2177 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

You seem to misinterpent my point most Wardens believe they are immune rather then just having a delayed case and it usually takes 30 years before they develop symptoms so Merrill being okay after a decade isn't really hard evidence.

Wardens know they have to go to their Calling. Alistair explains this to The Warden, as Duncan died before being able to tell the protagonist. It's not as though it's a secret that they only have a certain period of time left because of the taint.

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Then that just makes her stupider if she knows this and still bargains with them.

Audacity is trapped in a totem by ancient magic and is sundered from the Fade. I don't see how Merrill is stupid here when Audacity is trapped in a totem, and she stresses that she won't release Audacity from the totem he is trapped in.

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Malcolm knew blood magic so his opinion is just as good as Merril's actually better since he wasn't a naive idiot who advocated making deals with demons.

Merrill points out that all spirits are dangerous. Furthermore, Merrill stresses that Hawke can learn something from a demon, as we see how Hawke can learn about the Deep Roads situation from the Profane Abomination and what is happened to Feynriel from the Sloth Demon; in essence, they can provide knowledge to Hawke, and the Champion doesnt have to make a deal with them.

[Vandicus]

DuskWarden wrote...

PCs break the laws of the universe they're in.

Irrelevant. Your PC can still do good as a blood mage.

Blood magic hasn't defeated the Darkspawn and Warden's are only needed to keep an Archdemon from reviving it'self they aren't a requirment to kill Darkspawn.

An immortal Archdemon wouldn't have any problem killing everything by itself. The Wardens are required. The opening of Origins tells you this, that all hope was lost until the Wardens were born.

The ritual to become a Warden is a blood magic ritual. Therefore becoming a Warden requires blood magic. Therefore, the good that comes from being a Warden - ie saving the world - comes from a blood magic ritual. It isn't that hard to follow.

I wasn't aware that Morrigan's ritual was considered a good thing...

If you think an uncorrupted old god is not a good thing, then sure. Many people do however.

Wheter the Wardens are a good thing is ultimately debatable considering Wardens themselves do very questionable thing such as the ROC and the events of Legacy.

The world of Thedas would be overwhelmed by darkspawn if it wasn't for the Wardens. They don't have the convenience of sitting around in chantries debating the morality of magic they know nothing about.

No a more accurate comparsion is that Blood magic is to regular magic what a bomb is to a gun both are destructive but the scale is widely different plus regular magic can be resisted via high willpower BM can't.

No. Blood magic, as I stated previously is simply using life instead of mana to power spells. Yes, you could gather large numbers of people and take some of their blood to cast far more powerful spells, but you can do the exact same thing with lyrium. There's even a quote from a codex entry to this effect: “The name, of course, refers to the fact that magic of this type uses
life, specifically in the form of blood, instead of mana.” That's all there is to it.

The Old Gods before they were corrupted were total d-bags. Now it may be a good thing in that the old gods may have intended to become corrupt and that this somehow stops their plan, but that's something else entirely.

Blood magic is lyrium level magic. Using blood to power spells is considered blood magic, but in the DA lore its a hell of a lot more powerful.

[LobselVith8]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

No the reason Spirits are seen as good is because they don't want to enter the mortal realm to cause chaos unlike demons. 

Since Anders says it's because spirits are the Children of the Maker, while the demons spurred the Maker and turned their backs on Him because they were jealous of humanity, that doesn't seem to be the case. Sorry to disappoint your vilification of Merrill.

Vandicus wrote...

Anders' knowledge of it is from the Chantry, as was all of his knowledge of magic(since the Circle of Magi is Chantry run). That does not render his knowledge invalid.

Anders' views on spirits and demons are tied to be religious beliefs. It explains why Merrill doesn't share them as a Dalish elf.

Vandicus wrote...

The Eluvian are portals of elven make. If anyone knows about them, its the Keeper herself.

Marethari gives no indication this is the case.

Vandicus wrote...

Merrill's studies were based off of what a demon told her to do and search for. As such, anything she discovers is likely designed to confirm beliefs of hers that will allow the Pride Demon's escape.

Merrill's knowledge of blood magic came from Audacity. Her study of the lore and the shard came from her own research.

Vandicus wrote...

Morrigan uses the Eluvian as a portal to somewhere else. Read up a bit more on the Eluvian. There are previous cases where one is a door or seeing glass into the Fade. In fact the Dalish Elf story brings up the Black City.

It's never addressed what was actually seen in the Dalish Origin; you're free to speculate all you like, but that's all it is. There's no evidence to suggest it is, beyond a shadow of as doubt, the Black City. And Morrigan explicitly says the Eluvian is a doorway "beyond this world, and beyond the Fade."

Vandicus wrote...

What Marethari did allegedly gives us an advantage, otherwise the Pride Demon would presumably destroy us as it'd come through the Eluvian. Fade level power Pride Demon? Pretty nasty stuff.

Marethari had no basis for why she thought Audacity could escape through the Eluvian, except her imagination, or Audacity itself.

[Shadow Fox]

DuskWarden wrote...

PCs break the laws of the universe they're in.

Irrelevant. Your PC can still do good as a blood mage.

Blood magic hasn't defeated the Darkspawn and Warden's are only needed to keep an Archdemon from reviving it'self they aren't a requirment to kill Darkspawn.

An immortal Archdemon wouldn't have any problem killing everything by itself. The Wardens are required. The opening of Origins tells you this, that all hope was lost until the Wardens were born.

The ritual to become a Warden is a blood magic ritual. Therefore becoming a Warden requires blood magic. Therefore, the good that comes from being a Warden - ie saving the world - comes from a blood magic ritual. It isn't that hard to follow.

I wasn't aware that Morrigan's ritual was considered a good thing...

If you think an uncorrupted old god is not a good thing, then sure. Many people do however.

Wheter the Wardens are a good thing is ultimately debatable considering Wardens themselves do very questionable thing such as the ROC and the events of Legacy.

The world of Thedas would be overwhelmed by darkspawn if it wasn't for the Wardens. They don't have the convenience of sitting around in chantries debating the morality of magic they know nothing about.

No a more accurate comparsion is that Blood magic is to regular magic what a bomb is to a gun both are destructive but the scale is widely different plus regular magic can be resisted via high willpower BM can't.

No. Blood magic, as I stated previously is simply using life instead of mana to power spells. Yes, you could gather large numbers of people and take some of their blood to cast far more powerful spells, but you can do the exact same thing with lyrium. There's even a quote from a codex entry to this effect: “The name, of course, refers to the fact that magic of this type uses
life, specifically in the form of blood, instead of mana.” That's all there is to it.

That would be relevent if the game acknoldeged that you're a Blood Mage it doesn't.

And I have yet to hear a decent reason why letting an amoral powerhungry woman with no concept of love have a godchild is a good thing aside from "the Warden/Alistair/Loghain doesn't have to die"

Tell that to the Dwarves who have to deal with Darkspawn on a daily basis.

Regular magic can be countered rather easily BM can not Lyrium is also harder to get then blood ergo BM is more dangerous.

[Vandicus]

LobselVith8 wrote...


Marethari had no basis for why she thought Audacity could escape through the Eluvian, except her imagination, or Audacity itself.

The crux of your argument is that Merrill somehow knows better than Marethari and all those mages who say making a deal with a demon is stupid. We also have nothing to indicate that Marethari wasn't correct about the whole thing. You're assuming that Marethari gave up her life on a hunch. I think that this is unlikely.

[Shadow Fox]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

No the reason Spirits are seen as good is because they don't want to enter the mortal realm to cause chaos unlike demons. 

Since Anders says it's because spirits are the Children of the Maker, while the demons spurred the Maker and turned their backs on Him because they were jealous of humanity, that doesn't seem to be the case. Sorry to disappoint your vilification of Merrill.

Vandicus wrote...

Anders' knowledge of it is from the Chantry, as was all of his knowledge of magic(since the Circle of Magi is Chantry run). That does not render his knowledge invalid.

Anders' views on spirits and demons are tied to be religious beliefs. It explains why Merrill doesn't share them as a Dalish elf.

Vandicus wrote...

The Eluvian are portals of elven make. If anyone knows about them, its the Keeper herself.

Marethari gives no indication this is the case.

Vandicus wrote...

Merrill's studies were based off of what a demon told her to do and search for. As such, anything she discovers is likely designed to confirm beliefs of hers that will allow the Pride Demon's escape.

Merrill's knowledge of blood magic came from Audacity. Her study of the lore and the shard came from her own research.

Vandicus wrote...

Morrigan uses the Eluvian as a portal to somewhere else. Read up a bit more on the Eluvian. There are previous cases where one is a door or seeing glass into the Fade. In fact the Dalish Elf story brings up the Black City.

It's never addressed what was actually seen in the Dalish Origin; you're free to speculate all you like, but that's all it is. There's no evidence to suggest it is, beyond a shadow of as doubt, the Black City. And Morrigan explicitly says the Eluvian is a doorway "beyond this world, and beyond the Fade."

Vandicus wrote...

What Marethari did allegedly gives us an advantage, otherwise the Pride Demon would presumably destroy us as it'd come through the Eluvian. Fade level power Pride Demon? Pretty nasty stuff.

Marethari had no basis for why she thought Audacity could escape through the Eluvian, except her imagination, or Audacity itself.

Ofcourse they'll say that that how religion always works like how the Christan number of the beast is just Nero's address it doesn't change the fact that spirits are considered benevolent because they lack malicious intent thus Anders is right there is a difference if you don't want to see that well I can't change your mind.

[LobselVith8]

Vandicus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Marethari had no basis for why she thought Audacity could escape through the Eluvian, except her imagination, or Audacity itself. 

The crux of your argument is that Merrill somehow knows better than Marethari and all those mages who say making a deal with a demon is stupid.

Merrill learned blood magic from Audacity. Audacity was trapped in a totem by ancient magic centuries ago. The only way for Audacity to be released is through a mage intentionally releasing it, which is something Merrill explicitly says she will not do. Your argument seems to be that Marethari, who doesn't seem to have done any research on the Eluvian, and simply says one day that Audacity will escape through the Eluvian without even a hint of an explanation as to how she knows this, is correct.

Vandicus wrote...

We also have nothing to indicate that Marethari wasn't correct about the whole thing. You're assuming that Marethari gave up her life on a hunch. I think that this is unlikely.

You're welcome to think that, but I'll put my trust in the person who I know actually did the research, rather than the person who jumps from one baseless conclusion to another.

[LobselVith8]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Ofcourse they'll say that that how religion always works like how the Christan number of the beast is just Nero's address it doesn't change the fact that spirits are considered benevolent because they lack malicious intent thus Anders is right there is a difference if you don't want to see that well I can't change your mind. 

You're saying Anders is right for trying to force his religious views on Merrill, who doesn't share them considering she's a Dalish elf who believes in the Beyond as a seperate realm, and worships the Creators?

[dragonflight288]

Vandicus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...


Marethari had no basis for why she thought Audacity could escape through the Eluvian, except her imagination, or Audacity itself.

The crux of your argument is that Merrill somehow knows better than Marethari and all those mages who say making a deal with a demon is stupid. We also have nothing to indicate that Marethari wasn't correct about the whole thing. You're assuming that Marethari gave up her life on a hunch. I think that this is unlikely.

It has been confirmed by Gaider that Merrill extrapolated information from the eluvian shard. It has been confirmed that Merrill went to every source she could possibly go to in her research on eluvians. Merethari has rejected anything to do with them. She said they should be buried away because their ancestors wished it so. But Merethari can't confirm why she believes that.

And when it comes down to it, it was Merethari, not Merrill, who became the abomination. It was Merethari who got possessed. And before that, she never once was shown giving any evidence about why the eluvian itself was dangerous in place of the darkspawn taint (which the one they encountered had.) Merethari, as an abomination, claimed the demon would use the eluvian to possess Merrill....but only said that after getting possessed herself. And that is the very first (and only) time it's ever mentioned.

It is easier to take the word of someone who has spent years researching the topic, which would make them an expert, over the word of someone who rejects anything to do with the topic in general.

[Vandicus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Marethari had no basis for why she thought Audacity could escape through the Eluvian, except her imagination, or Audacity itself. 

The crux of your argument is that Merrill somehow knows better than Marethari and all those mages who say making a deal with a demon is stupid.

Merrill learned blood magic from Audacity. Audacity was trapped in a totem by ancient magic centuries ago. The only way for Audacity to be released is through a mage intentionally releasing it, which is something Merrill explicitly says she will not do. Your argument seems to be that Marethari, who doesn't seem to have done any research on the Eluvian, and simply says one day that Audacity will escape through the Eluvian without even a hint of an explanation as to how she knows this, is correct.

Vandicus wrote...

We also have nothing to indicate that Marethari wasn't correct about the whole thing. You're assuming that Marethari gave up her life on a hunch. I think that this is unlikely.

You're welcome to think that, but I'll put my trust in the person who I know actually did the research, rather than the person who jumps from one baseless conclusion to another.

Just because you aren't aware of Marethari's knowledge doesn't mean its nonexistant. Yes, I'd rather trust the magic professor with centuries of knowledge rather than the trainee who did not finish learning this knowledge and instead pursued research on the behest of a demon. The truth of the subject is irrelevant to Merrill's research, as the demon determines what Merrill is researching. Merrill's research would inevitably lead her to advance the demon's own agenda. Her research is inherently suspect because the research process is designed to confirm certain beliefs.

[Shadow Fox]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Ofcourse they'll say that that how religion always works like how the Christan number of the beast is just Nero's address it doesn't change the fact that spirits are considered benevolent because they lack malicious intent thus Anders is right there is a difference if you don't want to see that well I can't change your mind. 

You're saying Anders is right for trying to force his religious views on Merrill, who doesn't share them considering she's a Dalish elf who believes in the Beyond as a seperate realm, and worships the Creators?

No I'm saying Anders is right that's there's a difference between a Spirit and a demon if you want to make an issue out of his religious views that's fine but I would greatly appreciate it if you didn't put words in my mouth as I never said anything about his religous views.

[LobselVith8]

Vandicus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You're welcome to think that, but I'll put my trust in the person who I know actually did the research, rather than the person who jumps from one baseless conclusion to another.

Just because you aren't aware of Marethari's knowledge doesn't mean its nonexistant. Yes, I'd rather trust the magic professor with centuries of knowledge rather than the trainee who did not finish learning this knowledge and instead pursued research on the behest of a demon. The truth of the subject is irrelevant to Merrill's research, as the demon determines what Merrill is researching. Merrill's research would inevitably lead her to advance the demon's own agenda. Her research is inherently suspect because the research process is designed to confirm certain beliefs.

Merrill brought the shard with her from Ferelden; she was walking this path long before she even met Audacity. You're welcome to think her study of the shard, and her study of the actual lore, are suspect, but that really doesn't make any sense when Audacity is trapped in a totem, and unable to alter the fabric of reality. Again, Merrill did the research, while Marethari doesn't seem to have done any research at all. She might be older, but that doesn't mean she's wiser about the Eluvian.

[LobselVith8]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You're saying Anders is right for trying to force his religious views on Merrill, who doesn't share them considering she's a Dalish elf who believes in the Beyond as a seperate realm, and worships the Creators?

No I'm saying Anders is right that's there's a difference between a Spirit and a demon

There's a difference between spirits and demons because that's what the Chantry of Andraste teaches. It's a religious difference tied to the Andrastian perception of spirits and demons as Children of the Maker, according to their own mythology.

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

if you want to make an issue out of his religious views that's fine but I would greatly appreciate it if you didn't put words in my mouth as I never said anything about his religous views.

Anders' religious views are the very crux as to why he has a different view than Merrill. You can't act as though that isn't the case when Anders explicitly says that it is.

[Vandicus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You're welcome to think that, but I'll put my trust in the person who I know actually did the research, rather than the person who jumps from one baseless conclusion to another.

Just because you aren't aware of Marethari's knowledge doesn't mean its nonexistant. Yes, I'd rather trust the magic professor with centuries of knowledge rather than the trainee who did not finish learning this knowledge and instead pursued research on the behest of a demon. The truth of the subject is irrelevant to Merrill's research, as the demon determines what Merrill is researching. Merrill's research would inevitably lead her to advance the demon's own agenda. Her research is inherently suspect because the research process is designed to confirm certain beliefs.

Merrill brought the shard with her from Ferelden; she was walking this path long before she even met Audacity. You're welcome to think her study of the shard, and her study of the actual lore, are suspect, but that really doesn't make any sense when Audacity is trapped in a totem, and unable to alter the fabric of reality. Again, Merrill did the research, while Marethari doesn't seem to have done any research at all. She might be older, but that doesn't mean she's wiser about the Eluvian.

Marethari does have the centuries of knowledge about magic passed down from Keeper to Keeper that Merrill doesn't though.

Are you suggesting that Merrill went to the demon despite having the research she needed readily available? All her research previous to the Pride Demon's involvement was not sufficiently useful, and thus limited in detail and utility. The Pride Demon can appropriately direct her to works that will lead her to have misconceptions about what the Eluvian does as well as allow her to repair it. Recall that the Tevinters did not fully understand them yet were able to operate them. Source for texts that show how to repair an Eluvian without fully understanding what they do readily available.

[BlueMagitek]

Really, using the PC as a positive for blood magic really isn't fair, as PCs aren't typically bound to the same rules as everyone else.

Can Blood Magic be used for good? Yes.
Does that make it a good thing? No.

Can Blood Magic be used for evil? Yes.
Does that make it an evil thing? No.

What it seems to be used along with or for in the vast majority of cases involves consorting with demons, "suggestion" and the sacrifice of other people.

[LobselVith8]

Vandicus wrote...

Marethari does have the centuries of knowledge about magic passed down from Keeper to Keeper that Merrill doesn't though.

Which is probably why Merrill had access to the lore on the Eluvian in the first place, as she was training to become the new Keeper.

Vandicus wrote...

Are you suggesting that Merrill went to the demon despite having the research she needed readily available? All her research previous to the Pride Demon's involvement was not sufficiently useful, and thus limited in detail and utility.

Merrill went to Audacity to learn blood magic, as she lacked the sufficient amount of lyrium to cleanse the shard with ordinary magic. We know she knew the spell from the Dalish Origin.

Vandicus wrote...

The Pride Demon can appropriately direct her to works that will lead her to have misconceptions about what the Eluvian does as well as allow her to repair it. Recall that the Tevinters did not fully understand them yet were able to operate them. Source for texts that show how to repair an Eluvian without fully understanding what they do readily available.

The Pride Demon, more likely, manipulated Marethari into letting it loose, considering Merrill spends seven years not releasing Audacity from its prison.

[Shadow Fox]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You're saying Anders is right for trying to force his religious views on Merrill, who doesn't share them considering she's a Dalish elf who believes in the Beyond as a seperate realm, and worships the Creators?

No I'm saying Anders is right that's there's a difference between a Spirit and a demon

There's a difference between spirits and demons because that's what the Chantry of Andraste teaches. It's a religious difference tied to the Andrastian perception of spirits and demons as Children of the Maker, according to their own mythology.

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

if you want to make an issue out of his religious views that's fine but I would greatly appreciate it if you didn't put words in my mouth as I never said anything about his religous views.

Anders' religious views are the very crux as to why he has a different view than Merrill. You can't act as though that isn't the case when Anders explicitly says that it is.

That doesn't make them wrong for catoragizing them fundamently the only difference between a spirit and a demon is Spirits aren't maleovent that's all a demon is a wicked spirit.

So basicly Because I agree that there's a distiction between Spirits and demons that means I agree with everthing else he says I can't just be finding a grain of truth in what they say?

Now  I remember why I hate arguing with you you always latch on to the "Chantry is evil thing" and ignore everything else

[LobselVith8]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Really, using the PC as a positive for blood magic really isn't fair, as PCs aren't typically bound to the same rules as everyone else.

I think it's fair game. The Warden being a blood mage is no different than Duncan's example of Grey Wardens using blood magic to combat the darkspawn, so it's fair to cite the protagonist, as there is already a precedent for using blood magic to benefit the people of Thedas. The Hero of Ferelden is simply another Warden mage using blood magic to defeat the darkspawn. Apostate Hawke being a good blood mage makes him no different than Merrill, who also uses blood magic and doesn't abuse her abilities.

BlueMagitek wrote...

Can Blood Magic be used for good? Yes.
Does that make it a good thing? No.

Can Blood Magic be used for evil? Yes.
Does that make it an evil thing? No.

What it seems to be used along with or for in the vast majority of cases involves consorting with demons, "suggestion" and the sacrifice of other people.

We don't really know what most blood mages are like; the protagonists of Dragon Age are more likely to run into an enemy they will fight, rather than someone they will have a philosophical debate with. Remember, Dragon Age II was the game that gave us blood mage Decimus, who thought Merrill was one of the templars.

[LobselVith8]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Anders' religious views are the very crux as to why he has a different view than Merrill. You can't act as though that isn't the case when Anders explicitly says that it is.

That doesn't make them wrong for catoragizing them fundamently the only difference between a spirit and a demon is Spirits aren't maleovent that's all a demon is a wicked spirit.

That doesn't make them right, either. It simply means their views are tied to their religious beliefs. It's also absurd to think that Merrill will have the same religious views as the Andrastians, since she doesn't share their beliefs.

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

So basicly Because I agree that there's a distiction between Spirits and demons that means I agree with everthing else he says I can't just be finding a grain of truth in what they say?

Are you saying Merrill is wrong to not share Anders' religious beliefs?

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Now  I remember why I hate arguing with you you always latch on to the "Chantry is evil thing" and ignore everything else

I'm not saying the Chantry is evil. I'm addressing that Anders' views on the Fade come from his background as a religious Andrastian. Of course Merrill isn't going to share his religious views on the Fade! She's Dalish!

[Vandicus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Really, using the PC as a positive for blood magic really isn't fair, as PCs aren't typically bound to the same rules as everyone else.

I think it's fair game. The Warden being a blood mage is no different than Duncan's example of Grey Wardens using blood magic to combat the darkspawn, so it's fair to cite the protagonist, as there is already a precedent for using blood magic to benefit the people of Thedas. The Hero of Ferelden is simply another Warden mage using blood magic to defeat the darkspawn. Apostate Hawke being a good blood mage makes him no different than Merrill, who also uses blood magic and doesn't abuse her abilities.

BlueMagitek wrote...

Can Blood Magic be used for good? Yes.
Does that make it a good thing? No.

Can Blood Magic be used for evil? Yes.
Does that make it an evil thing? No.

What it seems to be used along with or for in the vast majority of cases involves consorting with demons, "suggestion" and the sacrifice of other people.

We don't really know what most blood mages are like; the protagonists of Dragon Age are more likely to run into an enemy they will fight, rather than someone they will have a philosophical debate with. Remember, Dragon Age II was the game that gave us blood mage Decimus, who thought Merrill was one of the templars.

Most blood mages live in/rule Tevinter. I think it would be fair to say that they're a lot like the Orlesian nobility. To learn blood magic outside of Tevinter typically requires a demon which almost always ends really badly, if not for the mage, for people around them. Trying to outwit an immortal being isn't as easy as it sounds.

[Vandicus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Marethari does have the centuries of knowledge about magic passed down from Keeper to Keeper that Merrill doesn't though.

Which is probably why Merrill had access to the lore on the Eluvian in the first place, as she was training to become the new Keeper.

Vandicus wrote...

Are you suggesting that Merrill went to the demon despite having the research she needed readily available? All her research previous to the Pride Demon's involvement was not sufficiently useful, and thus limited in detail and utility.

Merrill went to Audacity to learn blood magic, as she lacked the sufficient amount of lyrium to cleanse the shard with ordinary magic. We know she knew the spell from the Dalish Origin.

Vandicus wrote...

The Pride Demon can appropriately direct her to works that will lead her to have misconceptions about what the Eluvian does as well as allow her to repair it. Recall that the Tevinters did not fully understand them yet were able to operate them. Source for texts that show how to repair an Eluvian without fully understanding what they do readily available.

The Pride Demon, more likely, manipulated Marethari into letting it loose, considering Merrill spends seven years not releasing Audacity from its prison.

The base of your assertions is that the Pride Demon somehow was not successfully manipulating Merrill.

Why was it teaching her blood magic then?

[LobselVith8]

Vandicus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Pride Demon, more likely, manipulated Marethari into letting it loose, considering Merrill spends seven years not releasing Audacity from its prison.

The base of your assertions is that the Pride Demon somehow was not successfully manipulating Merrill.

Why was it teaching her blood magic then? 

Manipulating Marethari, which seems to be the end result of giving Merrill that knowledge of specalized blood magic in the first place, as it managed to be free because Marethari released Audacity from the totem.

[LobselVith8]

Vandicus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

We don't really know what most blood mages are like; the protagonists of Dragon Age are more likely to run into an enemy they will fight, rather than someone they will have a philosophical debate with. Remember, Dragon Age II was the game that gave us blood mage Decimus, who thought Merrill was one of the templars.

Most blood mages live in/rule Tevinter.

I didn't realize a census was taken of the Imperium vs. the remainder of the continent of Thedas.

Vandicus wrote...

I think it would be fair to say that they're a lot like the Orlesian nobility. To learn blood magic outside of Tevinter typically requires a demon which almost always ends really badly, if not for the mage, for people around them. Trying to outwit an immortal being isn't as easy as it sounds.

Jowan learned it from library books, the Orlesian Warden can learn it from someone he assumes to be another blood mage; I think it's safe to assume that blood magic can be learned from sources other than demons.

[Vandicus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Pride Demon, more likely, manipulated Marethari into letting it loose, considering Merrill spends seven years not releasing Audacity from its prison.

The base of your assertions is that the Pride Demon somehow was not successfully manipulating Merrill.

Why was it teaching her blood magic then? 

Manipulating Marethari, which seems to be the end result of giving Merrill that knowledge of specalized blood magic in the first place, as it managed to be free because Marethari released Audacity from the totem.

So you're now asserting the Pride Demon is so ingenious that it came up with a convoluted plan that involved manipulating a person which it had never seen or talked to(and might not even know existed if Merrill never mentions her to the demon, and I'm not sure why Merrill would be giving out enough details about her life to a demon in the first place). There's cunning and manipulative, and then there's total BS. There's no way the demon would know that Marethari would show up prior to the completion of the Eluvian, nor could it predict the extent to which Marethari would be aware of or interfere with Merril's activity. This type of plan would fall under Xanatos Roulette.

[Fallstar]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
That doesn't make them wrong for catoragizing them fundamently the only difference between a spirit and a demon is Spirits aren't maleovent that's all a demon is a wicked spirit.

So basicly Because I agree that there's a distiction between Spirits and demons that means I agree with everthing else he says I can't just be finding a grain of truth in what they say?

Now  I remember why I hate arguing with you you always latch on to the "Chantry is evil thing" and ignore everything else

There is no distinction between spirits and demons. The person who posted that spirits don't attempt to enter the real world is wrong. The spirit that posessed Wynne sought to enter the world, and was accepted. So spirits do try to enter the real world.

Again: there is no difference between spirits and demons other than entirely artifical categories that people place them in.

Modifié par DuskWarden, 04 octobre 2012 - 10:43 .