2177 réponses à ce sujet

[Sable Rhapsody]

DuskWarden wrote...
The impression most people have of blood  magic is because of chantry lies and propoganda. It works on the
majority of people in Thedas, and it seems most players take it at face  value too.

Ah, yes, the "Chantry is all the evils ever" argument.  ALL of the information we receive on Thedas, even through the codices, is biased.  Whether that source of information is Merrill, the Chantry, Sten, Dog, whatever.  Just because you prefer Merrill's take on blood magic doesn't necessarily mean it's true, or that the Chantry is lying.  The truth, as in real life, probably lies somewhere in the middle anyway.

[TEWR]

Vandicus wrote...

Spirits(with big S's) do not seek to enter into the mortal realm, and also have the Seven Virtues thing going on. Demons are a specific subset of spirits(little s) that do seek entry into the mortal realm and have the Seven Sins theme. Merrill doesn't seem to get this distinction.

Spirit Warriors, Wynne, possibly Cole.

Spirits don't usually seek to enter our world, but are not adverse to it. And that's irrelevant. Merrill clearly understands the distinction, as she always uses the little "s" version of spirits.

Is Justice still a Spirit after fusing with Anders? Up to debate, but I would say he's definitely not a demon. He doesn't seek destruction for its own sake, which in regards to level of danger presented is only marginally different, but Justice still doesn't seek to live through humans as demons do.

A point I've brought up before. He's certainly not a typical Demon, if he truly is one at all. Demons do what they do for pleasure and for the Evulz. They destroy just to be ****s. Justice... he's actually working towards something noble.

His methods may not be the best, but he's certainly not going "MUAHAHAHAHAHAA".

Vandicus wrote...

As for your points regarding Marethari, I maintain that the demon's plan to possess her would've needed to be impossibly convoluted and based on chance

Not really. But I'm almost certain we're not going to see eye-to-eye on this, and I've debated the Merrill topics far too many times in the past. So perhaps we should leave it at that.

Vandicus wrote...

Also if the Eluvian allowed legitimate Fade to mortal plane access as Marethari tells us, then the demon would've been a full powered one when released and infinitely more dangerous than one which the one being possessed is doing their best to contain(I viewed this as similar to Anders trying to maintain control over his body, there exists a struggle between host and demon that can limit the demon's power) so her actions are logically consistent if this is the case

I think I may have gotten confused a bit, so let me state what I'm going to say and if it wasn't based on a misinterpretation of your post then I'll be happy.

Audacity was sundered from the Fade. IF the Eluvians could truly connect to the Fade without some sort of grand ritual -- which, if you'll recall, the Magisters required though we don't know if Eluvians were used -- Audacity would still be trapped in the demonic Buddha statue. He'd still be sundered.

At most, some other demon might start coming through. But Mages are able to sense disruptions in the Veil -- as are Templars, but let's not get into the issue of how they can't sense disturbances in Kirkwall's Veil, as that's a plot hole -- so Merrill would quickly be able to sense that she's opened a gateway to the Fade and smash the thing.

And that's assuming that Marethari's baseless speculations are true. Remember, at this point, she's an Abomination. And Audacity is a Pride Demon, able to perfectly mimic Marethari's voice, gestures, mannerisms, etc. Plus, since he's a Pride Demon he'd have no qualms about revealing his "plan" -- true or not -- especially if it allowed him to get under Merrill's skin and make her less likely to fight him.

I was under the impression that they were ageless

They're not. Well, not unless they find a host, are bound to something, or become a Shade. Otherwise, if they're hostless and not a Shade, they're going to eventually die.

Or was it become a Wisp? I can't remember.

Marethari not wanting to research the Eluvians indicates that she knows something about them which makes them dangerous to a severe extent.

She says she doesn't want to research them because of the Taint that was once within them. The first moment she hears about them, she admits that while she's curious about something new she doesn't want to study something that was tainted. This is what DAO tells us.

If their records show, perhaps, that the Eluvians allowed the demons to cross directly over from the Fade and this was what lead to the destruction of Arlathan and the elven civilization, it'd be understandable that she would not be interested in learning more about them.

If they had records like that, Merrill would've seen them and told Hawke "Yes, they're true.". Merrill's entire life has been to study lore -- as Keeper Marethari was a drill instructor on that regard -- but she hasn't seen them, because they don't exist -- or don't exist within the clan, if they exist at all.

Due to Marethari never having experienced anything to do with magic mirrors, as she says in DAO.

Also I could've sworn that the Tevinters used the Eluvians for Fade related purposes. I'll see if I can find anything about them.

All they managed to do was use blood magic -- and dragonbones -- on them and unlock their fancy telephone powers. That's it.

[TEWR]

I wouldn't be a bloodmage period considering that's an instant death sentence not to mention the whole cutting yourself thing I'd stick with good old fire and ice magick.

The Templars would negate your magic before you even lit a spark. Besides, if Thedas opened up a blood bank and used frost enchantments to keep it all cold, blood magic would be less of an issue.

Still an issue, undeniably. Some people might go "Two liters? I want TWENTY!!!" and try and use that.

But... baby steps.

Besides, if we were to research blood magic -- in a heavily regulated, heavily controlled environment -- we could repeat some of what made Adralla so important. We might find ways to counteract having your blood stolen from you.

Blood magic gave us the phylacteries and the Joinings -- Reaver/Warden -- which have led to some very good things. Blood magic can also heal withered crops and people, as Fallstick shows us.

To ban it wholesale is just foolish. The Chantry and Circles once regulated it and controlled its study/possible use with Adralla, so I don't see why they shouldn't again. Mind control is hardly the only danger inherent in blood magic.

[Sable Rhapsody]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
To ban it wholesale is just foolish. The Chantry and Circles once regulated it and controlled its study/possible use with Adralla, so I don't see why they shouldn't again. Mind control is hardly the only danger inherent in blood magic.

Adralla was a Tevinter mage who fled to Ferelden after several attempts on her life in the Imperium while she was studying ways to counteract blood magic.  Her studies were very specific--she never used blood magic herself, just tried to find ways to nullify it.  And the Ferelden Circle accepted her as a refugee.  It's hardly an example of the Chantry or Circles condoning the use of blood magic (Imperial Chantry notwithstanding).

It's like Defense against the Dark Arts in Harry Potter--just because you're learning to protect yourself doesn't mean you actually learn the methods being used against you.  My guess is that Adralla was welcomed in normal Chantry circles with open arms because she provided them methods to counteract their own maleficarum, as well as ammunition, both political and magical, against the Tevinters.

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 05 octobre 2012 - 12:14 .

[Fiacre]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Most of these have been addressed.

No, actually, they can't. 

"Over time, however, the Imperium discovered types of spells that could only be worked by blood. Although lyrium will allow a mage to send his conscious mind into the Fade,
blood would allow him to find the sleeping minds of others, view their
dreams, and even influence or dominate their thoughts. Just as
treacherous, blood magic allows the Veil to be opened completely so that demons may physically pass through it into our world."

But knowing blood magic doesn't mean you know how to control people's minds. Blood magic, iin its basic form, is to power spells through blood instead of lyrium. Yes, there are spells -- dangerous spells -- that can only be powered through blood. But knowing blood magic -- powering your spells thhrough blood -- doesn't mean that know how to use those blood only pells, just like knowing how to power spells through mana doesn't mean that you know every spell that can be used that way.

Far more dangerous, imho, is that a blood mage can use th blood through others. But Merrill, for all the faults she may have, never does that. Malcolm was a blood mage, but never used it irresponsibly -- be it by draining anothers life force ir using mnd control spells -- Jowan uses his own life force in the mage origin and only uses Isolde's with explicit permission from both Isolde herself and the Warden, the DR is blood magic and we don't see some poor sod being drained of his blood, presumably because the life force used was either Morrigan's own or the Warden's, again with explicit consent.

And as far as the DR goes, I trust Morrigan. In fact, I'd trust her ith my life. In fact, I've done exactly that -- when I accepted the DR and whenever I brough her with me into battle. And she's always proved worthy of that trust and has saved me countless times when I was being overwhelmed. So yes... Whatever she may be planning, I trust that it won't end badly. Maybe it will. Maybe I was wrong about her, maybe her plan goes awry, but for the time being, I trust her, and if she thinks that preserving an Old God's untainted soul is a good idea, I'll do it. Because she's my friend.

[TEWR]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Adralla was a Tevinter mage who fled to Ferelden after several attempts on her life in the Imperium while she was studying ways to counteract blood magic. Her studies were very specific--she never used blood magic herself, just tried to find ways to nullify it. And the Ferelden Circle accepted her as a refugee. It's hardly an example of the Chantry or Circles condoning the use of blood magic

I don't think we can definitively state just yet whether she did or did not use blood magic in her attempts to learn effective counterdefenses against blood magic. Remember, the Chantry wrote that. I'm sure they wouldn't want it known that they condoned the use of blood magic -- even if it was good usage -- and maybe just said "We let her study it, but never practice it".

[Vandicus]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Also if the Eluvian allowed legitimate Fade to mortal plane access as Marethari tells us, then the demon would've been a full powered one when released and infinitely more dangerous than one which the one being possessed is doing their best to contain(I viewed this as similar to Anders trying to maintain control over his body, there exists a struggle between host and demon that can limit the demon's power) so her actions are logically consistent if this is the case

I think I may have gotten confused a bit, so let me state what I'm going to say and if it wasn't based on a misinterpretation of your post then I'll be happy.

Audacity was sundered from the Fade. IF the Eluvians could truly connect to the Fade without some sort of grand ritual -- which, if you'll recall, the Magisters required though we don't know if Eluvians were used -- Audacity would still be trapped in the demonic Buddha statue. He'd still be sundered.

At most, some other demon might start coming through. But Mages are able to sense disruptions in the Veil -- as are Templars, but let's not get into the issue of how they can't sense disturbances in Kirkwall's Veil, as that's a plot hole -- so Merrill would quickly be able to sense that she's opened a gateway to the Fade and smash the thing.

And that's assuming that Marethari's baseless speculations are true. Remember, at this point, she's an Abomination. And Audacity is a Pride Demon, able to perfectly mimic Marethari's voice, gestures, mannerisms, etc. Plus, since he's a Pride Demon he'd have no qualms about revealing his "plan" -- true or not -- especially if it allowed him to get under Merrill's skin and make her less likely to fight him.

I was under the impression that they were ageless

They're not. Well, not unless they find a host, are bound to something, or become a Shade. Otherwise, if they're hostless and not a Shade, they're going to eventually die.

Or was it become a Wisp? I can't remember.

Marethari not wanting to research the Eluvians indicates that she knows something about them which makes them dangerous to a severe extent.

She says she doesn't want to research them because of the Taint that was once within them. The first moment she hears about them, she admits that while she's curious about something new she doesn't want to study something that was tainted. This is what DAO tells us.

If their records show, perhaps, that the Eluvians allowed the demons to cross directly over from the Fade and this was what lead to the destruction of Arlathan and the elven civilization, it'd be understandable that she would not be interested in learning more about them.

If they had records like that, Merrill would've seen them and told Hawke "Yes, they're true.". Merrill's entire life has been to study lore -- as Keeper Marethari was a drill instructor on that regard -- but she hasn't seen them, because they don't exist -- or don't exist within the clan, if they exist at all.

Due to Marethari never having experienced anything to do with magic mirrors, as she says in DAO.

Also I could've sworn that the Tevinters used the Eluvians for Fade related purposes. I'll see if I can find anything about them.

All they managed to do was use blood magic -- and dragonbones -- on them and unlock their fancy telephone powers. That's it.

The activation of a portal like device I believe would have been enough to allow Audacity to escape, based on the symbolism of magic. If connected to the Fade in any way, as the now possessed Marethari maintains(this does bring it into question I acknowledge), it could be used as a conduit to allow a much more powerful version of Audacity through. Basically I'm saying here that magic in Thedas relies on symbolism(in most settings and DA seems to support this with their use of magic items and runes), and the Eluvian is the epitome of a symbolic magical device. As such I find the idea that a demon could use a working Eluvian to port itself at full power over into the mortal plane very plausible.

Now as for the whole shift in the Veil thing, presumably it would not take much time for the Pride demon to port himself over, since walking through a portal in most cases is as simple as taking a single step. I don't think what happened in Kirkwall with mages/templras not sensing the shift in the Veil is a plot hole, but is a chekov's gun for the main villain. With my admittedly wild theory that the Eluvians are what is allowing demons into Thedas for the plot of DA3, I would guess that the Eluvian's somehow do not trigger this reaction either.

[Sable Rhapsody]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
I don't think we can definitively state just yet whether she did or did not use blood magic in her attempts to learn effective counterdefenses against blood magic. Remember, the Chantry wrote that. I'm sure they wouldn't want it known that they condoned the use of blood magic -- even if it was good usage -- and maybe just said "We let her study it, but never practice it".

While it's true that every piece of codex is written by someone in-universe, there's a difference between taking everything with a grain of salt vs. assuming any particular faction is always lying through their teeth.  Otherwise there's no basis for discussion about the lore at all and we might as well all talk ourselves in circles.  While it's possible Adralla used blood magic to study it, it's IMO more likely she didn't.  The Litany can be used by anyone, of any class, and does not seem to require blood magic to employ.

Out of curiosity, which codex sources DO you consider more reliable?  The ones that are written by mages? 

[TEWR]

Vandicus wrote...

it could be used as a conduit to allow a much more powerful version of Audacity through

There's only one demon of Pride known as Audacity. Others would call themselves Hubris, Wryme, etc. So if you mean that a more powerful Pride Demon might come through, then yes it's a possibility.

One I find to be highly unlikely -- impossible even -- as nothing in the lore other then the ramblings of an Abomination backs it up. And back when said Abomination was a person, that person wanted nothing to do with researching the Eluvians at all.

Side note: The hell does Wryme mean?

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Out of curiosity, which codex sources DO you consider more reliable? The ones that are written by mages?

Depends on the codex really. I don't really believe any one codex is automatically right, unless I've got more lore/codexes/in-game evidence/whatever else to help back it up, and even then I'm always operating under the mindset of "This is simply what I do know".

Though for cases like Merrill, I fervently believe Merrill was right and Marethari was wrong.

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

While it's true that every piece of codex is written by someone in-universe, there's a difference between taking everything with a grain of salt vs. assuming any particular faction is always lying through their teeth.

Oh I'm not saying they're lying, necessarily. Just not telling all of the facts.

While it's possible Adralla used blood magic to study it, it's IMO more likely she didn't. The Litany can be used by anyone, of any class, and does not seem to require blood magic to employ.

This is something IanPolaris argues a bit better then I. But I think it was basically summed up as "She needed to practice it a few times to be able to develop the proper counterspell and know it worked".

Not so much that one need be a Mage or even a Blood Mage to use it, but that she had to actually practice mind control -- or other people did -- to develop it.

Vandicus wrote...

I don't think what happened in Kirkwall with mages/templras not sensing the shift in the Veil is a plot hole

It is. Both the Mage Warden and a Templar Warden -- as well as Ser Otto and numerous other Mages -- can sense disturbances in the Veil.

From TVTropes on the nature of plot holes:

Characters suddenly having knowledge that was never passed to them, or vice versa; characters not knowing something they knew last week, or something that anyone in their position must know

Vandicus wrote...

With my admittedly wild theory that the Eluvians are what is allowing demons into Thedas for the plot of DA3, I would guess that the Eluvian's somehow do not trigger this reaction either.

I doubt that's the case. From what we know, it seems these Demons were actively summoned by some third party at the peace-talks that were going on. Never mind how it'd be pretty hard to sneak a giant mirror into a peace-talk, or the fact that Demons don't need a fancy mirror to cross over from the Fade to the mortal world. All they need is a crapton of blood to be shed in certain areas.

Hell, they do that in Kirkwall on a regular basis. Why would Audacity help finish a mirror that can't free him and really wouldn't change much in a city that's already plagued with Demons on a regular basis?

Makes no sense. Sundermount's Veil is thin, the Bone Pit's Veil is thin, Kirkwall's Veil is thin.

Really... there is no place in the Kirkwall area where the Veil isn't thin. So there's really no point for Audacity to work on making a mirror that will link to the Fade when he 1) can't use it himself, as he's sundered from the Fade and trapped (established in-game and in the short story) and 2) Demons already come out of the woodwork on a regular basis and the Templars don't do anything to stop it anyway.

As such, I conclude that it can't really do what Abomination Marethari claims it can, and Audacity was just using her fear, paranoia, and the growing distance between Merrill and Marethari to further make Marethari -- his intended target -- more amenable to letting him go free.

Besides, I would hate for DA3 to say "LOL yup Eluvians are BAD" because that just ruins Merrill's story.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 octobre 2012 - 02:20 .

[Vandicus]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I don't think what happened in Kirkwall with mages/templras not sensing the shift in the Veil is a plot hole

It is. Both the Mage Warden and a Templar Warden -- as well as Ser Otto and numerous other Mages -- can sense disturbances in the Veil.

From TVTropes:

Characters suddenly having knowledge that was never passed to them, or vice versa; characters not knowing something they knew last week, or something that anyone in their position must know

With my admittedly wild theory that the Eluvians are what is allowing demons into Thedas for the plot of DA3, I would guess that the Eluvian's somehow do not trigger this reaction either.

I doubt that's the case. From what we know, it seems these Demons were actively summoned by some third party at the peace-talks that were going on. Never mind how it'd be pretty hard to sneak a giant mirror into a peace-talk, or the fact that Demons don't need a fancy mirror to cross over from the Fade to the mortal world.

Hell, they do that in Kirkwall on a regular basis. Why would Audacity help finish a mirror that can't free him and really wouldn't change much in a city that's already plagued with Demons on a regular basis?

Makes no sense. Sundermount's Veil is thin, the Bone Pit's Veil is thin, Kirkwall's Veil is thin.

Really... there is no place in the Kirkwall area where the Veil isn't thin. So there's really no point for Audacity to work on making a mirror that will link to the Fade when he 1) can't use it himself, as he's sundered from the Fade and trapped (established in-game and in the short story) and 2) Demons already come out of the woodwork on a regular basis and the Templars don't do anything to stop it anyway.

Besides, I would hate for DA3 to say "LOL yup Eluvians are BAD" because that just ruins Merrill's story.

I say I think its not a plot hole because there's an explanation for why they are unable to sense these holes. Not that they suddenly lack the ability to, just that something is preventing their sensing these shifts. 

Also the way I read 

The world of Dragon Age is one on the brink of collapse, and when a desperate gathering in the name of peace becomes the epicentre of a magical blast that decimates the Chantry's leadership, it becomes clear that someone or something is manipulating events to drive the world into chaos.

says to me that demons weren't what broke up the peace talk, but Anders 2.0 did. 

And

A portal between the worlds unleashes hords of demons in the land, 

says Eluvian to me, since that's the only "portal" that we have encountered so far. Just my personal theory though.

*EDIT

In response to the first part which I didn't quote, by more powerful form I mean his whole body basically. Sort've in a Sargeras fashion I see demons as beings who've sent only a portion of themselves over, or something along those lines. Another pride demon would not step through, but his entire being would be able to manifest itself rather than the weakened demon that we fight.

Modifié par Vandicus, 05 octobre 2012 - 02:41 .

[Josielyn]

So, how many dead slaves does it take to summon a pride demon? Sounds like the beginning to a bad joke.

[TEWR]

Vandicus wrote...

Another pride demon would not step through, but his entire being would be able to manifest itself rather than the weakened demon that we fight.

But this isn't possible at all. For the Eluvians to allow Audacity to escape his prison, he would still have to have some connection to the Fade.

He doesn't.

The entire premise that Marethari argues is that a Demon that is sundered from the Fade completely and trapped in a demonic Buddha statue could somehow re-establish a link with the Fade through the use of some 3rd party object which had nothing to do with him being bound there in the first place, and subsequently escape.

It bends logic's ass over a cliff and basically shoves a cactus up it.

A demon that is trapped and no longer has a connection to the Fade cannot re-establish that connection, through any means. They can still visit the Fade if they're in a host's body, but they're still sundered from it once they leave

[Vandicus]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Another pride demon would not step through, but his entire being would be able to manifest itself rather than the weakened demon that we fight.

But this isn't possible at all. For the Eluvians to allow Audacity to escape his prison, he would still have to have some connection to the Fade.

He doesn't.

The entire premise that Marethari argues is that a Demon that is sundered from the Fade completely and trapped in a demonic Buddha statue could somehow re-establish a link with the Fade through the use of some 3rd party object which had nothing to do with him being bound there in the first place, and subsequently escape.

It bends logic's ass over a cliff and basically shoves a cactus up it.

A demon that is trapped and no longer has a connection to the Fade cannot re-establish that connection, through any means. They can still visit the Fade if they're in a host's body, but they're still sundered from it once they leave

Eluvians are magic gateways. Get the gateway functioning and you have a connection between at least two locations. Now if that location is the Fade, it may amplify this particular Pride demon's power since the immediate vicinity might be treated as the Fade in the magical sense, or it might allow the entirety of Pride to pass through amplifying his power enough that he could escape. Not sure why it would be illogical, considering it is magic and all.

Magic only has three Cardinal rules. 2 of them we know have been broken. If the accounts of ancient elven usage of the Eluvians are to be believed all 3 of them have been broken. So the only solid rules we've ever had on what can and can't be done by magic aren't even real rules. Audacity's escape plan as told by Marethari is consistent with a symbolic magic universe from what I can tell. Without strict guidelines on magic, as long as it adheres to the rules of symbolism it could exist.

[TEWR]

Eluvians are magic gateways. Get the gateway functioning and you have a connection between at least two locations. Now if that location is the Fade, it may amplify this particular Pride demon's power since the immediate vicinity might be treated as the Fade in the magical sense, or it might allow the entirety of Pride to pass through amplifying his power enough that he could escape. Not sure why it would be illogical, considering it is magic and all.

Because it's not consistent with the established lore. Magic A is Magic A and all that.

First, Audacity can only use something as a gateway that links to the Fade if he himself still has a connection to the Fade.

Second, proximity plays a large part in what's going on. Merrill is miles and miles away from Audacity during Act 1, and when she was at the base of Sundermount she could barely hear him when he was talking to her -- yet as she and Marethari got closer, she and Marethari could hear him more and more.

Third, there's never been an established moment of the Eluvians linking to the Fade. Never. That's all speculation.

Fourth, Audacity is trapped with no connection to the Fade. Even if the Eluvian could link to the Fade and even be a sort of Fade equivalent for the immediate vicinity, this all amounts to diddly squat since Audacity's still trapped in a Demonic Buddha statue on top of a mountain, miles away from Merrill. It's not going to magically enhance his power when they're miles apart and absolutely nothing links the two together.

Fifth, Morrigan states that the Eluvians link beyond Thedas and beyond the Fade.

Vandicus wrote...

Magic only has three Cardinal rules. 2 of them we know have been broken. If the accounts of ancient elven usage of the Eluvians are to be believed all 3 of them have been broken.

Teleportation, yes.

Bringing back people from the dead? Not so.

Traversing the Fade physically? Also not so in the case of Eluvians.

There's nothing to definitively state -- nor even give enough to speculate, IMO -- that the Eluvians broke the latter two rules.

Audacity's escape plan as told by Marethari is consistent with a symbolic magic universe from what I can tell. Without strict guidelines on magic, as long as it adheres to the rules of symbolism it could exist

I'm not really sure where you get the idea that the magic in Thedas is based on symbols.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 octobre 2012 - 03:20 .

[Vandicus]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Eluvians are magic gateways. Get the gateway functioning and you have a connection between at least two locations. Now if that location is the Fade, it may amplify this particular Pride demon's power since the immediate vicinity might be treated as the Fade in the magical sense, or it might allow the entirety of Pride to pass through amplifying his power enough that he could escape. Not sure why it would be illogical, considering it is magic and all.

Because it's not consistent with the established lore. Magic A is Magic A and all that.

First, Audacity can only use something as a gateway that links to the Fade if he himself still has a connection to the Fade.

Second, proximity plays a large part in what's going on. Merrill is miles and miles away from Audacity during Act 1, and when she was at the base of Sundermount she could barely hear him when he was talking to her -- yet as she and Marethari got closer, she and Marethari could hear him more and more.

Third, there's never been an established moment of the Eluvians linking to the Fade. Never. That's all speculation.

Fourth, Audacity is trapped with no connection to the Fade. Even if the Eluvian could link to the Fade and even be a sort of Fade equivalent for the immediate vicinity, this all amounts to diddly squat since Audacity's still trapped in a Demonic Buddha statue on top of a mountain, miles away from Merrill. It's not going to magically enhance his power when they're miles apart and absolutely nothing links the two together.

Fifth, Morrigan states that the Eluvians link beyond Thedas and beyond the Fade.

Vandicus wrote...

Magic only has three Cardinal rules. 2 of them we know have been broken. If the accounts of ancient elven usage of the Eluvians are to be believed all 3 of them have been broken.

Teleportation, yes.

Bringing back people from the dead? Not so.

Traversing the Fade physically? Also not so in the case of Eluvians.

There's nothing to definitively state -- nor even give enough to speculate, IMO -- that the Eluvians broke the latter two rules.

Audacity's escape plan as told by Marethari is consistent with a symbolic magic universe from what I can tell. Without strict guidelines on magic, as long as it adheres to the rules of symbolism it could exist

I'm not really sure where you get the idea that the magic in Thedas is based on symbols.

Bringing people back from the dead covered Leliana and Anders no? My point with the Cardinal rules was that even the Cardinal rules do not hold true in all cases. As such the "system" doesn't really have any rules. 

Magic in Thedas being based on symbols is based off of the rune system and the way that magical artifacts seem to function. I'm fairly sure the system is not "physics based" (energy constant), which is another common form of magical system. Mages in this system also use foci, which is symptomatic of a system that relies heavily on symbolism. Tracking people by a part of their body(blood in DA) is also another part typical of a symbolic magic system. Part of the whole is connected to the whole, knowing the location of one will help you find the location of the other. That's an example of the sort've "logic" that symbolic magic utilizes. Under such a system its not much of a stretch to use a magic portal to infuse an area with similar properties as to what exists on the other side, and if two locations have a connection allowing them to be regarded as the same place these qualities can be transferred. If Merrill took even so much as a rock from the cave it could be used as a link. Merrill herself could serve as a link as she was a student of the demon and a student-master relationship creates a bond/symbolic link between the two. A bond of mutual hatred would also suffice in such a system(not saying that one exists here, just using this as another example of what I mean by a symbolic link/bond). 

[TEWR]

Bringing people back from the dead covered Leliana and Anders no

Anders, not so.

Leliana? I think that's up in the air. Unless David Gaider's said in the past, "Yes she died, but something happened to reverse her death" I don't think we know for sure if she really died in terms of how Bioware's handling their story right now.

Vandicus wrote...

Magic in Thedas being based on symbols is based off of the rune system and the way that magical artifacts seem to function. I'm fairly sure the system is not "physics based" (energy constant), which is another common form of magical system.

Runes are powered by lyrium, which is raw magic in a sort of crystalline form.

Magic itself -- as in what Mages do -- draws its power from the will of the Mage, and can be amplified by lyrium or blood magic.

See the codex entry on Mana and the Use of Magic, IIRC.

[alhamel94]

TheJediSaint wrote...

Auintus wrote...

strive wrote...

I'd like for the ability when you can kill NPCs via dialogue/cutscene to use blood magic to permanently augment my attributes or items with their life force. Doesn't have to be a significant amount, but would give some RP options.

And that's why people think blood magic is evil.
You don't think maybe you can nudge someone's mind to get them to stand down, expend your own blood to heal others. Blood magic can do terrible things, but that's not all it can do.

The main issue with Blood Magic is that it offers great power for people willing to take a terrible risk.  That in an of itself is not evil, but evil people tend not to be concerned about the consequences of their actions.  As such, that would probably help explain why a good blood mage is about as common as a white rhino.

black rhinos are pretty rare these days.  keep getting hunted for their horns its a shame really

Modifié par alhamel94, 05 octobre 2012 - 04:58 .

[thats1evildude]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

I don't think what happened in Kirkwall with mages/templras not sensing the shift in the Veil is a plot hole

It is. Both the Mage Warden and a Templar Warden -- as well as Ser Otto and numerous other Mages -- can sense disturbances in the Veil.

From TVTropes on the nature of plot holes:

Characters suddenly having knowledge that was never passed to them, or vice versa; characters not knowing something they knew last week, or something that anyone in their position must know

That only holds up if the damage to the Veil COULD be sensed.

The magisters carried out their work entirely in secret. Hundreds of slaves just "disappeared" each year and their rituals were completed in secret chambers. It's reasonable to assume that whatever the magisters did, it COULD NOT be detected by just anyone.

Why would they bother carrying out a secret project if any mage could stroll in the city and say "OMG! The Veil has been deliberately torn here!" I mean, it's not like they had to commit blood sacrifices on the down-low out of fear of the Chantry. The magisters ruled the place.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 05 octobre 2012 - 05:19 .

[Cultist]

I thought Eluvians were like portals and infection were caused because the other exit is located in some infected area. Like opening a portal to nuclear reactor core.

[DadeLeviathan]

This is a tricky issue. I wholeheartedly agree with the world reacting at what race/class/specialization you have chosen. With that said, however, everything costs resources. Any game, even the ones with the largest budgets, have a finite amount of resources. If you put all of your work into making the blood mage have all this reactivity within the world, then you are -- by simple mathematical logic -- going to decrease the amount of reactivity you can give to the other races, classes, specializations, etc.

For a great example of this, just look at Vampire The Masquerade: Bloodlines. The Malkavian clan gets a massive amount of reactivity from the world, whereas the other clans get diddly squat. While I want reactivity for the classes/races/specializations, I do not want the rest of the game to suffer for it. I want a fantastic game overall, not just a good game with a few fantastic parts.

[Sable Rhapsody]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
This is something IanPolaris argues a bit better then I. But I think it was basically summed up as "She needed to practice it a few times to be able to develop the proper counterspell and know it worked".

Not so much that one need be a Mage or even a Blood Mage to use it, but that she had to actually practice mind control -- or other people did -- to develop it.

Perhaps she developed the Litany while in the Imperium.  There she would've been able to easily study its effects on blood magic (given how prevalent it is in Tevinter) without using blood magic herself.  But you do have an excellent point--there's no way to know if the Litany works if you don't have someone to try it on.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Depends on the codex really. I don't really believe any one codex is automatically right, unless I've got more lore/codexes/in-game evidence/whatever else to help back it up, and even then I'm always operating under the mindset of "This is simply what I do know".

That's reasonable. I tend to take a slightly more meta view--I know Dragon Age is all about unreliable narrators, but it's not really great storytelling for the devs to feed us a bunch of codex entries with incorrect or misrepresented information.  I think unless the codex entry in question is a tirade or obviously meant to sway opinions or just plain silly, most of the information is essentially correct.

[Urzon]

thats1evildude wrote...

That only holds up if the damage to the Veil COULD be sensed.

Even if the damage to the Veil couldn't be sensed, I'd imagine that the high percentage of mages going insane, and the demons pouring out of the woodwork, would raise some red flags that there is something wrong with the area in and around Kirkwall.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Urzon wrote...
Even if the damage to the Veil couldn't be sensed, I'd imagine that the high percentage of mages going insane, and the demons pouring out of the woodwork, would raise some red flags that there is something wrong with the area in and around Kirkwall.

Most people probably chalk it up to poor leadership, though who they blame tends to vary.  It even happens here on the forums, where we KNOW about the weakened Veil.  It's just probably not the first thing anyone thinks of.

The Chantry might have a better idea of what was going on since they monitor all the Circles, but I never got the impression of much direct oversight from the Divine unless things are going poorly.  It's more likely they just let each Circle manage its own affairs, and the differences between the Kirkwall mages and mages elsewhere never come off as more than a coincidence, or a circumstance of Kirkwall's difficult political climate.

[Urzon]

Even if the Chantry/Templar/Mages didn't know about the Tevinter sacrifices, it's still not a good idea to keep a Circle in such a blood bathed area. There was the slave trade in general in the city, the year long slave rebellion, anarchy for 10 years, Qunari conquering and converting the city/region, and finally the Chantry conquering and re-converting the region...

The blood red cherry on top was turning the Gallows into a Circle. It most likely filled with all sorts dark emotional magical imprints from the years of slave punishments and whatnot.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Urzon wrote...

Even if the Chantry/Templar/Mages didn't know about the Tevinter sacrifices, it's still not a good idea to keep a Circle in such a blood bathed area. There was the slave trade in general in the city, the year long slave rebellion, anarchy for 10 years, Qunari conquering and converting the city/region, and finally the Chantry conquering and re-converting the region...

The blood red cherry on top was turning the Gallows into a Circle. It most likely filled with all sorts dark emotional magical imprints from the years of slave punishments and whatnot.

People in Thedas who aren't directly involved in magic don't seem to have any idea that areas of death and destruction weaken the Veil.  And it's not like they had anywhere else to put Kirkwall's mages; I suppose they could've sent them to another Circle in the Marches, but given the rivalries between the March city-states, that's probably neither reliable nor feasible.

I'm not saying it was a GOOD idea putting mages in a place like Kirkwall, I think it was stupid too.  But they really had no way of knowing, and no feasible alternative.