2177 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

Fiacre wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Most of these have been addressed.

No, actually, they can't. 

"Over time, however, the Imperium discovered types of spells that could only be worked by blood. Although lyrium will allow a mage to send his conscious mind into the Fade,
blood would allow him to find the sleeping minds of others, view their
dreams, and even influence or dominate their thoughts. Just as
treacherous, blood magic allows the Veil to be opened completely so that demons may physically pass through it into our world."

But knowing blood magic doesn't mean you know how to control people's minds. Blood magic, iin its basic form, is to power spells through blood instead of lyrium. Yes, there are spells -- dangerous spells -- that can only be powered through blood. But knowing blood magic -- powering your spells thhrough blood -- doesn't mean that know how to use those blood only pells, just like knowing how to power spells through mana doesn't mean that you know every spell that can be used that way.

The problem - how can you tell?

Once you know the basics of blood magic, you can go from there and perfect/experiment to learn more.
How do you control that?
How do you know a blood mage doesn't  already know how to influence someone or has no plans to learn it?

You don't. You can't know. And you can't risk it either.
So you ban it completely.

And as far as the DR goes, I trust Morrigan. In fact, I'd trust her ith my life.

Too much trust required. And not just in Morrigan.

Because in order for Morrigan to be correct - everything she assumes has to be correct too.
All of her theoreis about souls, babies and darkspawn.
Her interpretation fo the Grimmorie and the magic rituals.
And you also have to start from a very questionable assumption that everything Flemeth told her was the truth.
And knowing Flemeth that is highly unlikely.

[Fallstar]

BlueMagitek wrote...
Most of these have been addressed.

No, actually, they can't. 

"Over time, however, the Imperium discovered types of spells that could only be worked by blood. Although lyrium will allow a mage to send his conscious mind into the Fade,
blood would allow him to find the sleeping minds of others, view their
dreams, and even influence or dominate their thoughts. Just as
treacherous, blood magic allows the Veil to be opened completely so that demons may physically pass through it into our world."

The Entropy school being used for evil has no bearing on the Blood Magic school.

And, you know, exactly what we see in the game.  You can look back at my list of blood mages if you would like.

They are both PCs and aren't bound by the same rules. We've been over this.

BM can be used for good.  It's also used for evil, more often, actually.

Unless the Darkspawn did originate due to the Magisters, in which case it's entirely the fault of blood magic that Wardens are needed in the first place.

What I am saying is that although blood magic can be used for mind control, so can the entropy school. If the ability to control minds is one of the reasons blood magic should be banned, why isn't entropy banned either? Or do you think that the school of entropy should be banned too? You can't pick and choose and say blood magic mind control bad, entropic mind control good. 

The chantry, which knows next to nothing about darkspawn, claims it was the fault of the magisters. The dwarves, whose knowledge on the darkspawn is unparalleled, claim the chantry is wrong. It's not really a hard decision to make as to which to believe. If a group of world renowned particle phyisicists told you the LHC was safe, but a group of ignorant journalists told you it wasn't, who would you believe? Same principle here.

We have seen two games where blood magic is generally used for evil, I'll give you that. In those games however, swords and axes are also used to do terrible evil. In fact, far, far worse damage has come from simple weapons in DA so far than through Blood Magic. Should swords and axes be banned? Of course not. It isn't the fault of the tool, it is the fault of the person wielding it. Same with Blood Magic.

[Fiacre]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Fiacre wrote...

But knowing blood magic doesn't mean you know how to control people's minds. Blood magic, iin its basic form, is to power spells through blood instead of lyrium. Yes, there are spells -- dangerous spells -- that can only be powered through blood. But knowing blood magic -- powering your spells thhrough blood -- doesn't mean that know how to use those blood only pells, just like knowing how to power spells through mana doesn't mean that you know every spell that can be used that way.

The problem - how can you tell?

Once you know the basics of blood magic, you can go from there and perfect/experiment to learn more.
How do you control that?
How do you know a blood mage doesn't  already know how to influence someone or has no plans to learn it?

You don't. You can't know. And you can't risk it either.
So you ban it completely.

But the idea that all blood mages are the evilz because of mibd control is wrong, since not all blood mages would know how to do that. I'm not saying the Chantry is completely wrong with banning blood magic, but I think sacrificing others is what makes blood magic dangerous moreso than more obscure spells like mind control, that not every random blood mage will have learned. (I mean, IIRC we meet one blood mage that is said to explicitly have that power -- Avernus. And before he decided to use the other Wardens as test material, he was trying to overthrow a tyrant with them. and even a non blood mage Warden can easily decide that the pros of his research outweigh the cons. And the "mind control" the Warden can learn is aof a fr less subtle and more combat suited nature than what Avernus describes.)

Too much trust required. And not just in Morrigan.

Because in order for Morrigan to be correct - everything she assumes has to be correct too.
All of her theoreis about souls, babies and darkspawn.
Her interpretation fo the Grimmorie and the magic rituals.
And you also have to start from a very questionable assumption that everything Flemeth told her was the truth.
And knowing Flemeth that is highly unlikely.

But see, that's the difference -- I think it's worth it and I don't think it's too much trust required. Of course, I also don't think Flemeth is one of the bad guys and mostly "kill" her because I've promised Morrigan and Flemeth, if asked to tell the truth, gives me no reason to believe she won't be threat to Morrigan even if she' not one to myself, Ferelden or Thedas as a whole. Quite the opposite, in fact.

[Fallstar]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

If you seriously believe that most people wouldn't abuse that kind of power  then  no offense but I would call you very naive.

What do you mean? Blood mages in Thedas have the tiniest fraction of the power that a first world leader has at their fingertips today, but we're still all here aren't we? If the wrong person was to get into power in the modern world, they would abuse that power for sure. But the simple fact is, most people aren't terribly evil. So the chances of it happening are statistically low. Same principle in DA. The only reason you see so many 'evil' blood mages is for gameplay reasons.

No what we've shown you is the vast majority of  NAMED blood mages abused theier power in game.

I wouldn't be a bloodmage period considering that's an instant death sentence not to mention the whole cutting yourself thing I'd stick with good old fire and ice magick:wub:.

4/7 is not a vast majority.  It is a slight majority, and the sample size is so small that anything you derive from it is completely meaningless.

Modifié par DuskWarden, 05 octobre 2012 - 09:23 .

[Fallstar]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Ah, yes, the "Chantry is all the evils ever" argument.  ALL of the information we receive on Thedas, even through the codices, is biased.  Whether that source of information is Merrill, the Chantry, Sten, Dog, whatever.  Just because you prefer Merrill's take on blood magic doesn't necessarily mean it's true, or that the Chantry is lying.  The truth, as in real life, probably lies somewhere in the middle anyway.

All codex entries are the work of someone in Thedas. So they are potentially biased. Which is identical to historical records in the real world. You can still do the exact same thing you do in the real world and analyse them to determine their reliability. Just ask a few simple questions:

1. Does the author have anything to gain by writing this in a particular light?
2. Do other, independent, sources back this up, or do they contradict it?
3. Is the authour knowledgeable on the subject at hand?

Now let's ask those questions about the chantry and the story about the magisters.

1. Yes. By blaming the mages, the chantry can give people a reason for why the mages must be locked away, as well as creating an aura of fear and hatred around them, so that it will be hard for mages to ever rebel. This allows the chantry to contain the thing it can't control. And like most organizations in power, they want everything to be contained or under their control.

2. The dwarven accounts contradict the chantry's story. In addition, Corypheus - a first hand witness - states that the city was never golden, and was black before they entered it. That begs the question about what kind of being the Maker is if it does exist, that it dwells in a corrupted black city, but that's neither here nor there. The point is that the city was never golden, so there are falsehoods in the chantry's story.

3. Nope. The chantry is neither the Wardens nor the Dwarves, therefore they have only scant knowledge on the darkspawn.

So to conclude, the chantry's account is written by an organization which has everything to gain by blaming the mages, is contradicted by the dwarves, is contradicted by first hand accounts, and is written by people with next to no knowledge on the subject. If you held that account to the same standard historical accounts are held in real life, it's sole use would be showing the chantry's viewpoint, due to just how unreliable it is.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

If we compare the essences of power between Blood Mages in DA and Reaper tech used by Cerberus in ME and the purpose of their uses, we can conclude that in Reaper Invasion situation using reaper tech is justifiable to the goal of beating them. But Blood Mages are bunch of psychopaths who want the power to expand chaos on the land and satisfy their pathetic wishes.
Nah, burn the blood mages on fire before more destruction is made.

[BlueMagitek]

DuskWarden wrote...

What I am saying is that although blood magic can be used for mind control, so can the entropy school. If the ability to control minds is one of the reasons blood magic should be banned, why isn't entropy banned either? Or do you think that the school of entropy should be banned too? You can't pick and choose and say blood magic mind control bad, entropic mind control good. 

The chantry, which knows next to nothing about darkspawn, claims it was the fault of the magisters. The dwarves, whose knowledge on the darkspawn is unparalleled, claim the chantry is wrong. It's not really a hard decision to make as to which to believe. If a group of world renowned particle phyisicists told you the LHC was safe, but a group of ignorant journalists told you it wasn't, who would you believe? Same principle here.

We have seen two games where blood magic is generally used for evil, I'll give you that. In those games however, swords and axes are also used to do terrible evil. In fact, far, far worse damage has come from simple weapons in DA so far than through Blood Magic. Should swords and axes be banned? Of course not. It isn't the fault of the tool, it is the fault of the person wielding it. Same with Blood Magic.

The mind control used by the Blood Magic school is different from that used by the Entropy School.  The Blood Magic school is more than nightmares and paralysis, it allows for the direct influence of other people and demon summoning.  We aren't even talking about the Entropy school at all; I presented evidence that there are unique blood magic spells that can only be done through blood magic when you had claimed otherwise.

And then we have Legacy.  We also have Awakening, where we're sent closer to the Black City than anywhere else in the Fade by a Darkspawn.  Once again, you're ignoring the point.  

Perhaps I should remind you of my earlier post in this topic:

BlueMagitek wrote...

Really, using the PC as a positive
for blood magic really isn't fair, as PCs aren't typically bound to the
same rules as everyone else.

Can Blood Magic be used for good? Yes.
Does that make it a good thing? No.

Can Blood Magic be used for evil? Yes.
Does that make it an evil thing? No.

What
it seems to be used along with or for in the vast majority of cases
involves consorting with demons, "suggestion" and the sacrifice of other
people.

Blood Magic is used by the majority of its wielders, which I have shown you, for evil rather than any sort of good.  You can claim that it's just a tool and it is based on the wielder and what have you, but when we spoke about Zathrian, he used blood magic when he was enraged.  To curse a number of people into werewolves who then went on to harm other innocent people.  Of the wielders of Blood Magic that we have seen in game, there were, what, one responsible one, one that regretted learning it in the first place and a host of evil or at the very least horribly abusing it? 

[Sable Rhapsody]

DuskWarden wrote...
So to conclude, the chantry's account is written by an organization which has everything to gain by blaming the mages, is contradicted by the dwarves, is contradicted by first hand accounts, and is written by people with next to no knowledge on the subject. If you held that account to the same standard historical accounts are held in real life, it's sole use would be showing the chantry's viewpoint, due to just how unreliable it is.

The Chantry's been around for hundreds of years now.  I'd say it's a bit extreme to say they have no knowledge of the Blight.  They are one of the few extranational organizations to keep historical records, centuries of records by now.  I don't think the Chantry just holes itself up each Blight and makes up stuff about the darkspawn.  

Rather tellingly, the Wardens who know the most about darkspawn don't officially ascribe to any common theory of the Blight's origins, Chantry or dwarven or otherwise.  The dwarves are usually secretive with outsiders, and Corypheus is crazy.  They might have more firsthand knowledge of the darkspawn, but that doesn't make the knowledge they actually gave us through codices or in-game any better.  

To be clear, I'm not one of the crazy templar supporters we get around here, and I hardly think the Chantry is always blameless or truthful.  But there's no reason to believe they're a worse source of information than anyone else.  Religious organizations IRL keep historical records too, some of the best, and they're not always corrupted by any one agenda.  Muslim scholars preserved Greco-Roman writings and histories, including the works that sparked the European Renaissance.  The Catholic Church did a lot of book burning, but they also form an excellent historical source for the European Middle Ages, when they were the closest thing to a multinational source of authority.  No one solely manipulates knowledge for gain, and no one's always honest.

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 05 octobre 2012 - 12:27 .

[dragonflight288]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

DuskWarden wrote...
So to conclude, the chantry's account is written by an organization which has everything to gain by blaming the mages, is contradicted by the dwarves, is contradicted by first hand accounts, and is written by people with next to no knowledge on the subject. If you held that account to the same standard historical accounts are held in real life, it's sole use would be showing the chantry's viewpoint, due to just how unreliable it is.

The Chantry's been around for hundreds of years now.  I'd say it's a bit extreme to say they have no knowledge of the Blight.  They are one of the few extranational organizations to keep historical records, centuries of records by now.  I don't think the Chantry just holes itself up each Blight and makes up stuff about the darkspawn. 

And yet after the fourth blight, all of humanity thought the darkspawn had been wiped away for good and there wouldn't be another blight. All they'd have to do was go ask their dwarven neighbors if that was the case. They didn't. All they'd have to do is ask the surface dwarves who trade with Orzammar how things are. There is no such evidence that they do.

The Chantry (and surfacers in general) are VERY ignorant when it comes to darkspawn. For four hundred years, the entire surface was deluding themselves about the darkspawn. Heck, even in the beginning of Origins, most surfacers were deluding themselves by saying it wasn't a blight....just a very large and unusually organized darkspawn raid.

Rather tellingly, the Wardens who know the most about darkspawn don't officially ascribe to any common theory of the Blight's origins, Chantry or dwarven or otherwise.  The dwarves are usually secretive with outsiders, and Corypheus is crazy.  They might have more firsthand knowledge of the darkspawn, but that doesn't make the knowledge they actually gave us through codices or in-game any better. 

 Not necessarily true. In Orgins, there is that elf who came down to help the dwarves fight the darkspawn. Initially, the dwarves rejected him because from their experience, almost every surfacer couldn't care less about their burden of fighting darkspawn day in and day out. That's why they have so much respect for Grey Wardens, because the wardens are the only surfacers who even come close to helping them. And that elven topsider was treated with honor, as if he were a dwarf, because he helped. The dwarves aren't so secretive as they are isolationist. But they're pretty open about the darkspawn.

"Why should I worry about surface concerns? You blight is my everyday."

To be clear, I'm not one of the crazy templar supporters we get around here, and I hardly think the Chantry is always blameless or truthful.  But there's no reason to believe they're a worse source of information than anyone else.  Religious organizations IRL keep historical records too, some of the best, and they're not always corrupted by any one agenda.  Muslim scholars preserved Greco-Roman writings and histories, including the works that sparked the European Renaissance.  The Catholic Church did a lot of book burning, but they also form an excellent historical source for the European Middle Ages, when they were the closest thing to a multinational source of authority.  No one solely manipulates knowledge for gain, and no one's always honest.

But this isn't real life religions. The Chantry took out the Canticle of Shartan from the Chant of Light when it became politically inconvenient, and they didn't even include the Canticle of Mafarath (as we discover in Awakening.)

We shouldn't compare the Chantry to real world religions. It isn't a real world religion. It has its own beliefs, its own history, its own flaws, and its own practices.

When was the last time Islam or Catholicism used phylacteries? When was the last time Lutherans or Mormons gave their personal soldiers lyrium? It simply isn't the case, so we shouldn't compare them to real world religions.

[vortex216]

blood magic is by nature evil. using the life force of people (and other living creatures) is corrupt. you can still be a good person with blood magic, just an oblivious one. im anti-templar all the way and even i despise blood magic. it would be very interesting how npc will respond to blood magic users. (and is it it just me or is blood magic very similar to blood-bending from avatar!?)

[Lotion Soronarr]

Fiacre wrote...
*SNIP*

As I said - you can't risk it.

Too much trust required. And not just in Morrigan.

Because in order for Morrigan to be correct - everything she assumes has to be correct too.
All of her theoreis about souls, babies and darkspawn.
Her interpretation fo the Grimmorie and the magic rituals.
And you also have to start from a very questionable assumption that everything Flemeth told her was the truth.
And knowing Flemeth that is highly unlikely.

But see, that's the difference -- I think it's worth it and I don't think it's too much trust required. Of course, I also don't think Flemeth is one of the bad guys and mostly "kill" her because I've promised Morrigan and Flemeth, if asked to tell the truth, gives me no reason to believe she won't be threat to Morrigan even if she' not one to myself, Ferelden or Thedas as a whole. Quite the opposite, in fact.

Doesn't change the facts that are many assumptions and "what if's" that all have to fall in place.

See, I have little doubt Morrigan thinks what she sez is correct....but is it? She learned it from very untrustworthy sources.

[Sable Rhapsody]

dragonflight288 wrote...
But this isn't real life religions. The Chantry took out the Canticle of Shartan from the Chant of Light when it became politically inconvenient, and they didn't even include the Canticle of Mafarath (as we discover in Awakening.)

We shouldn't compare the Chantry to real world religions. It isn't a real world religion. It has its own beliefs, its own history, its own flaws, and its own practices.

The writers don't create this stuff in a vacuum--fantasy stories, especially darker ones like Dragon Age, often draw on real-world inspiration and events to give their settings less of a "High Fantasy" feel and more of a weighty realism.  The Chantry is no exception.  

I'm pointing out very general similarities, not trying to say there's a one-to-one allegory between the Chantry and any real world religion. 

dragonflight288 wrote...
The Chantry (and surfacers in general) are VERY ignorant when it comes to darkspawn. For four hundred years, the entire surface was deluding themselves about the darkspawn. Heck, even in the beginning of Origins, most surfacers were deluding themselves by saying it wasn't a blight....just a very large and unusually organized darkspawn raid. 

Surfacers tend to be ignorant about darkspawn for the same reason dwarves are ignorant about surface life--there's not a lot of communication going on in either direction, coupled with a fair amount of resentment.  I don't think it's fair to just pin all the blame on the surfacers.  Besides, we saw what happens when the Chantry, which is still the major source of historical information in Thedas, tries to make contact with the dwarves.  Even peaceful, non-intrusive conversion becomes a huge sticking point.  (Though I don't think they went about it in the best way, and they certainly were not justified in the Exalted Marches that can threaten the end of Origins.)

The dwarves are open with two kinds of people who aren't them--Wardens, and people who fight darkspawn.  The two are usually one and the same.  Who do the Wardens share information about the darkspawn with?  Nobody.  I know they have their reasons, but they're not the open, friendly sort.  How is anyone else supposed to get information about the darkspawn if the dwarves won't give it up unless you're actually fighting, and the Wardens keep their lips sealed?

When there are codex inconsistencies, they're usually there for a good in-game reason beyond propaganda.  Again, I don't think the Chantry version of events was 100% right, but I don't think it was a deliberate lie either.  It's most likely part moral allegory, part as much of the facts as they could piece together.  They were at least right about the magisters trying to enter the Fade if Corypheus is any indication. At any rate, he's riddled with the darkspawn taint.  The dwarves know little about magic, so they would be as ignorant about that magical element as the Chantry are about the Deep Roads.

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 05 octobre 2012 - 11:31 .

[KainD]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

As I said - you can't risk it.

You can't, I would. And the fact that most poeple think like you irl is actually sad to me, but then again you will just call me a fool. 

Modifié par KainD, 06 octobre 2012 - 01:04 .

[dragonflight288]

[quote]Sable Rhapsody wrote...

[quote]dragonflight288 wrote...
But this isn't real life religions. The Chantry took out the Canticle of Shartan from the Chant of Light when it became politically inconvenient, and they didn't even include the Canticle of Mafarath (as we discover in Awakening.)

We shouldn't compare the Chantry to real world religions. It isn't a real world religion. It has its own beliefs, its own history, its own flaws, and its own practices.
[/quote]

The writers don't create this stuff in a vacuum--fantasy stories, especially darker ones like Dragon Age, often draw on real-world inspiration and events to give their settings less of a "High Fantasy" feel and more of a weighty realism.  The Chantry is no exception.  

I'm pointing out very general similarities, not trying to say there's a one-to-one allegory between the Chantry and any real world religion. [/quote]

Fair enough point. But we can also compare almost anything historical if we look hard enough.

For example: Orzammar seems to have mayan archetecture or a close enough equivalent, and the last stand of the 500 casteless at Kal'Hirol may very well parallel King Leonidas and the 300 spartans.

In the end, The Chantry has been shown to edit its own scripture when it becomes inconvenient for them politically, so I question the authenticity of several things the chantry claims. (I'm not blind to other cultures doing it too. Dwarven Noble, you are erased from the Memories so everything you've done your entire life is erased, and you suddenly never existed in the eyes of Orzammar.)

I understand that when a First Enchanter writes a codex, it's going to be more favorable for mages, or when the Chantry writes a codex, it's going to be more favorable for templars, or Orlais when it comes to the Dales. And they do have written records. But let's just keep in mind that not everything should be taken at face value.

[quote][quote]dragonflight288 wrote...
The Chantry (and surfacers in general) are VERY ignorant when it comes to darkspawn. For four hundred years, the entire surface was deluding themselves about the darkspawn. Heck, even in the beginning of Origins, most surfacers were deluding themselves by saying it wasn't a blight....just a very large and unusually organized darkspawn raid. 
[/quote]

Surfacers tend to be ignorant about darkspawn for the same reason dwarves are ignorant about surface life--there's not a lot of communication going on in either direction, coupled with a fair amount of resentment.  I don't think it's fair to just pin all the blame on the surfacers.  Besides, we saw what happens when the Chantry, which is still the major source of historical information in Thedas, tries to make contact with the dwarves.  Even peaceful, non-intrusive conversion becomes a huge sticking point.  (Though I don't think they went about it in the best way, and they certainly were not justified in the Exalted Marches that can threaten the end of Origins.)

The dwarves are open with two kinds of people who aren't them--Wardens, and people who fight darkspawn.  The two are usually one and the same.  Who do the Wardens share information about the darkspawn with?  Nobody.  I know they have their reasons, but they're not the open, friendly sort.  How is anyone else supposed to get information about the darkspawn if the dwarves won't give it up unless you're actually fighting, and the Wardens keep their lips sealed?

When there are codex inconsistencies, they're usually there for a good in-game reason beyond propaganda.  Again, I don't think the Chantry version of events was 100% right, but I don't think it was a deliberate lie either.  It's most likely part moral allegory, part as much of the facts as they could piece together.  They were at least right about the magisters trying to enter the Fade if Corypheus is any indication. At any rate, he's riddled with the darkspawn taint.  The dwarves know little about magic, so they would be as ignorant about that magical element as the Chantry are about the Deep Roads.
[/quote][/quote]

Again, that's true and not in dispute. But Maric and Cailan were invited to Orzammar as guests of honor and a grand proving was held in their honor. The Chantry has a monopoly on the lyrium trade. Smugglers go out of their way to get lyrium through illegal methods because a fortune can be made in that market. Mages use lyrium for their magic rituals and templars ingest it.

There's enough trade with the surface going on that the surface should be aware that the darkspawn are still a very real threat.

You can't tell me the Chantry didn't know that the dwarves were fighting darkspawn for four hundred years the darkspawn were supposedly extinct if they've been trading with them for the entire time period. And if they didn't know, then they were willfully ignorant.

[Josielyn]

I would be happy if someone discovered other ways to make blood magic usable by non-mages, there has to be more than just Reavers drinking dragon blood and Grey Wardens drinking Darkspawn blood. There are phylacteries, but what else? I would really love it if Bioware could introduce a character who was a well meaning and successful Blood Mage who beat every stereotype and completely evaded the whole demon problem (Maybe a wiser Dalish Clan than Merrill's?). Character name ____, she/he is not your typical blood mage.

[TEWR]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Surfacers tend to be ignorant about darkspawn for the same reason dwarves are ignorant about surface life--there's not a lot of communication going on in either direction, coupled with a fair amount of resentment

Actually, the Dwarves often entertain guests and allow people into their halls. The Hall of Heroes was made so that people who venture to Orzammar from the surface can witness the main points of Dwarven society -- and to remind those that want to leave what they're abandoning.

As dragonflight said, there's actually a lot of contact going on between the Dwarves and the surface. That the surface hasn't ever once offered to help them -- unless you play a Dwarf in DAO -- is very telling, because they're ignoring a very real threat unless it's on their doorstep.

[dragonflight288]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Surfacers tend to be ignorant about darkspawn for the same reason dwarves are ignorant about surface life--there's not a lot of communication going on in either direction, coupled with a fair amount of resentment

Actually, the Dwarves often entertain guests and allow people into their halls. The Hall of Heroes was made so that people who venture to Orzammar from the surface can witness the main points of Dwarven society -- and to remind those that want to leave what they're abandoning.

As dragonflight said, there's actually a lot of contact going on between the Dwarves and the surface. That the surface hasn't ever once offered to help them -- unless you play a Dwarf in DAO -- is very telling, because they're ignoring a very real threat unless it's on their doorstep.

And even then, didn't take the threat seriously until it was almost too late.

[Shadow Fox]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Surfacers tend to be ignorant about darkspawn for the same reason dwarves are ignorant about surface life--there's not a lot of communication going on in either direction, coupled with a fair amount of resentment

Actually, the Dwarves often entertain guests and allow people into their halls. The Hall of Heroes was made so that people who venture to Orzammar from the surface can witness the main points of Dwarven society -- and to remind those that want to leave what they're abandoning.

As dragonflight said, there's actually a lot of contact going on between the Dwarves and the surface. That the surface hasn't ever once offered to help them -- unless you play a Dwarf in DAO -- is very telling, because they're ignoring a very real threat unless it's on their doorstep.

I've always wondered if the Dwarves would be okay with a casteless just leaving?*I've wondered why after seeing that Rica's allright the CD Warden can't just decide to make a beeline for the surface?ignoring that the game railroads you into being a Warden ofcourse*

[dragonflight288]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Surfacers tend to be ignorant about darkspawn for the same reason dwarves are ignorant about surface life--there's not a lot of communication going on in either direction, coupled with a fair amount of resentment

Actually, the Dwarves often entertain guests and allow people into their halls. The Hall of Heroes was made so that people who venture to Orzammar from the surface can witness the main points of Dwarven society -- and to remind those that want to leave what they're abandoning.

As dragonflight said, there's actually a lot of contact going on between the Dwarves and the surface. That the surface hasn't ever once offered to help them -- unless you play a Dwarf in DAO -- is very telling, because they're ignoring a very real threat unless it's on their doorstep.

I've always wondered if the Dwarves would be okay with a casteless just leaving?*I've wondered why after seeing that Rica's allright the CD Warden can't just decide to make a beeline for the surface?ignoring that the game railroads you into being a Warden ofcourse*

Most dwarves don't care one whit about casteless. if the casteless up and left Orzammar, most wouldn't even notice save for maybe the odd comment that the crime rate went down. But then they'd start complaining because all the Noble Hunters are gone.

[bleachorange]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Fiacre wrote...
*SNIP*

As I said - you can't risk it.

Too much trust required. And not just in Morrigan.

Because in order for Morrigan to be correct - everything she assumes has to be correct too.
All of her theoreis about souls, babies and darkspawn.
Her interpretation fo the Grimmorie and the magic rituals.
And you also have to start from a very questionable assumption that everything Flemeth told her was the truth.
And knowing Flemeth that is highly unlikely.

But see, that's the difference -- I think it's worth it and I don't think it's too much trust required. Of course, I also don't think Flemeth is one of the bad guys and mostly "kill" her because I've promised Morrigan and Flemeth, if asked to tell the truth, gives me no reason to believe she won't be threat to Morrigan even if she' not one to myself, Ferelden or Thedas as a whole. Quite the opposite, in fact.

Doesn't change the facts that are many assumptions and "what if's" that all have to fall in place.

See, I have little doubt Morrigan thinks what she sez is correct....but is it? She learned it from very untrustworthy sources.

not really. she learned this from a book in the possession of the first enchanter of the circle of magi in ferelden. admittedly, flemeth told her first, but the book had all of flemeth's  history in it.

now, i like the morrigan god baby storyline simply because it's so d*mn interesting. there's so much mystery around this part of the story that it pokes my curiousity and eggs it on incessantly. that doesn't mean I think everything will turn out 100% all right, but it does mean I want to see what happens if I take this course of action.

[Sable Rhapsody]

dragonflight288 wrote...
You can't tell me the Chantry didn't know that the dwarves were fighting darkspawn for four hundred years the darkspawn were supposedly extinct if they've been trading with them for the entire time period. And if they didn't know, then they were willfully ignorant.

I don't think they didn't know.  I think it's more likely they didn't think it was a big deal.  Everyone who isn't a dwarf or a Warden seems to think that in times with no Blight, the darkspawn are limited to a handful of weak raids.  That's an understatement of the situation, but just as dwarves don't usually bother with surfacer wars and politics, surfacers tend not to bother with Dwarven affairs, even if they involve darkspawn.

Hmm, here's a thought.  I wonder to what extent the Dwarven cities WILL become involved in DA3.  At the very least, the highly lucrative lyrium trade with the Chantry is going to be seriously disrupted.  It's hard to sell lyrium when the Circles are all in revolt and most of the templars have left.  Thoughts?

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Actually, the Dwarves often entertain guests and allow people into their halls. The Hall of Heroes was made so that people who venture to Orzammar from the surface can witness the main points of Dwarven society -- and to remind those that want to leave what they're abandoning.

As dragonflight said, there's actually a lot of contact going on between the Dwarves and the surface. That the surface hasn't ever once offered to help them -- unless you play a Dwarf in DAO -- is very telling, because they're ignoring a very real threat unless it's on their doorstep.

My mistake, then.  I never played a dwarf beyond the origin stories, and TBH Orzammar's pretty dull if you're not from there.  Apologies.

[Lotion Soronarr]

KainD wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

As I said - you can't risk it.

You can't, I would. And the fact that most poeple think like you irl is actually sad to me, but then again you will just call me a fool.

Can't say you are wrong on that note.

bleachorange wrote...
not really. she learned this from a book
in the possession of the first enchanter of the circle of magi in
ferelden. admittedly, flemeth told her first, but the book had all of
flemeth's  history in it.

now, i like the morrigan god baby
storyline simply because it's so d*mn interesting. there's so much
mystery around this part of the story that it pokes my curiousity and
eggs it on incessantly. that doesn't mean I think everything will turn
out 100% all right, but it does mean I want to see what happens if I
take this course of action.

No, Marrigan learned almsot everything from Flemeth.
And Flemeth is...cryptic and manipulative to say the least. It wouldn't surprise me in the least is the DR was Flemeths idea to begin with.

Personally, the OGB storyline doesn't interest me at all.

[Fiacre]

Out of universe, I... actually trust Flemeth. My Wardens don't, because she's potentially a threat to Morrigan and Morrigan is either their best friend or LI, but me, personally? I don't think Flemeth is planning the destruction of Thedas or anything like that. I could be wrong, of course, but at the moment, I think she's more likely to be one of the good guys / an anti hero, than an outright enemy. ...Though her methods are likely... questionable.

[dragonflight288]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
You can't tell me the Chantry didn't know that the dwarves were fighting darkspawn for four hundred years the darkspawn were supposedly extinct if they've been trading with them for the entire time period. And if they didn't know, then they were willfully ignorant.

I don't think they didn't know.  I think it's more likely they didn't think it was a big deal.  Everyone who isn't a dwarf or a Warden seems to think that in times with no Blight, the darkspawn are limited to a handful of weak raids.  That's an understatement of the situation, but just as dwarves don't usually bother with surfacer wars and politics, surfacers tend not to bother with Dwarven affairs, even if they involve darkspawn.

Hmm, here's a thought.  I wonder to what extent the Dwarven cities WILL become involved in DA3.  At the very least, the highly lucrative lyrium trade with the Chantry is going to be seriously disrupted.  It's hard to sell lyrium when the Circles are all in revolt and most of the templars have left.  Thoughts?

I think smuggling is going to skyrocket. And depending on how the mage/tempar war resolves itself, Orzammar may be trading with several different countries and not just the Chantry. That'll increase competition and create a demand for better deals. As for the dwarves regarding templars and mages....the only involvement I can see them realisitcally having (based on what I know) is that the surface dwarves and the merchant caste will be the ones involved. But if something happens that requires either the mages or the templars to go down to Orzammar to secure lyrium for themselves and to deny the other....then Orzammar will be getting VERY involved.

And should that happen, I bet we can see a return of darkspawn enemies, getting them a dime-a-dozen.

I think the dwarves in general getting involved is a toss up. The templars, being religious zealots as a whole, may feel it is their right to go to Orzammar and simply take the lyrium they need, or try to convert the dwarves, in whatever way possible, so they can get the lyrium. But then they'd be responsible for holding off the darkspawn. On the flip side, we can have mages come in to make trade agreements or use blood magic to try and take control of the lyrium trade themselves. And then they'll have to help with the darkspawn.

Either way, the dwarves stand to make a killing. Or neither side may go there and the dwarves will simply have to worry about smugglers.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Actually, the Dwarves often entertain guests and allow people into their halls. The Hall of Heroes was made so that people who venture to Orzammar from the surface can witness the main points of Dwarven society -- and to remind those that want to leave what they're abandoning.

As dragonflight said, there's actually a lot of contact going on between the Dwarves and the surface. That the surface hasn't ever once offered to help them -- unless you play a Dwarf in DAO -- is very telling, because they're ignoring a very real threat unless it's on their doorstep.

My mistake, then.  I never played a dwarf beyond the origin stories, and TBH Orzammar's pretty dull if you're not from there.  Apologies.

As part of the boon the ruler of Ferelden gives a dwarf, it's the promise of either military or economic aid (depending on whose king. Harrowmont won't accept military aid but will accept economic aid while Bhelen will take the military aid) to Orzammar. It's probably the very first time in Orzammar's history that a surface nation ever offers to help them fight the darkspawn.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Fiacre wrote...

Out of universe, I... actually trust Flemeth. My Wardens don't, because she's potentially a threat to Morrigan and Morrigan is either their best friend or LI, but me, personally? I don't think Flemeth is planning the destruction of Thedas or anything like that. I could be wrong, of course, but at the moment, I think she's more likely to be one of the good guys / an anti hero, than an outright enemy. ...Though her methods are likely... questionable.

Agreed.  I don't think Flemeth is plotting the destruction of Thedas--if she'd wanted that, she could've just left the Warden and Alistair to die in DA:O.  No Wardens, Ferelden in civil war...it wouldn't have ended the world, but it sure would've made a gigantic mess of things.  

Her dialogue reminds me of a better done Kreia from KOTOR 2.  She doesn't care for violence or conflict for its own sake--instead, she talks a lot about change and transformation, how we must not fear it in order to survive.

dragonflight288 wrote...
I think the dwarves in general getting involved is a toss up. The templars, being religious zealots as a whole, may feel it is their right to go to Orzammar and simply take the lyrium they need, or try to convert the dwarves, in whatever way possible, so they can get the lyrium. But then they'd be responsible for holding off the darkspawn. On the flip side, we can have mages come in to make trade agreements or use blood magic to try and take control of the lyrium trade themselves. And then they'll have to help with the darkspawn. 

 
I don't think the mages would stand a good chance of trying to seize that lyrium.  Dwarves have that natural resistance to magic.  And they might not be used to Circle mages, but they've probably fought lots of emissaries.  I imagine the principles are the same.  Blood magic is a different story--does dwarven magical resistance apply to that?  And there is the very real possibility of mages simply turning to blood magic if their lyrium supply dries up.

As for the templars, I'd hope they know better than to just storm a city like Orzammar <_<  Unlike the mages, they don't need lyrium to fight.  They just need it to feed their addiction.  Templars weaned off lyrium vs. blood mages, now that's a bone-chilling thought.

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 06 octobre 2012 - 09:28 .