2177 réponses à ce sujet

[Vandicus]

Urzon wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...
The country can't all just be magisters or slaves.

But it's so much easier to paint it as evil that way!

I'd have to agree though. Other than the codexs, the only look into Tevinter culture has all been through either: slaves, slavers, or creepy old magisters. Those people aren't exactly the best way to judge a culture as a whole by. The Qun fall into that category as well. Save for Tallis, the players have only interacted with the Qunari's army, the Arishok's forces and Sten (the new Arishok).

Well assuming Tevinter is modeled after slave holding nations where slavery is the backbone of the economy, the magisters and wealthy slaver merchants would be the upper class, the middle class would be the mercenaries and slavers, and then the lower class would be slaves and freemen who can only find work on the interior of Tevinter by offering their services cheap enough to compete with slavery. 

[LobselVith8]

Medhia Nox wrote...

The Joining and the Phylacteries being blood magic doesn't make blood magic good.

Just like the Tevinter Magisters using blood magic to subjugate people doesn't make it evil; we know Grey Warden mages use blood magic to give them an edge against the darkspawn, who are the greatest threat that Thedas has ever faced, and Merrill used blood magic to cleanse a shard of the darkspawn taint. It's not inherently evil, it isn't the dark side of the Force. Blood magic is a weapon that can be used for good or bad; it all depends on the blood mage who uses it.

[Medhia Nox]

It is magic with an "intent" however - it is not neutral and saying so is duplicitous.

The dark side is for a being already heading toward darkness - blood magic corrupts.

The fact that it can be used without corruption (in heavily controlled environments where free will doesn't play a role) doesn't make it less dangerous.

You don't let people carry around vials of bio-toxin just because the bio-toxin isn't evil.

====

Of course - the point is moot to me - that they even let mages learn combat spells at all is ridiculous.

[LobselVith8]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Ahglock wrote...

Whenever people in the game phrase blood magic as just a tool, just another form of magic they always come across as addicts trying to convince you that they don't have a drinking problem, they just have a drink now and then to loosen up.  I kind of assume that was the intent, but enough people seem to take the statements at face value that who knows.

Merrill's case is arguably different, especially if you rival her.  On the rivalry friendship or romance, she seems to know what she's doing is wrong, and it's a compulsion you help her to break.

Merrill seems to be a weaker person in the rivalry path. Look at how her dialogue makes her scared after Dissent when she speaks to Anders on the Rivalry path, in contrast to how confidant she is when she speaks to Anders on the Friendship path about how all spirits are dangerous (although I understand the dialogue for Merrill is bugged, and both versions show up when only one is supposed to).

I never really understood how Hawke, who knows absolutely nothing about elven culture, the Eluvians, the plight of the People, or possibly blood magic, can tell Merrill that she's wrong when she studied the lore on the Eluvian, extrapolated information from the shard, and understands blood magic.

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

And Jowan in DA:O genuinely regrets using blood magic.  Oddly enough neither character is the sort I'd expect to be able to resist the corruption that blood magic brings, but maybe a certain innocence of spirit helps.

Jowan regrets the mistakes he's made, from getting Lily and his best friend (the mage protagonist) caught up in his botched escape attempt, to poisoning Arl Eamon because Teyrn Loghain manipulated him into thinking that the Arl was an enemy of Ferelden.

[Vandicus]

LobselVith8 wrote...


I never really understood how Hawke, who knows absolutely nothing about elven culture, the Eluvians, the plight of the People, or possibly blood magic, can tell Merrill that she's wrong when she studied the lore on the Eluvian, extrapolated information from the shard, and understands blood magic.

Easy. Merril is working with a demon. Its an act of supreme arrogance to knowingly follow the direction of an immortal being who you know is trying to manipulate you and assume that you'll have no difficulty dealing with it. 

[Shadow Fox]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Ahglock wrote...

Whenever people in the game phrase blood magic as just a tool, just another form of magic they always come across as addicts trying to convince you that they don't have a drinking problem, they just have a drink now and then to loosen up.  I kind of assume that was the intent, but enough people seem to take the statements at face value that who knows.

Merrill's case is arguably different, especially if you rival her.  On the rivalry friendship or romance, she seems to know what she's doing is wrong, and it's a compulsion you help her to break.

Merrill seems to be a weaker person in the rivalry path. Look at how her dialogue makes her scared after Dissent when she speaks to Anders on the Rivalry path, in contrast to how confidant she is when she speaks to Anders on the Friendship path about how all spirits are dangerous (although I understand the dialogue for Merrill is bugged, and both versions show up when only one is supposed to).

I never really understood how Hawke, who knows absolutely nothing about elven culture, the Eluvians, the plight of the People, or possibly blood magic, can tell Merrill that she's wrong when she studied the lore on the Eluvian, extrapolated information from the shard, and understands blood magic.

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

And Jowan in DA:O genuinely regrets using blood magic.  Oddly enough neither character is the sort I'd expect to be able to resist the corruption that blood magic brings, but maybe a certain innocence of spirit helps.

Jowan regrets the mistakes he's made, from getting Lily and his best friend (the mage protagonist) caught up in his botched escape attempt, to poisoning Arl Eamon because Teyrn Loghain manipulated him into thinking that the Arl was an enemy of Ferelden.

Yes let's ignore how that mirror nearly killed the Dalish Warden and turned Tamlen into a ghoul let's also forget how not only the Keeper*who is older,more experianced and wiser than she is* but her ENTIRE clan told her repeatedly to stop messing with it and how ultimately it brings ruin to her clan because the Keeper loved her too much to refuse or kill her and she still has the GALL to blame the woman who saved her for what happened my impression of Merrill was an arrogant,selfish fool alot like Morrigan but without the snark.

And I'd say Hawke would understand Blood Magic better than most since he/she has an apostate father I doubt Malcolm would be stupid enough not to inform his possiblly Mage children of the most dangerous and tempting magic there is.

Is that supposed to  excuse him?He still dabbled in magic he knew carried a death sentence and helped to cause a child to get possesed by a demon that nearly destroyed Redchillfe Jowan is a gullible fool with access to dangerous magic on the loose only a complete fool would allow someone like that to remain free.

[LobselVith8]

Vandicus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I never really understood how Hawke, who knows absolutely nothing about elven culture, the Eluvians, the plight of the People, or possibly blood magic, can tell Merrill that she's wrong when she studied the lore on the Eluvian, extrapolated information from the shard, and understands blood magic. 

Easy. Merril is working with a demon. Its an act of supreme arrogance to knowingly follow the direction of an immortal being who you know is trying to manipulate you and assume that you'll have no difficulty dealing with it. 

Merrill learned blood magic from Audacity because she lacked the sufficient amount of lyrium to cleanse the shard otherwise, and we know from the Dalish Origin that Merrill knew a spell to counteract the taint. We also know that Merrill extrapolated information from the shard and studied the lore on the Eluvian. Essentially, Merill is informed about the situation, while Hawke is ignorant about it.

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Jowan regrets the mistakes he's made, from getting Lily and his best friend (the mage protagonist) caught up in his botched escape attempt, to poisoning Arl Eamon because Teyrn Loghain manipulated him into thinking that the Arl was an enemy of Ferelden. 

Yes let's ignore how that mirror nearly killed the Dalish Warden and turned Tamlen into a ghoul let's also forget how not only the Keeper*who is older,more experianced and wiser than she is* but her ENTIRE clan told her repeatedly to stop messing with it and how ultimately it brings ruin to her clan because the Keeper loved her too much to refuse or kill her and she still has the GALL to blame the woman who saved her for what happened my impression of Merrill was an arrogant,selfish fool alot like Morrigan but without the snark.

First, Tamlen was tainted because the Eluvian was tainted. Merrill cleansed the shard, which is why she isn't a ghoul, and why the elves who were interacting with the remaining shards in Witch Hunt had become ghouls even after the Eluvian was destroyed.

Second, Merrill studied the lore and extrapolated information from the shard. Marethari argued that she didn't think the ancestors wanted them to study the Eluvian, and never makes any indication that she researched the Eluvian at all. Am I going to trust the First who did the research, or the Keeper who doesn't seem to have done the same level of intensive research that Merrill has?

Third, Marethari poisoned the clan against Merrill, which is why Pol decides to run into death rather than trust Hawke and Merrill.

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

And I'd say Hawke would understand Blood Magic better than most since he/she has an apostate father I doubt Malcolm would be stupid enough not to inform his possiblly Mage children of the most dangerous and tempting magic there is.

Hawke understands it if he's a mage; I don't really think he does if he's a warrior or a rogue.

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Is that supposed to  excuse him?He still dabbled in magic he knew carried a death sentence and helped to cause a child to get possesed by a demon that nearly destroyed Redchillfe Jowan is a gullible fool with access to dangerous magic on the loose only a complete fool would allow someone like that to remain free.

I'm addressing that Jowan didn't make mistakes because he was lured to the dark side of the Force. Jowan made foolish mistakes because he's a flawed person.

[Vandicus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I never really understood how Hawke, who knows absolutely nothing about elven culture, the Eluvians, the plight of the People, or possibly blood magic, can tell Merrill that she's wrong when she studied the lore on the Eluvian, extrapolated information from the shard, and understands blood magic. 

Vandicus wrote...
Easy. Merril is working with a demon. Its an act of supreme arrogance to knowingly follow the direction of an immortal being who you know is trying to manipulate you and assume that you'll have no difficulty dealing with it. 

LobselVith8 wrote...
Merrill learned blood magic from Audacity because she lacked the sufficient amount of lyrium to cleanse the shard otherwise, and we know from the Dalish Origin that Merrill knew a spell to counteract the taint. We also know that Merrill extrapolated information from the shard and studied the lore on the Eluvian. Essentially, Merill is informed about the situation, while Hawke is ignorant about it.

Yeah she had a reason for why she did something so obviously stupid. Does that make her deal with the demon any less obviously stupid? She could've at least had the intelligence to go in assuming that she would be screwed, but Merril actually thinks she's got everything under control. Moreover she apparently doesn't really understand the difference between a spirit and a demon.

*EDITED to fix quotations

Modifié par Vandicus, 04 octobre 2012 - 08:50 .

[Fallstar]

As usual, people assume blood magic requires a deal with a demon. Do they just ignore certain parts of the game?

How to become a blood mage 101:

1. Make a deal with a demon.
2. Have a chitchat with an old god. Preferably be the ruler of a vast kingdom so as to have bargaining chips.
3. Read a book.
4. Talk to another blood mage.

[Vandicus]

DuskWarden wrote...

As usual, people assume blood magic requires a deal with a demon. Do they just ignore certain parts of the game?

How to become a blood mage 101:

1. Make a deal with a demon.
2. Have a chitchat with an old god. Preferably be the ruler of a vast kingdom so as to have bargaining chips.
3. Read a book.
4. Talk to another blood mage.

Who are you talking to? Merril clearly has taken option 1. Option 1 seems to work out badly in pretty much all cases. Option 3 seems to work out better, and option 4 has mixed results.

[Fallstar]

Vandicus wrote...

DuskWarden wrote...

As usual, people assume blood magic requires a deal with a demon. Do they just ignore certain parts of the game?

How to become a blood mage 101:

1. Make a deal with a demon.
2. Have a chitchat with an old god. Preferably be the ruler of a vast kingdom so as to have bargaining chips.
3. Read a book.
4. Talk to another blood mage.

Who are you talking to? Merril clearly has taken option 1. Option 1 seems to work out badly in pretty much all cases. Option 3 seems to work out better, and option 4 has mixed results.

Not you, several other posters who seem to think that blood magic and demons go hand in hand. Which is just a falsehood.

All blood magic is, is the ability to use life - specifically blood - instead of mana to power spells. That's it. All the supposedly horrifying things blood mages can do, normal mages do too. 

Mind Control? The school of entropy lets you put people to sleep, give them waking nightmares and kill their friends and family. Summoning demons? Anders - who hates blood magic - has no problem summoning two shades (Hunger demons) in Legacy.

The impression most people have of blood magic is because of chantry lies and propoganda. It works on the majority of people in Thedas, and it seems most players take it at face value too.

Modifié par DuskWarden, 04 octobre 2012 - 08:58 .

[Shadow Fox]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I never really understood how Hawke, who knows absolutely nothing about elven culture, the Eluvians, the plight of the People, or possibly blood magic, can tell Merrill that she's wrong when she studied the lore on the Eluvian, extrapolated information from the shard, and understands blood magic. 

Easy. Merril is working with a demon. Its an act of supreme arrogance to knowingly follow the direction of an immortal being who you know is trying to manipulate you and assume that you'll have no difficulty dealing with it. 

Merrill learned blood magic from Audacity because she lacked the sufficient amount of lyrium to cleanse the shard otherwise, and we know from the Dalish Origin that Merrill knew a spell to counteract the taint. We also know that Merrill extrapolated information from the shard and studied the lore on the Eluvian. Essentially, Merill is informed about the situation, while Hawke is ignorant about it.

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Jowan regrets the mistakes he's made, from getting Lily and his best friend (the mage protagonist) caught up in his botched escape attempt, to poisoning Arl Eamon because Teyrn Loghain manipulated him into thinking that the Arl was an enemy of Ferelden. 

Yes let's ignore how that mirror nearly killed the Dalish Warden and turned Tamlen into a ghoul let's also forget how not only the Keeper*who is older,more experianced and wiser than she is* but her ENTIRE clan told her repeatedly to stop messing with it and how ultimately it brings ruin to her clan because the Keeper loved her too much to refuse or kill her and she still has the GALL to blame the woman who saved her for what happened my impression of Merrill was an arrogant,selfish fool alot like Morrigan but without the snark.

First, Tamlen was tainted because the Eluvian was tainted. Merrill cleansed the shard, which is why she isn't a ghoul, and why the elves who were interacting with the remaining shards in Witch Hunt had become ghouls even after the Eluvian was destroyed.

Second, Merrill studied the lore and extrapolated information from the shard. Marethari argued that she didn't think the ancestors wanted them to study the Eluvian, and never makes any indication that she researched the Eluvian at all. Am I going to trust the First who did the research, or the Keeper who doesn't seem to have done the same level of intensive research that Merrill has?

Third, Marethari poisoned the clan against Merrill, which is why Pol decides to run into death rather than trust Hawke and Merrill.

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

And I'd say Hawke would understand Blood Magic better than most since he/she has an apostate father I doubt Malcolm would be stupid enough not to inform his possiblly Mage children of the most dangerous and tempting magic there is.

Hawke understands it if he's a mage; I don't really think he does if he's a warrior or a rogue.

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Is that supposed to  excuse him?He still dabbled in magic he knew carried a death sentence and helped to cause a child to get possesed by a demon that nearly destroyed Redchillfe Jowan is a gullible fool with access to dangerous magic on the loose only a complete fool would allow someone like that to remain free.

I'm addressing that Jowan didn't make mistakes because he was lured to the dark side of the Force. Jowan made foolish mistakes because he's a flawed person.

She thinks she's cleansed it the same way most Wardens think they're immune to the taint  who's to say it isn't just temporary? And yeah I'll trust the more experianced mage who knows some things are not ment to be trifled with then the one who thinks demons want to be our friends. she informed them of what Merrill was doing and they quite resonably didn't like it.

Hawke still had an apostate father and  a mage sister I doubt Malcolm would trust Hawke to protect without knowing  just how dangerous magic is.

Jowan isn't flawed just really really stupid.

[Shadow Fox]

DuskWarden wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

DuskWarden wrote...

As usual, people assume blood magic requires a deal with a demon. Do they just ignore certain parts of the game?

How to become a blood mage 101:

1. Make a deal with a demon.
2. Have a chitchat with an old god. Preferably be the ruler of a vast kingdom so as to have bargaining chips.
3. Read a book.
4. Talk to another blood mage.

Who are you talking to? Merril clearly has taken option 1. Option 1 seems to work out badly in pretty much all cases. Option 3 seems to work out better, and option 4 has mixed results.

Not you, several other posters who seem to think that blood magic and demons go hand in hand. Which is just a falsehood.

All blood magic is, is the ability to use life - specifically blood - instead of mana to power spells. That's it. All the supposedly horrifying things blood mages can do, normal mages do too. 

Mind Control? The school of entropy lets you put people to sleep, give them waking nightmares and kill their friends and family. Summoning demons? Anders - who hates blood magic - has no problem summoning two shades (Hunger demons) in Legacy.

The impression most people have of blood magic is because of chantry lies and propoganda. It works on the majority of people in Thedas, and it seems most players take it at face value too.

Or it could be how in the games nothing good usually comes from it and most of it's users go insane or become abominations? Nope it's because we're gullible morons who always believe what authority spoonfeeds us.<_<

[LobselVith8]

Vandicus wrote...

Yeah she had a reason for why she did something so obviously stupid. Does that make her deal with the demon any less obviously stupid?

Audacity was sundered from the Fade and trapped in a totem by ancient magic.

Vandicus wrote...

She could've at least had the intelligence to go in assuming that she would be screwed, but Merril actually thinks she's got everything under control.

Considering Marethari was the one who let Audacity loose, and not Merrill...

Vandicus wrote...

Moreover she apparently doesn't really understand the difference between a spirit and a demon.

Considering that it's addressed that the distinction between spirits and demons are basically a Chantry concept concerning the Chantry religion stating that they are the Children of the Maker, with demons being different sins of humanity, it seems that Merrill understands perfect that it's part of the Chantry religion. As Merrill explains:

Anders: Maybe you don't really understand the difference between spirits and demons.

Merrill: Did I ask you?

Anders: Spirits were the first children of the Maker, but He turned his back on them to dote on His mortal creations. The ones who resented this became demons, driven to take everything mortals had and gain back the Maker's favor.

Merrill: Your "Maker" is a story you humans use to explain the world. We have our own stories. I don't need to borrow yours.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 04 octobre 2012 - 09:08 .

[LobselVith8]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I'm addressing that Jowan didn't make mistakes because he was lured to the dark side of the Force. Jowan made foolish mistakes because he's a flawed person. 

She thinks she's cleansed it the same way most Wardens think they're immune to the taint  who's to say it isn't just temporary?

Wardens saying they are immune to the taint is easier than explaining the secret process involved. It's not quite the same thing as Merrill clearly not being a ghoul almost a decade after handling the shard.

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

And yeah I'll trust the more experianced mage who knows some things are not ment to be trifled with then the one who thinks demons want to be our friends. she informed them of what Merrill was doing and they quite resonably didn't like it.

Actually, Merrill explains:

Merrill: Are you all right?
Anders: I nearly killed an innocent girl. How could I be all right?

Merrill: I'm sorry.

Anders: You're sorry? For me? This could be you! You could be the next monster threatening helpless girls!

Merrill: Anders... There's no such thing as a good spirit. There never was. All spirits are dangerous. I understood that. I'm sorry that you didn't.

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Hawke still had an apostate father and  a mage sister I doubt Malcolm would trust Hawke to protect without knowing  just how dangerous magic is.

While Merrill actually knows blood magic, and Hawke may simply have one man's opinion on it.

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
Jowan isn't flawed just really really stupid. 

Considering Jowan can become Master Levyn and dedicate his life to protecting refugees from the darkspawn, I think there's still hope for him.

[Fallstar]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
Or it could be how in the games nothing good usually comes from it and most of it's users go insane or become abominations? Nope it's because we're gullible morons who always believe what authority spoonfeeds us.<_<

The Warden and Hawke can both use blood magic and good can come of it. And if they learn the mind control talent, then according to the scrolls of banastor they've done some seriously dodgy things to learn that ability. Yet they do good. Morrigan restores an Eluvian. Although we don't know for sure, the chances are she used blood magic. Merril nearly restored an Eluvian through BM.

The ritual to become a Warden, and therefore the reason everyone isn't dead and the world overrun by darkspawn, is a blood magic ritual. Morrigan can potentially capture the soul of an uncorrupted old god through blood magic. There are countless more instances of BM doing good.

The Warden thing alone means that more good has come from use of blood magic than pretty much everything else in Thedas. Although bad things happen with blood magic, that's not because of BM; that's flawed individuals messing with lots of power. You don't need evil, corrupting powers for bad things to happen there. That sort of thing happens daily in the real world. It's called politics.

Modifié par DuskWarden, 04 octobre 2012 - 09:14 .

[Shadow Fox]

DuskWarden wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
Or it could be how in the games nothing good usually comes from it and most of it's users go insane or become abominations? Nope it's because we're gullible morons who always believe what authority spoonfeeds us.<_<

The Warden and Hawke can both use blood magic and good can come of it. And if they learn the mind control talent, then according to the scrolls of banastor they've done some seriously dodgy things to learn that ability. Yet they do good. Morrigan restores an Eluvian. Although we don't know for sure, the chances are she used blood magic. Merril nearly restored an Eluvian through BM.

The ritual to become a Warden, and therefore the reason everyone isn't dead and the world overrun by darkspawn, is a blood magic ritual. Morrigan can potentially capture the soul of an uncorrupted old god through blood magic. There are countless more instances of BM doing good.

The Warden thing alone means that more good has come from use of blood magic than pretty much everything else in Thedas. Although bad things happen with blood magic, that's not because of BM; that's flawed individuals messing with lots of power. You don't need evil, corrupting powers for bad things to happen there. That sort of thing happens daily in the real world. It's called politics.

PCs break the laws of the universe they're in.

Blood magic hasn't defeated the Darkspawn and Warden's are only needed to keep an Archdemon from reviving it'self they aren't a requirment to kill Darkspawn.

I wasn't aware that Morrigan's ritual was considered a good thing...

Wheter the Wardens are a good thing is ultimately debatable considering Wardens themselves do very questionable thing such as the ROC and the events of Legacy.

No a more accurate comparsion is that Blood magic is to regular magic what a bomb is to a gun both are destructive but the scale is widely different plus regular magic can be resisted via high willpower BM can't.

[Vandicus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Yeah she had a reason for why she did something so obviously stupid. Does that make her deal with the demon any less obviously stupid?

Audacity was sundered from the Fade and trapped in a totem by ancient magic.

Vandicus wrote...

She could've at least had the intelligence to go in assuming that she would be screwed, but Merril actually thinks she's got everything under control.

Considering Marethari was the one who let Audacity loose, and not Merrill...

Vandicus wrote...

Moreover she apparently doesn't really understand the difference between a spirit and a demon.

Considering that it's addressed that the distinction between spirits and demons are basically a Chantry concept concerning the Chantry religion stating that they are the Children of the Maker, with demons being different sins of humanity, it seems that Merrill understands perfect that it's part of the Chantry religion. As Merrill explains:

Anders: Maybe you don't really understand the difference between spirits and demons.

Merrill: Did I ask you?

Anders: Spirits were the first children of the Maker, but He turned his back on them to dote on His mortal creations. The ones who resented this became demons, driven to take everything mortals had and gain back the Maker's favor.

Merrill: Your "Maker" is a story you humans use to explain the world. We have our own stories. I don't need to borrow yours.

Its pretty clear that Justice is not a demon. Now a lot of Chantry info on the Fade has been religiosified, but they're largely based on Tevinter accounts. That there is a fundamental difference between spirits and demons I would say was first discovered by the Tevinters, and the Chantry has spread that knowledge. Empirical evidence shows this to be true.

Are you trying to suggest that Marethari took the demon inside herself to hurt Merrill? Her reasons for doing so seeem very plausible, and its clear she's far more educated on the nature of magic than Merrill. Moreover, our metagame knowledge of the Eluvian supports her assertions that a window into the Fade would've allowed the demon to escape and kill Merril. Ignoring the whole PC plot armor that allows us to normally kill demons and high dragons with little difficulty, the belief that a fully released Pride demon would probably kill Merrill is very valid. Pride demons are the sort've thing that destroy entire Circles.

[Fallstar]

There is no difference between spirits and demons other than the virtues they exemplify. Those who exemplify perceived negative attributes are called demons, whilst the others are called spirits.

A spirit of Mercy might have no problem massacring an entire village of terminally ill people who were going to die painful deaths, perhaps even against their will. Spirits exemplify their attributes absolutely. The idea of classifying them into spirits and demons is a very human thing, and has absolutely no meaning in the fade.

[Vandicus]

DuskWarden wrote...

There is no difference between spirits and demons other than the virtues they exemplify. Those who exemplify perceived negative attributes are called demons, whilst the others are called spirits.

A spirit of Mercy might have no problem massacring an entire village of terminally ill people who were going to die painful deaths, perhaps even against their will. Spirits exemplify their attributes absolutely. The idea of classifying them into spirits and demons is a very human thing, and has absolutely no meaning in the fade.

There's a universal difference in their classification. Ordinary spirits don't seek to enter the mortal realm. Demons do. 

[Shadow Fox]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I'm addressing that Jowan didn't make mistakes because he was lured to the dark side of the Force. Jowan made foolish mistakes because he's a flawed person. 

She thinks she's cleansed it the same way most Wardens think they're immune to the taint  who's to say it isn't just temporary?

Wardens saying they are immune to the taint is easier than explaining the secret process involved. It's not quite the same thing as Merrill clearly not being a ghoul almost a decade after handling the shard.

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

And yeah I'll trust the more experianced mage who knows some things are not ment to be trifled with then the one who thinks demons want to be our friends. she informed them of what Merrill was doing and they quite resonably didn't like it.

Actually, Merrill explains:

Merrill: Are you all right?
Anders: I nearly killed an innocent girl. How could I be all right?

Merrill: I'm sorry.

Anders: You're sorry? For me? This could be you! You could be the next monster threatening helpless girls!

Merrill: Anders... There's no such thing as a good spirit. There never was. All spirits are dangerous. I understood that. I'm sorry that you didn't.

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Hawke still had an apostate father and  a mage sister I doubt Malcolm would trust Hawke to protect without knowing  just how dangerous magic is.

While Merrill actually knows blood magic, and Hawke may simply have one man's opinion on it.

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
Jowan isn't flawed just really really stupid. 

Considering Jowan can become Master Levyn and dedicate his life to protecting refugees from the darkspawn, I think there's still hope for him.

You seem to misinterpent my point most Wardens believe they are immune rather then just having a delayed case and it usually takes 30 years before they develop symptoms so Merrill being okay after a decade isn't really hard evidence.

Then that just makes her stupider if she knows this and still bargains with them.

Malcolm knew blood magic so his opinion is just as good as Merril's actually better since he wasn't a naive idiot who advocated making deals with demons.

Perhaps

[LobselVith8]

Vandicus wrote...

Its pretty clear that Justice is not a demon. Now a lot of Chantry info on the Fade has been religiosified, but they're largely based on Tevinter accounts. That there is a fundamental difference between spirits and demons I would say was first discovered by the Tevinters, and the Chantry has spread that knowledge. Empirical evidence shows this to be true.

So we're ignoring the dialogue between Anders and Merrill where Anders explicitly says that it's tied to religion, which is the very crux of why Merrill doesn't believe in the Andrastian distinction between spirits and demons? It's not as though this is the only dialogue where this is addressed. Merrill points out to Anders:

Anders: Do Dalish honestly not recognize the difference between demons and beneficial spirits?
Merrill: We've never thought of the Fade as the home of our gods. It is another realm, another people's home. No different or more foreign than, say, Orzammar.

Varric: You can say that again.

Anders: But have you never studied the types of demons? They break down very clearly into different sins-

Merrill: Spirits differ from each other, just as you and Hawke and Isabela are all human. More or less...

Vandicus wrote...

Are you trying to suggest that Marethari took the demon inside herself to hurt Merrill?

If Marethari has no basis for why she believes Audacity can use the Eluvian to escape, then it suggests she believes this is the case because she came up with the idea one day, or Audacity suggested it to be the case.

Vandicus wrote...

Her reasons for doing so seeem very plausible, and its clear she's far more educated on the nature of magic than Merrill.

Merrill studied the lore on the Eluvian and extrapolated information from the shard. Marethari doesn't seem to have done any research at all on the Eluvian. In fact, none of her arguments are based on any research, simply speculation.

Vandicus wrote...

Moreover, our metagame knowledge of the Eluvian supports her assertions that a window into the Fade would've allowed the demon to escape and kill Merril.

Incorrect. Morrigan points out the Eluvian is a doorway beyond this world, and beyond the Fade.

Vandicus wrote...

Ignoring the whole PC plot armor that allows us to normally kill demons and high dragons with little difficulty, the belief that a fully released Pride demon would probably kill Merrill is very valid. Pride demons are the sort've thing that destroy entire Circles.

Since Marethari released the Pride Demon in the first place...

[Fallstar]

PCs break the laws of the universe they're in.

Irrelevant. Your PC can still do good as a blood mage.

Blood magic hasn't defeated the Darkspawn and Warden's are only needed to keep an Archdemon from reviving it'self they aren't a requirment to kill Darkspawn.

An immortal Archdemon wouldn't have any problem killing everything by itself. The Wardens are required. The opening of Origins tells you this, that all hope was lost until the Wardens were born.

The ritual to become a Warden is a blood magic ritual. Therefore becoming a Warden requires blood magic. Therefore, the good that comes from being a Warden - ie saving the world - comes from a blood magic ritual. It isn't that hard to follow.

I wasn't aware that Morrigan's ritual was considered a good thing...

If you think an uncorrupted old god is not a good thing, then sure. Many people do however.

Wheter the Wardens are a good thing is ultimately debatable considering Wardens themselves do very questionable thing such as the ROC and the events of Legacy.

The world of Thedas would be overwhelmed by darkspawn if it wasn't for the Wardens. They don't have the convenience of sitting around in chantries debating the morality of magic they know nothing about.

No a more accurate comparsion is that Blood magic is to regular magic what a bomb is to a gun both are destructive but the scale is widely different plus regular magic can be resisted via high willpower BM can't.

No. Blood magic, as I stated previously is simply using life instead of mana to power spells. Yes, you could gather large numbers of people and take some of their blood to cast far more powerful spells, but you can do the exact same thing with lyrium. There's even a quote from a codex entry to this effect: “The name, of course, refers to the fact that magic of this type uses
life, specifically in the form of blood, instead of mana.” That's all there is to it.

Modifié par DuskWarden, 04 octobre 2012 - 09:40 .

[Shadow Fox]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Its pretty clear that Justice is not a demon. Now a lot of Chantry info on the Fade has been religiosified, but they're largely based on Tevinter accounts. That there is a fundamental difference between spirits and demons I would say was first discovered by the Tevinters, and the Chantry has spread that knowledge. Empirical evidence shows this to be true.

So we're ignoring the dialogue between Anders and Merrill where Anders explicitly says that it's tied to religion, which is the very crux of why Merrill doesn't believe in the Andrastian distinction between spirits and demons? It's not as though this is the only dialogue where this is addressed. Merrill points out to Anders:

Anders: Do Dalish honestly not recognize the difference between demons and beneficial spirits?
Merrill: We've never thought of the Fade as the home of our gods. It is another realm, another people's home. No different or more foreign than, say, Orzammar.

Varric: You can say that again.

Anders: But have you never studied the types of demons? They break down very clearly into different sins-

Merrill: Spirits differ from each other, just as you and Hawke and Isabela are all human. More or less...

Vandicus wrote...

Are you trying to suggest that Marethari took the demon inside herself to hurt Merrill?

If Marethari has no basis for why she believes Audacity can use the Eluvian to escape, then it suggests she believes this is the case because she came up with the idea one day, or Audacity suggested it to be the case.

Vandicus wrote...

Her reasons for doing so seeem very plausible, and its clear she's far more educated on the nature of magic than Merrill.

Merrill studied the lore on the Eluvian and extrapolated information from the shard. Marethari doesn't seem to have done any research at all on the Eluvian. In fact, none of her arguments are based on any research, simply speculation.

Vandicus wrote...

Moreover, our metagame knowledge of the Eluvian supports her assertions that a window into the Fade would've allowed the demon to escape and kill Merril.

Incorrect. Morrigan points out the Eluvian is a doorway beyond this world, and beyond the Fade.

Vandicus wrote...

Ignoring the whole PC plot armor that allows us to normally kill demons and high dragons with little difficulty, the belief that a fully released Pride demon would probably kill Merrill is very valid. Pride demons are the sort've thing that destroy entire Circles.

Since Marethari released the Pride Demon in the first place...

No the reason Spirits are seen as good is because they don't want to enter the mortal realm to cause chaos unlike demons.

[Vandicus]

Anders' knowledge of it is from the Chantry, as was all of his knowledge of magic(since the Circle of Magi is Chantry run). That does not render his knowledge invalid.

The Eluvian are portals of elven make. If anyone knows about them, its the Keeper herself.

Merrill's studies were based off of what a demon told her to do and search for. As such, anything she discovers is likely designed to confirm beliefs of hers that will allow the Pride Demon's escape.

Morrigan uses the Eluvian as a portal to somewhere else. Read up a bit more on the Eluvian. There are previous cases where one is a door or seeing glass into the Fade. In fact the Dalish Elf story brings up the Black City.

What Marethari did allegedly gives us an advantage, otherwise the Pride Demon would presumably destroy us as it'd come through the Eluvian. Fade level power Pride Demon? Pretty nasty stuff.