arokel wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Arokel wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

It caused nothing but pain and suffering so far.
What a great tool indeed.

I'm not a fan of blood magic but I can see possible good uses for it. 

For example it may have healing potential that, due to the Chantry's ban, has never been fully explored.  Blood transfusions is the most obvious application I can think of.

The Cardinal rules of magic codex would imply that any healing short of bringing back the dead is already possible without blood magic.

Good point.  Only thing I  remembered from that codex was no telelporting 

That's probably because the other two rules have already been broken. 

[iheartbob]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Drinking blood mixed with a bit of lyrium isn't blood magic.

There's nothing magical about drinking blood/poison.

Avernus's research at Warden's Vigil seems to imply otherwise.  As do the Architect's experiments on Wardens during Awakening and its novel tie-in.  The Joining imparts the Warden with special powers and changes Warden blood so it has particularly useful properties.  You can even use some of those properties to extend life and grant extra powers with Avernus's stuff, and it turns up again in DA2. 

Sure the act of drinking the stuff has to do with being able to swallow poison, but the effect is definitely magical, and probably blood magic.

I would definitely argue that the joining ritual is a form of blood magic.  Anything that uses blood to augment a power is a form of blood magic.  What is the joining if not that?

As for blood magic being evil, again I will argue it is all in how you use it.

When I play a blood mage I only ever use my own blood to fuel spells, I never use an ally for it. 

But I definitely agree there should be consequences.  I really like the idea of fending off demons.  The only way to unlock blood magic in DA:O was to sell a child's soul to a demon, which was pretty sinister.  It'd be cool to have the option of having your blood magic further augmented partway through the campaign if you end up making a deal with a demon (given a higher health pool or a a powerful spell exclusive to those who choose to accept the deal?) Then your character would have to struggle with the morality of the issue.

[KainD]

iheartbob wrote...
The only way to unlock blood magic in DA:O was to sell a child's soul to a demon, which was pretty sinister.  

Actually another way was just being a badass - the  Intimidation option. 

The conversation basically went like:

Demon: I will reward you if you will leave the kid to me.
PC: No you will leave the kid alone.
Demon: Ok I will be going then..
PC: No, you will reward me, and then go, or else..
Demon: ok...

And then you can ask to learn blood magic. 

[iheartbob]

KainD wrote...

iheartbob wrote...
The only way to unlock blood magic in DA:O was to sell a child's soul to a demon, which was pretty sinister.  

Actually another way was just being a badass - the  Intimidation option. 

The conversation basically went like:

Demon: I will reward you if you will leave the kid to me.
PC: No you will leave the kid alone.
Demon: Ok I will be going then..
PC: No, you will reward me, and then go, or else..
Demon: ok...

And then you can ask to learn blood magic. 

Srsly? 

I wish I knew of that option!  I would have fit my character's personality so perfectly.

I'm guessing it requires a high coercion level to accomlish?

[KainD]

iheartbob wrote...

I'm guessing it requires a high coercion level to accomlish?

Yes of course. 

[TEWR]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Drinking blood mixed with a bit of lyrium isn't blood magic.

There's nothing magical about drinking blood/poison.

*buzzer noise*

Wrong! So sorry, try again next time and you might just win that new car!

Avernus' research using blood magic on the Taint allowed him to extend his lifespan beyond the normal 30 years a Warden usually lives for. He lived for 2 centuries, and was still kicking. His research into the Taint also allowed him to utilize the untapped power present in it and weaponize it.

Just as much, the codex entry on Dragon Cults says that the Reavers ritually prepare blood and drink it, and that the drinking and the results afterwards are a definite example of blood magic. The own Reaver specializations blurb says that it's a ritualistically prepared drink using dragon's blood.

The same thing applies to the Warden Joining. It too is a ritualistically prepared drink using Darkspawn blood and provides changes to the drinker, should they survive.

Because the Reaver Joining is labeled as blood magic in-game and both Joinings follow the same procedure of creation -- but use different sources of blood -- they are, without a doubt, a form of blood magic.

Blood magic is about two things: Using blood to power spells and gaining abilities through blood. The Joinings follow the latter criteria.

[Vandicus]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Drinking blood mixed with a bit of lyrium isn't blood magic.

There's nothing magical about drinking blood/poison.

*buzzer noise*

Wrong! So sorry, try again next time and you might just win that new car!

Avernus' research using blood magic on the Taint allowed him to extend his lifespan beyond the normal 30 years a Warden usually lives for. He lived for 2 centuries, and was still kicking. His research into the Taint also allowed him to utilize the untapped power present in it and weaponize it.

Just as much, the codex entry on Dragon Cults says that the Reavers ritually prepare blood and drink it, and that the drinking and the results afterwards are a definite example of blood magic. The own Reaver specializations blurb says that it's a ritualistically prepared drink using dragon's blood.

The same thing applies to the Warden Joining. It too is a ritualistically prepared drink using Darkspawn blood and provides changes to the drinker, should they survive.

Because the Reaver Joining is labeled as blood magic in-game and both Joinings follow the same procedure of creation -- but use different sources of blood -- they are, without a doubt, a form of blood magic.

Blood magic is about two things: Using blood to power spells and gaining abilities through blood. The Joinings follow the latter criteria.

Going to go ahead and point out that Wardens are implied to be naturally immortal in the age category. Wardens gradually transform into ghouls, which are a form of darkspawn. Darkspawn, as we know, don't die of old age. Avernus's research allowed him to resist further progression into the Taint, but its highly likely that it was not the source of his agelessness. The Architect's warden friend Utha is another example of an apparently ageless Warden.

[TEWR]

Vandicus wrote...

which are a form of darkspawn.

Ghouls aren't a form of Darkspawn. People have made the same assumption before, and David Gaider has told them that Darkspawn are only made from a Broodmother -- it being a Ghoul.

Ghouls aren't Darkspawn.

Other then that though, you're correct on everything else.

[Vandicus]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

which are a form of darkspawn.

Ghouls aren't a form of Darkspawn. People have made the same assumption before, and David Gaider has told them that Darkspawn are only made from a Broodmother -- it being a Ghoul.

Ghouls aren't Darkspawn.

Other then that though, you're correct on everything else.

Wasn't aware of that. That leads to some interesting questions. Since the Taint only makes one into a ghoul and not a true darkspawn, something truly unheard of must've happened with the Magisters in the Black City.

*EDIT

I'd previously been operating under the assumption that the Magisters were simply tainted humans.

Modifié par Vandicus, 03 octobre 2012 - 05:00 .

[TEWR]

Yeah, it is interesting how the Magisters' invasion of the City -- Black, Golden, or Purple with Pink Elephants everywhere -- turned them into actual Darkspawn as opposed to just Ghouls. It leads to more questions then one would think.

[Fast Jimmy]

Well, it could stand to reason that there were female Magisters in their trip to the City of the Fade. Because then they would become ghouls, which would become broodmothers... which would begin the cycle.


I'm sure this is the case, but do we know if darkspawn of opposite races make other races' broodmothers?

That is to say... would Hurlocks try and capture a female Qunari? Or a female elven? And, if so, would they try and "turn" her into a broodmother? Again... I'm sure this is the case, but they never really went into much details of who was doing what, only that it was darkspawn doing it.

[Ahglock]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

sunnydxmen wrote...

The corruption of blood magic is a slow porcess. the more use it the more corrupt and more likely to go insane an be evil you become, so merrill could still turn evil if she keep using it.

I see Blood Magic as being in the same vein as Necromancy from WOW an inherently dark power that while it can be used for good it will ultimately corrupt the user.

You can see al you wan but your simply not correct.

Really I'd love to see how I'm not.

People on both sides of this argument like to cherry pick quotes/events from the game.  IMO blood magic is fairly clearly on the corrupt turn to evil side, but there are points where they phrase it as just a tool or just another school of magic. Still pretty much everyone without plot armor goes down the dark side either chaotic evil solos or lawful evil telvanis, but dark side.

Honestly though given the setting and how all mages have a connection to the fade and demons can and will try to corrupt you from there I would not trust a mage in general.  While blood magic may be worse, in that it goes demonic corruption almost 100% of the time and its powers are harder to deal with(mind control) all magic is something I wouldn't trust.  I am a mage player in pretty much every game it is an option, yet on a logical level I'd keep an eye on all mages and I'd kill any blood mages.  

[Sable Rhapsody]

Ahglock wrote...
Still pretty much everyone without plot armor goes down the dark side either chaotic evil solos or lawful evil telvanis, but dark side.

Gotta add the PCs of both games to that list too   It seems to take an extraordinary amount of willpower on the part of the blood mage to keep from going completely ape**** and mesing everything up.  It may be a chicken-and-the-egg sort of problem--does blood magic cause people to go nuts, or are only crazy and desperate people drawn to using it?

[JSB93]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Well, it could stand to reason that there were female Magisters in their trip to the City of the Fade. Because then they would become ghouls, which would become broodmothers... which would begin the cycle.


I'm sure this is the case, but do we know if darkspawn of opposite races make other races' broodmothers?

That is to say... would Hurlocks try and capture a female Qunari? Or a female elven? And, if so, would they try and "turn" her into a broodmother? Again... I'm sure this is the case, but they never really went into much details of who was doing what, only that it was darkspawn doing it.

I think it's the taint that matters, not the type of darkspawn. I doubt the ogres help when changing a kossith female.

[Urzon]

JSB93 wrote...

I think it's the taint that matters, not the type of darkspawn. I doubt the ogres help when changing a kossith female.

That's what i'm thinking as well. It doesn't matter which darkspawn does the... corrupting of the females, because it's the Taint itself that provides the other half of genetic material to fertilize the broodmother's eggs. So while ghouls are only infected with the Taint, the darkspawn themselves are literaly made of it.

It's very fascinating.... if you can get over the threat it poses to Thedas as a whole.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Drinking blood mixed with a bit of lyrium isn't blood magic.

There's nothing magical about drinking blood/poison.

Avernus's research at Warden's Vigil seems to imply otherwise.  As do the Architect's experiments on Wardens during Awakening and its novel tie-in.  The Joining imparts the Warden with special powers and changes Warden blood so it has particularly useful properties.  You can even use some of those properties to extend life and grant extra powers with Avernus's stuff, and it turns up again in DA2. 

Sure the act of drinking the stuff has to do with being able to swallow poison, but the effect is definitely magical, and probably blood magic.

Avernuses research and the joning are not the same thing.

Avenrus tried manipulating heh taint inside the Grey Warden by using blood magic.
As to the joining itself being blood magic. Nope. Being strong enough to resist poison and developing a strong resistance is not magic.

[Lotion Soronarr]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Drinking blood mixed with a bit of lyrium isn't blood magic.

There's nothing magical about drinking blood/poison.

*buzzer noise*

Wrong! So sorry, try again next time and you might just win that new car!

*double buzzer noise*

Double wrong. Congratulation. You win nothing.

Because the Reaver Joining is labeled as blood magic in-game and both Joinings follow the same procedure of creation -- but use different sources of blood -- they are, without a doubt, a form of blood magic.

Really? Because I doubt. I doubt a lot.
Two different rituals and you automaticly assume they are exactly the same?

[TEWR]

Two different rituals and you automaticly assume they are exactly the same?

Yes. Because they operate under the same exact criteria. Blood is gathered, ritualistically prepared, drunk by the participants, and this results in changes in the body of the participant.

Also, both of them have the same sort of weird, eerie whispering after the Warden drinks it. Some chalk that up to just being a sound file rehashed. Me? Well since both Joinings are connected to Dragons -- Old Gods for the Wardens, regular High Dragons for the Reavers -- I think it's not just a coincidence.

So yeah... kinda hard to say it's not blood magic and not be trying to ignore facts.