2177 réponses à ce sujet

[Sable Rhapsody]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Avenrus tried manipulating heh taint inside the Grey Warden by using blood magic.
As to the joining itself being blood magic. Nope. Being strong enough to resist poison and developing a strong resistance is not magic.

The actual act of gulping down the stuff is a physical one, but the EFFECT of the Joining is undeniably a magical one.  If it was as simple as poison resistance, anyone exposed to darkspawn blood would have a chance of developing resistance and becoming a Warden.  It's not that simple.  What's the lyrium in there for if not magic?  And why use the blood of the Archdemon itself, which is clearly magical and unique in its body-hopping properties, and not just the taint from any old darkspawn?  

If you want to see the Grey Wardens as heroes who would never touch blood magic (Avernus excepted), that's your right.  But the Wardens in-game are ruthless enough in their pursuit of the darkspawn to use just about anything.  The Legacy DLC proved that.  There was even a cut option to recruit Jowan, a known blood mage.

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 03 octobre 2012 - 09:57 .

[Cultist]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

It caused nothing but pain and suffering so far.
What a great tool indeed.

It caused creation of the biggest human Empire on Thedas.

[DKJaigen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Drinking blood mixed with a bit of lyrium isn't blood magic.

There's nothing magical about drinking blood/poison.

Avernus's research at Warden's Vigil seems to imply otherwise.  As do the Architect's experiments on Wardens during Awakening and its novel tie-in.  The Joining imparts the Warden with special powers and changes Warden blood so it has particularly useful properties.  You can even use some of those properties to extend life and grant extra powers with Avernus's stuff, and it turns up again in DA2. 

Sure the act of drinking the stuff has to do with being able to swallow poison, but the effect is definitely magical, and probably blood magic.

Avernuses research and the joning are not the same thing.

Avenrus tried manipulating heh taint inside the Grey Warden by using blood magic.
As to the joining itself being blood magic. Nope. Being strong enough to resist poison and developing a strong resistance is not magic.

Its confirmed in lore and by DG so stop ****ing about it. the warden joining ritual is a form of bloodmagic. phylacterys are also a form of bloodmagic so templars also use bloodmagic.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Two different rituals and you automaticly assume they are exactly the same?

Yes. Because they operate under the same exact criteria. Blood is gathered, ritualistically prepared, drunk by the participants, and this results in changes in the body of the participant.

Also, both of them have the same sort of weird, eerie whispering after the Warden drinks it. Some chalk that up to just being a sound file rehashed. Me? Well since both Joinings are connected to Dragons -- Old Gods for the Wardens, regular High Dragons for the Reavers -- I think it's not just a coincidence.

So yeah... kinda hard to say it's not blood magic and not be trying to ignore facts.

How does "rituallistically prepared" constitute any sort of magic? A ritual does not neccesarily mean magic is involved, especially not when it is a dragon cult doing the preparation. More likely the rituals involed are of a "worship-category". Besides, neither are definitively blood magic, but certainly in the grey area. Just like Finn's spell in Cadash Thaig. While blood is involved, it doesn't power the spell.

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Two different rituals and you automaticly assume they are exactly the same?

Yes. Because they operate under the same exact criteria. Blood is gathered, ritualistically prepared, drunk by the participants, and this results in changes in the body of the participant.

Also, both of them have the same sort of weird, eerie whispering after the Warden drinks it. Some chalk that up to just being a sound file rehashed. Me? Well since both Joinings are connected to Dragons -- Old Gods for the Wardens, regular High Dragons for the Reavers -- I think it's not just a coincidence.

So yeah... kinda hard to say it's not blood magic and not be trying to ignore facts.

How does "rituallistically prepared" constitute any sort of magic? A ritual does not neccesarily mean magic is involved, especially not when it is a dragon cult doing the preparation. More likely the rituals involed are of a "worship-category". Besides, neither are definitively blood magic, but certainly in the grey area. Just like Finn's spell in Cadash Thaig. While blood is involved, it doesn't power the spell.

You need a mage to prepare the blood. So yes it is magic. 

Modifié par DKJaigen, 03 octobre 2012 - 10:46 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

I was refering to the Reaver ritual. But yes, you need a mage to prepare the Joinning, but the joinning includes Lyrium, which it wouldn't, if it were truly blood magic.

[General User]

If a spell involves blood but that blood doesn't actually power said spell, wouldn't that be, as Finn said, "a grey area."

Modifié par General User, 03 octobre 2012 - 10:50 .

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I was refering to the Reaver ritual. But yes, you need a mage to prepare the Joinning, but the joinning includes Lyrium, which it wouldn't, if it were truly blood magic.

And lyrium and bloodmagic can never ever be mixed? I fact the magisters that enterd the goldenm city both used lyrium and bloodmagic. So in short your explanation makes no sense at all.

[EmperorSahlertz]

General User wrote...

If a spell involves blood but that blood doesn't actually power said spell, wouldn't that be, as Finn said, "a grey area."

Exactly, it would be enough for some, ignorant of the principles of blood magic, to flag the spell as blood magic. But for a learned eye, it wouldn't be blood magic.

[DKJaigen]

General User wrote...

If a spell involves blood but that blood doesn't actually power said spell, wouldn't that be, as Finn said, "a grey area."

Difficult to say because we have no knowledge what the creation of the blood entails

[EmperorSahlertz]

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I was refering to the Reaver ritual. But yes, you need a mage to prepare the Joinning, but the joinning includes Lyrium, which it wouldn't, if it were truly blood magic.

And lyrium and bloodmagic can never ever be mixed? I fact the magisters that enterd the goldenm city both used lyrium and bloodmagic. So in short your explanation makes no sense at all.

They also used thousands of slaves to power their spells. The reason they used both together was because of the sheer power their spells required. I doubt that the Joinning is in the league of "tearing holes in the veil" spells, so in the case of "small" spells, they aren't going to be mixed.

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

General User wrote...

If a spell involves blood but that blood doesn't actually power said spell, wouldn't that be, as Finn said, "a grey area."

Exactly, it would be enough for some, ignorant of the principles of blood magic, to flag the spell as blood magic. But for a learned eye, it wouldn't be blood magic.

Nice and all but DG already said the joining is bloodmagic

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I was refering to the Reaver ritual. But yes, you need a mage to prepare the Joinning, but the joinning includes Lyrium, which it wouldn't, if it were truly blood magic.

And lyrium and bloodmagic can never ever be mixed? I fact the magisters that enterd the goldenm city both used lyrium and bloodmagic. So in short your explanation makes no sense at all.

They also used thousands of slaves to power their spells. The reason they used both together was because of the sheer power their spells required. I doubt that the Joinning is in the league of "tearing holes in the veil" spells, so in the case of "small" spells, they aren't going to be mixed.

I dont deal in speculation

[EmperorSahlertz]

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

General User wrote...

If a spell involves blood but that blood doesn't actually power said spell, wouldn't that be, as Finn said, "a grey area."

Exactly, it would be enough for some, ignorant of the principles of blood magic, to flag the spell as blood magic. But for a learned eye, it wouldn't be blood magic.

Nice and all but DG already said the joining is bloodmagic

All he ever said about the joinning was that it could be viewed as blood magic. The only thing he said was definitely blood magic, was phylacteries.

[Vandicus]

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I was refering to the Reaver ritual. But yes, you need a mage to prepare the Joinning, but the joinning includes Lyrium, which it wouldn't, if it were truly blood magic.

And lyrium and bloodmagic can never ever be mixed? I fact the magisters that enterd the goldenm city both used lyrium and bloodmagic. So in short your explanation makes no sense at all.

They also used thousands of slaves to power their spells. The reason they used both together was because of the sheer power their spells required. I doubt that the Joinning is in the league of "tearing holes in the veil" spells, so in the case of "small" spells, they aren't going to be mixed.

I dont deal in speculation

Its ultimately irrelevant whether certain uses fall under blood magic or not. Simply using blood to power spells for example is not inherently dangerous to the extent that mind control powers are. If a mage learned how to do one and not the other, they would simply be a powerful mage in the traditional sense, akin to a mage with lots of lyrium. Its apparent from the story of Avernus that full fledged learned from a demon magic is uncommon amongst the Wardens. Anything learned from a demon will undoubtedly have its drawbacks in the immediate situation, because the demon is attempting to manipulate the other party in the deal. Such learning passed down, with the exception of particularly powerful/dangerous applications of blood magic, is likely not too big a threat.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Cultist wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

It caused nothing but pain and suffering so far.
What a great tool indeed.

It caused creation of the biggest human Empire on Thedas.

You mean the biggest pit of misery? The capital of slavery? The most hated empire in history?

Ha...

[Lotion Soronarr]

DKJaigen wrote...
Its confirmed in lore and by DG so stop ****ing about it. the warden joining ritual is a form of bloodmagic. phylacterys are also a form of bloodmagic so templars also use bloodmagic.

Hm....don't recall that. IIRC, Gaider said it might be considered blood magic (which is not the smae thing as actualyl ebing blood magic)... but I'll take your word on it.

Not that it matters, as it doesn't change anything really.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 03 octobre 2012 - 07:21 .

[Auintus]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...
Its confirmed in lore and by DG so stop ****ing about it. the warden joining ritual is a form of bloodmagic. phylacterys are also a form of bloodmagic so templars also use bloodmagic.

Hm....don't recall that. IIRC, Gaider said it might be considered blood magic (which is not the smae thing as actualyl ebing blood magic)... but I'll take your word on it.

Not that it matters, as it doesn't change anything really.

It's like the lights of Arlathan in Witch Hunt. The spell to locate them uses blood as a component, not as a fuel. Finn says it's a grey area, though, in my opinion, if blood isn't the source of power, than it's not blood magic.

Modifié par Auintus, 03 octobre 2012 - 07:29 .

[Auintus]

Whoops

Modifié par Auintus, 03 octobre 2012 - 07:28 .

[EricHVela]

I say: Leave the morality of it to the individual NPCs as the writers choose (as they'll have differing opinions just like people do ITT). Let the players decide if they want to use blood magic with or without regard to the NPCs' opinions.

Everything has a consequence, good or bad, expected or not. Reactions from other character are such consequences.

That said: I think there should be a definite price to pay for that kind of power. By game mechanics, I would make it cost health that the player cannot heal without other rather costly magic that some non-companion NPC must perform. For the sake of making it more interesting, attempting to draw blood from other living NPCs (including companions) should be an option with appropriate reactions from the various NPC witnesses.

That's just my take on it. I don't think browbeating the benefits, detriments or morality of it here on the forum makes much sense when the game characters will have their own opinions as the writers deign the NPCs to have.

[LobselVith8]

Auintus wrote...

It's like the lights of Arlathan in Witch Hunt. The spell to locate them uses blood as a component, not as a fuel. Finn says it's a grey area, though, in my opinion, if blood isn't the source of power, than it's not blood magic.

If Finn was confidant of that explanation, he wouldn't ask The Warden and the others not to reveal that he knows the spell. The developers have already said that the Joining and the phylacteries are blood magic.

[Arokel]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Cultist wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

It caused nothing but pain and suffering so far.
What a great tool indeed.

It caused creation of the biggest human Empire on Thedas.

You mean the biggest pit of misery? The capital of slavery? The most hated empire in history?

Ha...

To be fair most of our information about Tevinter comes from the Chantry's perspective.  The Chantry is not exactly an unbiased source when it comes to the moral status of Tevinter.

I'm not saying ancient Tevinter was all sunshine and goodness but it would have had its good and its bad just like any other society.

[Sibu]

Blood Magic is power, power corrupts, mages are unworthy of any trust. Any mage that is willing to use it deserves to die in a fire.

[Arokel]

Sibu wrote...

Blood Magic is power, power corrupts, mages are unworthy of any trust. Any mage that is willing to use it deserves to die in a fire.

You're a Meredith fan aren't you?  

[Shadow Fox]

Arokel wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Cultist wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

It caused nothing but pain and suffering so far.
What a great tool indeed.

It caused creation of the biggest human Empire on Thedas.

You mean the biggest pit of misery? The capital of slavery? The most hated empire in history?

Ha...

To be fair most of our information about Tevinter comes from the Chantry's perspective.  The Chantry is not exactly an unbiased source when it comes to the moral status of Tevinter.

I'm not saying ancient Tevinter was all sunshine and goodness but it would have had its good and its bad just like any other society.

I dunno Fenris paints a pretty bleak picture of the place.