2177 réponses à ce sujet

[BlueMagitek]

LobselVith8 wrote...


I think it's fair game. The Warden being a blood mage is no different than Duncan's example of Grey Wardens using blood magic to combat the darkspawn, so it's fair to cite the protagonist, as there is already a precedent for using blood magic to benefit the people of Thedas. The Hero of Ferelden is simply another Warden mage using blood magic to defeat the darkspawn. Apostate Hawke being a good blood mage makes him no different than Merrill, who also uses blood magic and doesn't abuse her abilities.

It really isn't.  The PC (and the party, usually) is controlled by an outside force and, once again, isn't held to the same standard as the rest of the game world.  Remember all the complaints about having/being a mage in DA2?  The Templar just ignored you, even before they had any reason to.

LobselVith8 wrote...

We don't really know what most blood mages are like; the protagonists of Dragon Age are more likely to run into an enemy they will fight, rather than someone they will have a philosophical debate with. Remember, Dragon Age II was the game that gave us blood mage Decimus, who thought Merrill was one of the templars.

Well, most blood mages are in the Tevinter Imperium and use the blood of their slaves, most of the time.

In DA:O, we see (prominent):

Jowan :: Supposedly learned it from books, not a bad guy, but made a lot of mistakes.
Avernus :: Mind control, demon summoning and experiments on fellow Wardens.
Uldred :: Forcing mages to explode into Abominations, torture, demon summoning.
Zatherian :: Cursed a group of people
Caladrius :: Slaving and Sacrifice
Mad Hermit :: Chilling in the woods

Well, one of them is a decent person, at least (Jowan). 

[Vandicus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

We don't really know what most blood mages are like; the protagonists of Dragon Age are more likely to run into an enemy they will fight, rather than someone they will have a philosophical debate with. Remember, Dragon Age II was the game that gave us blood mage Decimus, who thought Merrill was one of the templars.

Most blood mages live in/rule Tevinter.

I didn't realize a census was taken of the Imperium vs. the remainder of the continent of Thedas.

Vandicus wrote...

I think it would be fair to say that they're a lot like the Orlesian nobility. To learn blood magic outside of Tevinter typically requires a demon which almost always ends really badly, if not for the mage, for people around them. Trying to outwit an immortal being isn't as easy as it sounds.

Jowan learned it from library books, the Orlesian Warden can learn it from someone he assumes to be another blood mage; I think it's safe to assume that blood magic can be learned from sources other than demons.

Reasonable Assertion A: Most mages in Tevinter are blood mages
Reasonable Assertion B: Most mages in Circles are not blood mages
Reasonable Assertion C: Most mages outside of Tevinter are in the Circle
Corrolarlly to Assertion C: Mages from Dalish and Qunari cultures are typically not blood mages

Conclusion: The majority of blood mages(prior to mage rebellion) live in Tevinter

As for the second part, your point? No one contested that there are ways to learn blood magic outside of dealing with a demon. Typically, outside of Tevinter, where this knowledge is legal the authorities seem to have been trying to restrict such knowledge. As such, and based on what the protagonists have seen, most mages outside of Tevinter learn what they know from demons.

[Fallstar]

Also:

Morrigan - helps save the world from blight
Warden (potentially) - saves the world from blight

Zathrian's case isn't as clear cut as you make it out to be. His daughter was raped and murdered remember, that would make many fathers angry enough to do terrible things.

[LobselVith8]

Vandicus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Manipulating Marethari, which seems to be the end result of giving Merrill that knowledge of specalized blood magic in the first place, as it managed to be free because Marethari released Audacity from the totem.

So you're now asserting the Pride Demon is so ingenious that it came up with a convoluted plan that involved manipulating a person which it had never seen or talked to(and might not even know existed if Merrill never mentions her to the demon, and I'm not sure why Merrill would be giving out enough details about her life to a demon in the first place).

Audacity encountered Marethari and Merrill at the same time.

Vandicus wrote...

There's cunning and manipulative, and then there's total BS. There's no way the demon would know that Marethari would show up prior to the completion of the Eluvian, nor could it predict the extent to which Marethari would be aware of or interfere with Merril's activity. This type of plan would fall under Xanatos Roulette. 

Audacity knew Marethari was at Sundermount because it spoke to both of them during the initial encounter, while it was trapped in the totem. Considering that Marethari kept her entire clan at Sundermount for years longer than they needed to be there, then Marethari released Audacity from its prison and allowed it to possess her, I'd say the gambit paid off.

[LobselVith8]

Vandicus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Jowan learned it from library books, the Orlesian Warden can learn it from someone he assumes to be another blood mage; I think it's safe to assume that blood magic can be learned from sources other than demons.

Reasonable Assertion A: Most mages in Tevinter are blood mages
Reasonable Assertion B: Most mages in Circles are not blood mages
Reasonable Assertion C: Most mages outside of Tevinter are in the Circle
Corrolarlly to Assertion C: Mages from Dalish and Qunari cultures are typically not blood mages

Conclusion: The majority of blood mages(prior to mage rebellion) live in Tevinter

None of us know how many mages are living outside the Circle, nor how many of them might be blood mages.

Vandicus wrote...

As for the second part, your point? No one contested that there are ways to learn blood magic outside of dealing with a demon. Typically, outside of Tevinter, where this knowledge is legal the authorities seem to have been trying to restrict such knowledge. As such, and based on what the protagonists have seen, most mages outside of Tevinter learn what they know from demons.

Most mages encountered by the protagonists isn't the same as most mages outside of Tevinter.

[BlueMagitek]

DuskWarden wrote...

Also:

Morrigan - helps save the world from blight
Warden (potentially) - saves the world from blight

Zathrian's case isn't as clear cut as you make it out to be. His daughter was raped and murdered remember, that would make many fathers angry enough to do terrible things.

Well, Morrigan is a party member, but, unless you force her into that specialization, she doesn't use Blood Magic until the end, and for, ultimately, her own, selfish end.  

The Warden is the PC, so I've discounted that.

Yeah, Zathrian had a reason to want revenge.  But he used blood magic to transform others into monstrous beasts, which just allowed them to go on and hurt more people.  That's like the opposite of responsible use.

[Vandicus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Jowan learned it from library books, the Orlesian Warden can learn it from someone he assumes to be another blood mage; I think it's safe to assume that blood magic can be learned from sources other than demons.

Reasonable Assertion A: Most mages in Tevinter are blood mages
Reasonable Assertion B: Most mages in Circles are not blood mages
Reasonable Assertion C: Most mages outside of Tevinter are in the Circle
Corrolarlly to Assertion C: Mages from Dalish and Qunari cultures are typically not blood mages

Conclusion: The majority of blood mages(prior to mage rebellion) live in Tevinter

None of us know how many mages are living outside the Circle, nor how many of them might be blood mages.

Vandicus wrote...

As for the second part, your point? No one contested that there are ways to learn blood magic outside of dealing with a demon. Typically, outside of Tevinter, where this knowledge is legal the authorities seem to have been trying to restrict such knowledge. As such, and based on what the protagonists have seen, most mages outside of Tevinter learn what they know from demons.

Most mages encountered by the protagonists isn't the same as most mages outside of Tevinter.

So you're arguing about verifiable facts now? Thought we were wildly speculating. 

Neither of our positions has sufficient information to make them proveable. I thought we were just hypothesizing what was likely based on what we had seen and what little we know.

Modifié par Vandicus, 04 octobre 2012 - 10:58 .

[Fallstar]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Well, Morrigan is a party member, but, unless you force her into that specialization, she doesn't use Blood Magic until the end, and for, ultimately, her own, selfish end.  

The Warden is the PC, so I've discounted that.

Yeah, Zathrian had a reason to want revenge.  But he used blood magic to transform others into monstrous beasts, which just allowed them to go on and hurt more people.  That's like the opposite of responsible use.

How do you know her goal is selfish. It is possible that saving the soul of an uncorrupted old god is very important to Thedas's future.

You can't discount the PC. Put it this way: you are probably a reasonable human being. If you can pick the blood magic specialization and use it responsibly, what makes you think 90%+ of blood mages can't do the same? The only reason the game shows otherwise is because they need to get the impression across that blood magic can be dangerous, and also that they need you to fight some mages.

Responsible use doesn't come into it in Zathrian's case, his actions were driven by emotions.

[Vandicus]

DuskWarden wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Well, Morrigan is a party member, but, unless you force her into that specialization, she doesn't use Blood Magic until the end, and for, ultimately, her own, selfish end.  

The Warden is the PC, so I've discounted that.

Yeah, Zathrian had a reason to want revenge.  But he used blood magic to transform others into monstrous beasts, which just allowed them to go on and hurt more people.  That's like the opposite of responsible use.

How do you know her goal is selfish. It is possible that saving the soul of an uncorrupted old god is very important to Thedas's future.

You can't discount the PC. Put it this way: you are probably a reasonable human being. If you can pick the blood magic specialization and use it responsibly, what makes you think 90%+ of blood mages can't do the same? The only reason the game shows otherwise is because they need to get the impression across that blood magic can be dangerous, and also that they need you to fight some mages.

Responsible use doesn't come into it in Zathrian's case, his actions were driven by emotions.

Have you met Morrigan? Her viewpoint on the nature of the world is pretty clear. Now her actions may coincide with the greater good of the world, but she's pretty upfront about the fact that she wants power. Also,your following statement is true regardless of whether the Old God soul is beneficial to Thedas. It might become the new tyrant of all Thedas, but that would still constitute high importance to Thedas's future.

Considering that templars will ignore PC blood magic right in front of them in DA:O and DA2, and that the writers acknowledged that it didn't really play a big role like it should, its pretty clearly not much more than a game mechanic for the PC.

[Shadow Fox]

DuskWarden wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Well, Morrigan is a party member, but, unless you force her into that specialization, she doesn't use Blood Magic until the end, and for, ultimately, her own, selfish end.  

The Warden is the PC, so I've discounted that.

Yeah, Zathrian had a reason to want revenge.  But he used blood magic to transform others into monstrous beasts, which just allowed them to go on and hurt more people.  That's like the opposite of responsible use.

How do you know her goal is selfish. It is possible that saving the soul of an uncorrupted old god is very important to Thedas's future.

You can't discount the PC. Put it this way: you are probably a reasonable human being. If you can pick the blood magic specialization and use it responsibly, what makes you think 90%+ of blood mages can't do the same? The only reason the game shows otherwise is because they need to get the impression across that blood magic can be dangerous, and also that they need you to fight some mages.

Responsible use doesn't come into it in Zathrian's case, his actions were driven by emotions.

Let's see there's her overall character and the fact that she refuses to tell the Warden what she intends to do with the child yeah that totally doesn't seem that she's up to something nothing but noble intenions there.


Again PCs break the laws of the game so they do not count  Amalur actually made this plot relevent

[BlueMagitek]

DuskWarden wrote...


How do you know her goal is selfish. It is possible that saving the soul of an uncorrupted old god is very important to Thedas's future.

You can't discount the PC. Put it this way: you are probably a reasonable human being. If you can pick the blood magic specialization and use it responsibly, what makes you think 90%+ of blood mages can't do the same? The only reason the game shows otherwise is because they need to get the impression across that blood magic can be dangerous, and also that they need you to fight some mages.

Responsible use doesn't come into it in Zathrian's case, his actions were driven by emotions.

It's a decent enough guess, especially as it was initially implanted by Flemeth, and who knows what her plans are.

Sure I can.  The PC is controlled by someone who isn't living in the game world.  We don't put up with what the characters are putting up.  If all blood mages are PCs, then sure, it might be responsible.  But it isn't likely.

The only reason the game shows otherwise?  Oh my, such bias.  Blood Magic was given the impression of dangerous in the very first cutscene in features in (Jowan), and he is, as a said, one of the decent ones.  You can also avoid combat with the Hermit and Avernus.

Or, you know, the entire history of Kirkwall.

...is that supposed to help your argument?

[Fallstar]

Morrigan is selfish yes. But if the world were in danger if all of the Old Gods were killed, that would also put her in danger. So she has a motive to do what she does with the DR. People do good things for selfish reasons all the time.

And none of you have addressed my other point. If you could use blood magic responsibly, talking about you, ignoring the fact that you're the PC, imagine the same rules applied as every other NPC. You'd still use it responsibly right? It wouldn't enter your head to go crazy and murder people/mind control them, correct? So what makes you think that for the vast majority of Thedosians, it is any different?

[Fallstar]

BlueMagitek wrote...


It's a decent enough guess, especially as it was initially implanted by Flemeth, and who knows what her plans are.

Sure I can.  The PC is controlled by someone who isn't living in the game world.  We don't put up with what the characters are putting up.  If all blood mages are PCs, then sure, it might be responsible.  But it isn't likely.

The only reason the game shows otherwise?  Oh my, such bias.  Blood Magic was given the impression of dangerous in the very first cutscene in features in (Jowan), and he is, as a said, one of the decent ones.  You can also avoid combat with the Hermit and Avernus.

Or, you know, the entire history of Kirkwall.

...is that supposed to help your argument?

The devs have said that the number of blood mages in Kirkwall was for gameplay reasons and does not actually reflect on the story. So no, not being biased, just following what the devs said. Sometimes gameplay has to take precedence.

[TEWR]

Vandicus wrote...

 Moreover she apparently doesn't really understand the difference between a spirit and a demon.

Actually, she does. Thedosian Mages of the Circle acknowledge that Demons and Spirits are all spirits of the Fade. The distinction made is purely a psychological/religious one, and David Gaider has gone on record to back up the notion that Demons are, in fact, just spirits.

If you look at the surtitles and the dialogue bubbles in banter, when she says the word spirit it's always with a lowercase "s" -- as opposed to Spirits with a capital "S". Meaning she's using the all-encompassing classification.

Vandicus wrote...

Its pretty clear that Justice is not a demon

Ehh... not really. It's honestly up in the air what he is. He's not a typical Demon, but he's no longer the Spirit of Justice we met. He's Vengeance -- which is just another side of Justice, but a slightly darker shade -- who is in my mind just a Spirit and Demon intertwined as one being.

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

You seem to misinterpent my point most Wardens believe they are immune rather then just having a delayed case and it usually takes 30 years before they develop symptoms so Merrill being okay after a decade isn't really hard evidence.

Wardens don't believe they're immune. They just use the word as a placeholder for "I've got 30 years". All of the Wardens we've met acknowledge the truth about the Taint, and still use the word immune anyway. They don't believe they're immune. They just use the word.

Vandicus wrote...

Are you trying to suggest that Marethari took the demon inside herself to hurt Merrill?

Look at the facts:

1) Demons are drawn to powerful Mages. Marethari is the most powerful Mage on Sundermount, and proximity plays a huge part in who Audacity will go after.

2) Demons are drawn to Mages with influence. Marethari has influence over an entire clan, and given time would meet with other clans. Merrill didn't, as she had resigned her status as First of the clan and moved far away from the clan.

3) Audacity has been stated in the short story to only be able to communicate with Mages at a certain distance. The farther away they are from him, the less likely anyone will hear him. Merrill and Marethari -- when they were still on Sundermount -- could just barely make out things he was saying.

4) A Demon of any kind that was sundered from the Fade loses a great deal of power. Same with a Spirit.

5) Marethari thinks that Merrill can't handle herself against a weakened Pride Demon, but thinks she can handle herself against a Pride Abomination, with access to Marethari's powers? There's an obvious flaw in logic there.

Marethari may have thought she was doing the right thing -- when she really wasn't -- but all of this points to her mind having started to grow senile.

Vandicus wrote...

 If anyone knows about them, its the Keeper herself.

Marethari said in both games that she didn't want to research them, ever.

Vandicus wrote...
There are previous cases where one is a door or seeing glass into the Fade.

No there aren't.

Vandicus wrote...

In fact the Dalish Elf story brings up the Black City.

Actually, Tamlen says he saw an underground city, so it's more likely Arlathan that he saw. Saying he saw the Black City is speculation.

[Vandicus]

DuskWarden wrote...

Morrigan is selfish yes. But if the world were in danger if all of the Old Gods were killed, that would also put her in danger. So she has a motive to do what she does with the DR. People do good things for selfish reasons all the time.

And none of you have addressed my other point. If you could use blood magic responsibly, talking about you, ignoring the fact that you're the PC, imagine the same rules applied as every other NPC. You'd still use it responsibly right? It wouldn't enter your head to go crazy and murder people/mind control them, correct? So what makes you think that for the vast majority of Thedosians, it is any different?

Because I walk down the street and talk with people. Heck even a look at anyonline forums would lead me to conclude that most humans can't handle that level of power responsibly, or in the case of Tevinter(where they do have a handle on it), morally.

Also, if mind control was available in DA:O or DA2 I would definitely make use of it. Heck probably real life too.

[Shadow Fox]

DuskWarden wrote...

Morrigan is selfish yes. But if the world were in danger if all of the Old Gods were killed, that would also put her in danger. So she has a motive to do what she does with the DR. People do good things for selfish reasons all the time.

And none of you have addressed my other point. If you could use blood magic responsibly, talking about you, ignoring the fact that you're the PC, imagine the same rules applied as every other NPC. You'd still use it responsibly right? It wouldn't enter your head to go crazy and murder people/mind control them, correct? So what makes you think that for the vast majority of Thedosians, it is any different?

I still fail to see how leaving a godchild in Morrigan's care is a good idea.

Actually we did we posted examples in game that contradict you're argument and that's like saying that substances shouldn't be legally regulated because not everyone will abuse them...just the vast majority do you see how stupid such an argument sounds?

[Fallstar]

Vandicus wrote...

DuskWarden wrote...

Morrigan is selfish yes. But if the world were in danger if all of the Old Gods were killed, that would also put her in danger. So she has a motive to do what she does with the DR. People do good things for selfish reasons all the time.

And none of you have addressed my other point. If you could use blood magic responsibly, talking about you, ignoring the fact that you're the PC, imagine the same rules applied as every other NPC. You'd still use it responsibly right? It wouldn't enter your head to go crazy and murder people/mind control them, correct? So what makes you think that for the vast majority of Thedosians, it is any different?

Because I walk down the street and talk with people. Heck even a look at anyonline forums would lead me to conclude that most humans can't handle that level of power responsibly, or in the case of Tevinter(where they do have a handle on it), morally.

Also, if mind control was available in DA:O or DA2 I would definitely make use of it. Heck probably real life too.

Mind control is available in both games, and you use it responsibly to defeat the darkspawn in DAO and kill various things in DA2.

I don't live there so don't quote me on this, but can't any adult american own a gun? That's the power of life and death right there, but America seems to get along OK. Most people aren't insane. That concept does not translate well into video games, simply because if everyone was reasonable there wouldn't be much combat. In DA2 at least.

[TEWR]

Trying to outwit an immortal being isn't as easy as it sounds.

Demons and Spirits aren't immortal.

To clarify: They will die if they're in the mortal world for too long and haven't found a host or become a Shade.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 04 octobre 2012 - 11:34 .

[Fallstar]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

]I still fail to see how leaving a godchild in Morrigan's care is a good idea.

Actually we did we posted examples in game that contradict you're argument and that's like saying that substances shouldn't be legally regulated because not everyone will abuse them...just the vast majority do you see how stupid such an argument sounds?

It has nothing to do with substance abuse whatsoever. So moving on...

You don't appear to understand what I'm saying, so allow me to clarify. You have provided some in game examples where blood mages have done bad things. But as I said, the devs have stated that we see far more blood mages in game that we should, and those blood mages are far more aggressive than they should be. This is for gameplay reasons. So imagine you are a blood mage. Would you abuse your power, or would you use it responsibly? 

[BlueMagitek]

DuskWarden wrote...

Morrigan is selfish yes. But if the world were in danger if all of the Old Gods were killed, that would also put her in danger. So she has a motive to do what she does with the DR. People do good things for selfish reasons all the time.

And none of you have addressed my other point. If you could use blood magic responsibly, talking about you, ignoring the fact that you're the PC, imagine the same rules applied as every other NPC. You'd still use it responsibly right? It wouldn't enter your head to go crazy and murder people/mind control them, correct? So what makes you think that for the vast majority of Thedosians, it is any different?

You're still letting Morrigan raise a child.  That's not an optimal situation at all.

Um... yeah, no.  You can say that about any mage, really.  We see it in game.  Connor didn't want to cause everyone to suffer horribly, he wanted to save his dad.  Sucks that, you know, all of the elf servants were mutilated and a ton of people were killed.   Responsible use and all that.  People are selfish and will use Blood Magic to further their goals if they could.

DuskWarden wrote...

The devs have said that the number of
blood mages in Kirkwall was for gameplay reasons and does not actually
reflect on the story. So no, not being biased, just following what the
devs said. Sometimes gameplay has to take precedence.

I was referring to Kirkwall's history, not the gameplay reasons.  The entire ocean of blood and what have you.

[Vandicus]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

 Moreover she apparently doesn't really understand the difference between a spirit and a demon.

Actually, she does. Thedosian Mages of the Circle acknowledge that Demons and Spirits are all spirits of the Fade. The distinction made is purely a psychological/religious one, and David Gaider has gone on record to back up the notion that Demons are, in fact, just spirits.

If you look at the surtitles and the dialogue bubbles in banter, when she says the word spirit it's always with a lowercase "s" -- as opposed to Spirits with a capital "S". Meaning she's using the all-encompassing classification.

Vandicus wrote...

Its pretty clear that Justice is not a demon

Ehh... not really. It's honestly up in the air what he is. He's not a typical Demon, but he's no longer the Spirit of Justice we met. He's Vengeance -- which is just another side of Justice, but a slightly darker shade -- who is in my mind just a Spirit and Demon intertwined as one being.

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

You seem to misinterpent my point most Wardens believe they are immune rather then just having a delayed case and it usually takes 30 years before they develop symptoms so Merrill being okay after a decade isn't really hard evidence.

Wardens don't believe they're immune. They just use the word as a placeholder for "I've got 30 years". All of the Wardens we've met acknowledge the truth about the Taint, and still use the word immune anyway. They don't believe they're immune. They just use the word.

Vandicus wrote...

Are you trying to suggest that Marethari took the demon inside herself to hurt Merrill?

Look at the facts:

1) Demons are drawn to powerful Mages. Marethari is the most powerful Mage on Sundermount, and proximity plays a huge part in who Audacity will go after.

2) Demons are drawn to Mages with influence. Marethari has influence over an entire clan, and given time would meet with other clans. Merrill didn't, as she had resigned her status as First of the clan and moved far away from the clan.

3) Audacity has been stated in the short story to only be able to communicate with Mages at a certain distance. The farther away they are from him, the less likely anyone will hear him. Merrill and Marethari -- when they were still on Sundermount -- could just barely make out things he was saying.

4) A Demon of any kind that was sundered from the Fade loses a great deal of power. Same with a Spirit.

5) Marethari thinks that Merrill can't handle herself against a weakened Pride Demon, but thinks she can handle herself against a Pride Abomination, with access to Marethari's powers? There's an obvious flaw in logic there.

Marethari may have thought she was doing the right thing -- when she really wasn't -- but all of this points to her mind having started to grow senile.

Vandicus wrote...

 If anyone knows about them, its the Keeper herself.

Marethari said in both games that she didn't want to research them, ever.

Vandicus wrote...
There are previous cases where one is a door or seeing glass into the Fade.

No there aren't.

Vandicus wrote...

In fact the Dalish Elf story brings up the Black City.

Actually, Tamlen says he saw an underground city, so it's more likely Arlathan that he saw. Saying he saw the Black City is speculation.

Spirits(with big S's) do not seek to enter into the mortal realm, and also have the Seven Virtues thing going on. Demons are a specific subset of spirits(little s) that do seek entry into the mortal realm and have the Seven Sins theme. Merrill doesn't seem to get this distinction.

Is Justice still a Spirit after fusing with Anders? Up to debate, but I would say he's definitely not a demon. He doesn't seek destruction for its own sake, which in regards to level of danger presented is only marginally different, but Justice still doesn't seek to live through humans as demons do. 

As for your points regarding Marethari, I maintain that the demon's plan to possess her would've needed to be impossibly convoluted and based on chance. Also if the Eluvian allowed legitimate Fade to mortal plane access as Marethari tells us, then the demon would've been a full powered one when released and infinitely more dangerous than one which the one being possessed is doing their best to contain(I viewed this as similar to Anders trying to maintain control over his body, there exists a struggle between host and demon that can limit the demon's power) so her actions are logically consistent if this is the case. She also could've just messed up(as you stipulate). Emphasis on could've, we've both got our reasons for believing what we believe in this case but I don't think there's enough info to prove exactly what happened there.

Marethari not wanting to research the Eluvians indicates that she knows something about them which makes them dangerous to a severe extent. If their records show, perhaps, that the Eluvians allowed the demons to cross directly over from the Fade and this was what lead to the destruction of Arlathan and the elven civilization, it'd be understandable that she would not be interested in learning more about them. Demons crossing over into Thedas at unusually high rates sound familiar to a certain leak about DA3?

Also I could've sworn that the Tevinters used the Eluvians for Fade related purposes. I'll see if I can find anything about them.

[Fallstar]

All blood magic is, is the ability to use life - specifically blood - instead of mana to power spells. That's it. All the supposedly  horrifying things blood mages can do, normal mages do too. Mind Control? The school of entropy lets you put people to sleep, give them waking  nightmares and kill their friends and family. Summoning demons? Anders - who hates blood magic - has no problem summoning two shades (Hunger demons) in Legacy.

The impression most people have of blood  magic is because of chantry lies and propoganda. It works on the
majority of people in Thedas, and it seems most players take it at face  value too.

The Warden and Hawke can both use blood magic and good can come of it. And if they learn the mind control talent, then according to the scrolls of banastor they've done some seriously dodgy things to learn that ability. Yet they do good. Morrigan restores an Eluvian. Although we don't know for sure, the chances are she used blood magic. Merril nearly restored an Eluvian through BM.

The ritual to become a Warden, and therefore the reason everyone isn't dead and the world overrun by darkspawn, is a blood magic ritual. Morrigan can potentially capture the soul of an uncorrupted old god through blood magic. There are countless more instances of BM doing good.

The Warden thing alone means that more good has come from use of blood magic than pretty much everything else in Thedas. Although bad things happen with blood magic, that's not because of BM; that's flawed individuals messing with lots of power. You don't need evil, corrupting powers for bad things to happen there. That sort of thing happens daily in the real world. It's called politics.



Re-iterating some previous posts. Blood magic is not inherently evil, neither has more bad come of blood magic than good. Quite the opposite.

Modifié par DuskWarden, 04 octobre 2012 - 11:33 .

[Vandicus]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Trying to outwit an immortal being isn't as easy as it sounds.

Demons and Spirits aren't immortal.

I was under the impression that they were ageless. If you contest the other meaning, well I was not trying to imply invincibility, just agelessness.

[BlueMagitek]

DuskWarden wrote...

All blood magic is, is the ability to use life - specifically blood -
instead of mana to power spells. That's it. All the supposedly
horrifying things blood mages can do, normal mages do too. 

Mind Control? The
school of entropy lets you put people to sleep, give them waking
nightmares and kill their friends and family. Summoning demons? Anders -
who hates blood magic - has no problem summoning two shades (Hunger
demons) in Legacy.

The impression most people have of blood
magic is because of chantry lies and propoganda. It works on the
majority of people in Thedas, and it seems most players take it at face
value too.

The Warden and Hawke can both use blood magic and good can come of it. And if they learn the mind control talent, then according to the scrolls of banastor they've done some seriously dodgy things to learn that ability. Yet they do good. Morrigan restores an Eluvian. Although we don't know for sure, the chances are she used blood magic. Merril nearly restored an Eluvian through BM.

The ritual to become a Warden, and therefore the reason everyone isn't dead and the world overrun by darkspawn, is a blood magic ritual. Morrigan can potentially capture the soul of an uncorrupted old god through blood magic. There are countless more instances of BM doing good.

The Warden thing alone means that more good has come from use of blood magic than pretty much everything else in Thedas. Although bad things happen with blood magic, that's not because of BM; that's flawed individuals messing with lots of power. You don't need evil, corrupting powers for bad things to happen there. That sort of thing happens daily in the real world. It's called politics.



Re-iterating some previous posts. Blood magic is not inherently evil, neither has more bad come of blood magic than good. Quite the opposite.

Most of these have been addressed.

No, actually, they can't. 

"Over time, however, the Imperium discovered types of spells that could only be worked by blood. Although lyrium will allow a mage to send his conscious mind into the Fade,
blood would allow him to find the sleeping minds of others, view their
dreams, and even influence or dominate their thoughts. Just as
treacherous, blood magic allows the Veil to be opened completely so that demons may physically pass through it into our world."

The Entropy school being used for evil has no bearing on the Blood Magic school.

And, you know, exactly what we see in the game.  You can look back at my list of blood mages if you would like.

They are both PCs and aren't bound by the same rules. We've been over this.

BM can be used for good.  It's also used for evil, more often, actually.

Unless the Darkspawn did originate due to the Magisters, in which case it's entirely the fault of blood magic that Wardens are needed in the first place.

[Shadow Fox]

DuskWarden wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

]I still fail to see how leaving a godchild in Morrigan's care is a good idea.

Actually we did we posted examples in game that contradict you're argument and that's like saying that substances shouldn't be legally regulated because not everyone will abuse them...just the vast majority do you see how stupid such an argument sounds?

It has nothing to do with substance abuse whatsoever. So moving on...

You don't appear to understand what I'm saying, so allow me to clarify. You have provided some in game examples where blood mages have done bad things. But as I said, the devs have stated that we see far more blood mages in game that we should, and those blood mages are far more aggressive than they should be. This is for gameplay reasons. So imagine you are a blood mage. Would you abuse your power, or would you use it responsibly? 

If you seriously believe that most people wouldn't abuse that kind of power  then  no offense but I would call you very naive.

No what we've shown you is the vast majority of  NAMED blood mages abused theier power in game.

I wouldn't be a bloodmage period considering that's an instant death sentence not to mention the whole cutting yourself thing I'd stick with good old fire and ice magick:wub:.

Modifié par Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke, 04 octobre 2012 - 11:44 .