2177 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

Fiacre wrote...

Out of universe, I... actually trust Flemeth. My Wardens don't, because she's potentially a threat to Morrigan and Morrigan is either their best friend or LI, but me, personally? I don't think Flemeth is planning the destruction of Thedas or anything like that. I could be wrong, of course, but at the moment, I think she's more likely to be one of the good guys / an anti hero, than an outright enemy. ...Though her methods are likely... questionable.

Who said she plans to destroy TheDas?

But, she has her own motives and plans. And it seem to me that everoyne is expendable.

I have no idea what her plan is for Morrigan or the OGB, but I doubt it's in anyones best interest except for hers.

[Fiacre]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Fiacre wrote...

Out of universe, I... actually trust Flemeth. My Wardens don't, because she's potentially a threat to Morrigan and Morrigan is either their best friend or LI, but me, personally? I don't think Flemeth is planning the destruction of Thedas or anything like that. I could be wrong, of course, but at the moment, I think she's more likely to be one of the good guys / an anti hero, than an outright enemy. ...Though her methods are likely... questionable.

Who said she plans to destroy TheDas?

But, she has her own motives and plans. And it seem to me that everoyne is expendable.

I have no idea what her plan is for Morrigan or the OGB, but I doubt it's in anyones best interest except for hers.

I've seen quite a bit of speculation that she's evil and plans to destroy this and that. Wasn't about yanything you said.

And I dunno, she gives me more of a bitter anti hero vibe than anything, so I think whatever she is planning might actually be good for Thedas and not just her personally, even if she goes about it in a "the ends justify the means" way.

[Cultist]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
The problem - how can you tell?

Once you know the basics of blood magic, you can go from there and perfect/experiment to learn more.
How do you control that?
How do you know a blood mage doesn't  already know how to influence someone or has no plans to learn it?

You don't. You can't know. And you can't risk it either.
So you ban it completely.

 Templar order watch over mages. They go from there and extend their restrictions and control over mages' lives.
How could they control that?
How do you know a templar doesn't aim to control every aspect of mages' lives and persecute them even further?

We triedt. We already know. The result is massive uprising.

So we must disband templars.

It's really fascinating to look from a different perspective.

Too much trust required. And not just in Morrigan.

Because in order for Morrigan to be correct - everything she assumes has to be correct too.
All of her theoreis about souls, babies and darkspawn.
Her interpretation fo the Grimmorie and the magic rituals.
And you also have to start from a very questionable assumption that everything Flemeth told her was the truth.
And knowing Flemeth that is highly unlikely.

Her theory worked.

[Whatislove?]

I don't think this will happen knowing Bioware having this power is optional and doesn't have much to do with the storyline. However, it would be nice to see a little side quest that involves the price for blood magic.

Something having to do with the main protagonist's control over her or his power, in a random encounter everything is going well and then a accidental friendly fire towards one of the companions in the party (someone you've romanced or someone important, any of the companions). After the fight a cut scene where the companion that received the severe blow is still out cold and the other companions ask what just happened? You regret using blood magic a bit now. The injured companion taken to a healer and healed (got him or her to a healer in time).

Only way to prevent this from ever happening again is with an ancient spell that confines the beast within, found only in the fade. Why the fade? That's the source where the demon's powers come from for blood magic, I think. If Feynriel survived the encounter in kirkwall and mastered his powers he can help you tame the demon that was used for blood magic. He is a "dreamer" after all, he can guide the protagonist through the fade. You have a few choices, I can only think of two choices right now. First choice, defeating the demon means you lose the ability of blood magic you'll never get this power back but are completely free from the demons grasp. Second choice means conquering and taming the beast within having total control over your powers of blood magic and a nice side bonus for this power after completion.

It would be pretty cool but it's unlikely that it will happen. This is my opinion of course, just throwing out some suggestions and ideas. I'm really looking forward to DA3 I can wait bioware, i'm not in a rush for 3 so make it great like origins. I am not looking forward to the online multi-player I really hope you guys are joking. PS. DA2 was okay I did enjoy it but overall origins was the better game, combine the two and it will be amazing.

Modifié par Mr-_-Zero, 06 octobre 2012 - 11:31 .

[Wolf]

I totally support this thread. Dying (heh heh) to roleplay a blood mage but I want it to have an actual meaning. To have consequences.

[Fiacre]

Mr-_-Zero wrote...

Only way to prevent this from ever happening again is with an ancient spell that confines the beast within, found only in the fade. Why the fade? That's the source where the demon's powers come from for blood magic, I think. If Feynriel survived the encounter in kirkwall and mastered his powers he can help you tame the demon that was used for blood magic. He is a "dreamer" after all, he can guide the protagonist through the fade. You have a few choices, I can only think of two choices right now. First choice, defeating the demon means you lose the ability of blood magic you'll never get this power back but are completely free from the demons grasp. Second choice means conquering and taming the beast within having total control over your powers of blood magic and a nice side bonus for this power after completion.

That does sound interesting, but what if the character didn't use a demon to learn blood magic, but learned it from another blood mage or from books? Or what, if it's like DA:O, the demon already got their end of the bargain or was already "tamed" (the intimidate option)? For this to work, they'd have to severly restrict the ways in which you can get blood magic/roleplay how you got it (in DA:O you can give the Warden BM without them ever facing the Desire Demon, after all).

[ledod]

Specializations, including the Blood magic school, should result in consequences for the player. I will admit, however, that any meaningful response to our special class choices may be too burdensome for the dev's resources.

Pertaining to blood mages, a superficial "ewwww" response from other characers would be appreciated at the most basic level

[TEWR]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

I've always wondered if the Dwarves would be okay with a casteless just leaving?*I've wondered why after seeing that Rica's allright the CD Warden can't just decide to make a beeline for the surface?ignoring that the game railroads you into being a Warden ofcourse*

Well... they don't really care about the Casteless, but they don't want them leaving for the surface either.

They don't want to offer them equality or even means to attain it short of becoming a Paragon, but rely on them to earn redemption in the Legion of the Dead -- their main line of defense against the Darkspawn.

In short, they won't stop them from leaving, but they're also not making it easy for them to leave. Most Casteless Dwarves probably wouldn't know what to do on the surface.

One of the reasons why the Carta was detested by the Dwarves was because it was offering casteless Dwarves a social structure outside of the norm -- with a decent lifestyle in their view -- that impeded with the casteless joining the Legion.

[Warrior Craess]

Never understood why people think Blood magic is somehow stronger than any other college of magic. Meta gaming wise, it's simply the use of a persons live force, rather than Mana, Chi, Karma, Spirit or what ever.  

Game wise how is possessing someone, temporarily, any worse or different than inducing waking nightmares? Or confusing them so that they attack their allies?  How is it worse then immobilizing them and killing them with another spell? How is it any worse than draining mana/health from dead bodies. none of which is done via the blood magic college of spells. 

Entropy is one nasty college much stronger than the simple speciallization of blood magic. 

How is blood magic any more visually frightening, than turning into a bear, spider, a freaking swarm of insects, or worse yet a blight version the spider/bear?. Or if taken to the extreme, how is using blood magic any more scary than turning into a freaking dragon? 

How is it any worse, or more powerful, than the keeper set of spells? Or than beaing able to strap on armor, and still cast spells? 

My arcane warrior/spirit healer was devastating. My arcane warrior/battle mage/keeper even more so.  My Blood mage was certainly tough, but not any more tough than the others. 

[TEWR]

Warrior Craess wrote...

Never understood why people think Blood magic is somehow stronger than any other college of magic.

Because it actually amplifies the magic, much like an abundance of lyrium would do -- as having buckets of lyrium eliminates the need for a Mage to use his willpower to power a spell.

And the lore states that Templars can't negate its powers like they can to normal magic.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 07 octobre 2012 - 03:58 .

[DPSSOC]

Warrior Craess wrote...

Never understood why people think Blood magic is somehow stronger than any other college of magic.

 
Because it's stated that Blood magic is stronger.  Example Jowan can do alone with one person's blood a ritual that requires multiple mages and a lot of lyrium.  It's not just an alternate power source there's an amplification aspect.  Gameplay and mechanics wise it's not really any different but according to the lore it should be.  I dunno how they could implement that though.  Maybe have spells cast with blood rather than mana do 2-3X damage or have the same increase in duration, but have them cost a lot more blood and give the mage less to work with for balance.

[Vandicus]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Warrior Craess wrote...

Never understood why people think Blood magic is somehow stronger than any other college of magic.

Because it actually amplifies the magic, much like an abundance of lyrium would do -- as having buckets of lyrium eliminates the need for a Mage to use his willpower to power a spell.

And the lore states that Templars can't negate its powers like they can to normal magic.

Plus it allows some things that Lyrium can't do. Perhaps most fearsome of which is mind control.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Cultist wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
The problem - how can you tell?

Once you know the basics of blood magic, you can go from there and perfect/experiment to learn more.
How do you control that?
How do you know a blood mage doesn't  already know how to influence someone or has no plans to learn it?

You don't. You can't know. And you can't risk it either.
So you ban it completely.

 Templar order watch over mages. They go from there and extend their restrictions and control over mages' lives.
How could they control that?
How do you know a templar doesn't aim to control every aspect of mages' lives and persecute them even further?

We triedt. We already know. The result is massive uprising.
So we must disband templars.

It's really fascinating to look from a different perspective.

Your counter-examples are idiots as they are pointless.

I can't believe you're seriously comparing templars with mind-controling blood magic.

Blood mages need to die.
All of them.
Anything else is utter irresonsibiltiy towards TheDas.

Her theory worked.

At first glace at least.
What if it turns out that the OGB is a vessel for Flemeth? Or a new, more powerfull archdemon?

[ledod]

Out of curiosity, is the OGB canon?

[blaidfiste]

ledod wrote...

Out of curiosity, is the OGB canon?

I hope not.  Imagine the complaints from those that didn't do the ritual.

[Auintus]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Blood mages need to die.
All of them.
Anything else is utter irresonsibiltiy towards TheDas.

Any mage can become a blood mage if pushed. Should you just kill all mages? Drown them as infants? Condemn, even someone who is a practicing blood mage, on the basis of what they might do?

[Auintus]

blaidfiste wrote...

ledod wrote...

Out of curiosity, is the OGB canon?

I hope not.  Imagine the complaints from those that didn't do the ritual.

No, it isn't. That's why Bioware can't do a game revolving around him. He will show up later, but won't be the pivotal plot point.

[dragonflight288]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Cultist wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
The problem - how can you tell?

Once you know the basics of blood magic, you can go from there and perfect/experiment to learn more.
How do you control that?
How do you know a blood mage doesn't  already know how to influence someone or has no plans to learn it?

You don't. You can't know. And you can't risk it either.
So you ban it completely.

 Templar order watch over mages. They go from there and extend their restrictions and control over mages' lives.
How could they control that?
How do you know a templar doesn't aim to control every aspect of mages' lives and persecute them even further?

We triedt. We already know. The result is massive uprising.
So we must disband templars.

It's really fascinating to look from a different perspective.

Your counter-examples are idiots as they are pointless.

I can't believe you're seriously comparing templars with mind-controling blood magic.

Blood mages need to die.
All of them.
Anything else is utter irresonsibiltiy towards TheDas.

Her theory worked.

At first glace at least.
What if it turns out that the OGB is a vessel for Flemeth? Or a new, more powerfull archdemon?

Let's use another example then.

Every templar is given power over mages and are told from the cradle that they have divine authority over mages. Many templars feel that this divine authority allows them to do whatever they please to the mages, in any way possible. Some templars abuse their power so much that they may illegally tranquilize and rape mages, and feel perfectly justified.

The danger of the templars is such that EVERY templar is in danger of becoming a rapist or a murderer in the name of the divine. So the only safe thing to do is to ban the templar order or to simply castrate every templar.



Not my actual opinion, it's actually far from it, but it uses the exact same logic as saying "every mage may feel the power and may abuse it, so let's ban the power entirely." While we're at it, let's destroy any hope of creating more grey wardens so we can doom the world to blights. Or let's completely destroy the phylacteries, so the templars can't track rogue mages because those phylacteries are a form of blood magic as well.

[Vandicus]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Cultist wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
The problem - how can you tell?

Once you know the basics of blood magic, you can go from there and perfect/experiment to learn more.
How do you control that?
How do you know a blood mage doesn't  already know how to influence someone or has no plans to learn it?

You don't. You can't know. And you can't risk it either.
So you ban it completely.

 Templar order watch over mages. They go from there and extend their restrictions and control over mages' lives.
How could they control that?
How do you know a templar doesn't aim to control every aspect of mages' lives and persecute them even further?

We triedt. We already know. The result is massive uprising.
So we must disband templars.

It's really fascinating to look from a different perspective.

Your counter-examples are idiots as they are pointless.

I can't believe you're seriously comparing templars with mind-controling blood magic.

Blood mages need to die.
All of them.
Anything else is utter irresonsibiltiy towards TheDas.

Her theory worked.

At first glace at least.
What if it turns out that the OGB is a vessel for Flemeth? Or a new, more powerfull archdemon?

Let's use another example then.

Every templar is given power over mages and are told from the cradle that they have divine authority over mages. Many templars feel that this divine authority allows them to do whatever they please to the mages, in any way possible. Some templars abuse their power so much that they may illegally tranquilize and rape mages, and feel perfectly justified.

The danger of the templars is such that EVERY templar is in danger of becoming a rapist or a murderer in the name of the divine. So the only safe thing to do is to ban the templar order or to simply castrate every templar.



Not my actual opinion, it's actually far from it, but it uses the exact same logic as saying "every mage may feel the power and may abuse it, so let's ban the power entirely." While we're at it, let's destroy any hope of creating more grey wardens so we can doom the world to blights. Or let's completely destroy the phylacteries, so the templars can't track rogue mages because those phylacteries are a form of blood magic as well.

The chance of a templar becoming a rapist/murderer is relatively low, plus the damage that one can do is relatively small compared to a mage.

Now lets take a look at mages. Lets say 1 in 100 turns to blood magic(the ratio is probably actually a lot higher), and the average kills that a blood mage commits is 300(some blood mages kill an extraordinarily high amount, some very little, but the average is probably fairly high). Statistically speaking, killing every mage, let alone every blood mage, saves lives on balance.


Its also unnecessary for a practitioning blood mage to perform the Grey Warden ritual. It only technically qualifies as blood magic because blood is a component, but not a power source. Likewise phylacteries do not use blood as power source.

[Fiacre]

Vandicus wrote...

The chance of a templar becoming a rapist/murderer is relatively low, plus the damage that one can do is relatively small compared to a mage.

Now lets take a look at mages. Lets say 1 in 100 turns to blood magic(the ratio is probably actually a lot higher), and the average kills that a blood mage commits is 300(some blood mages kill an extraordinarily high amount, some very little, but the average is probably fairly high). Statistically speaking, killing every mage, let alone every blood mage, saves lives on balance.

Is it? I'm usually on the idealitsic side of things, it seems, but I don't think it's that unlikely at all. People can and will do terrible things to each other for little reason. Especially if they have someone at their mercy the way Templars have mages at their mercy.

And I'd say that outside the Tevinter Imperium, the death toll caused by blood magic is actually relatively low. I might even go so far as to say that, in general, driving a car is more dangerous than blood magic, considering how common lethal car accidents are. Mages aren't as common, blood mages even less so. Blood mages that can really mind control people are probably even rarer, and even then their power isn't absolute, as Avernus and the failed rebellion show us.

[LobselVith8]

Vandicus wrote...

The chance of a templar becoming a rapist/murderer is relatively low, plus the damage that one can do is relatively small compared to a mage.

You mean, like ordering the execution of hundreds of men, women, and children simply because they happen to be mages? Which is precisely what the highest ranking templar in Kirkwall was able to do because templars have "dominion over mages by divine right."

Vandicus wrote...

Now lets take a look at mages. Lets say 1 in 100 turns to blood magic(the ratio is probably actually a lot higher), and the average kills that a blood mage commits is 300(some blood mages kill an extraordinarily high amount, some very little, but the average is probably fairly high). Statistically speaking, killing every mage, let alone every blood mage, saves lives on balance.

Killing mages for being mages. In other words, genocide?

Vandicus wrote...

Its also unnecessary for a practitioning blood mage to perform the Grey Warden ritual. It only technically qualifies as blood magic because blood is a component, but not a power source. Likewise phylacteries do not use blood as power source.

Both the Joining and the phylacteries are blood magic. We also know that some Grey Warden mages use blood magic against the darkspawn.

[Vandicus]

Fiacre wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

The chance of a templar becoming a rapist/murderer is relatively low, plus the damage that one can do is relatively small compared to a mage.

Now lets take a look at mages. Lets say 1 in 100 turns to blood magic(the ratio is probably actually a lot higher), and the average kills that a blood mage commits is 300(some blood mages kill an extraordinarily high amount, some very little, but the average is probably fairly high). Statistically speaking, killing every mage, let alone every blood mage, saves lives on balance.

Is it? I'm usually on the idealitsic side of things, it seems, but I don't think it's that unlikely at all. People can and will do terrible things to each other for little reason. Especially if they have someone at their mercy the way Templars have mages at their mercy.

And I'd say that outside the Tevinter Imperium, the death toll caused by blood magic is actually relatively low. I might even go so far as to say that, in general, driving a car is more dangerous than blood magic, considering how common lethal car accidents are. Mages aren't as common, blood mages even less so. Blood mages that can really mind control people are probably even rarer, and even then their power isn't absolute, as Avernus and the failed rebellion show us.

Templars don't have mages at their mercy any more than police in the US have random citizens at their mercy. They have laws, rules, and overseers governing their behavior. 

Circle in Fereldan incident, caused by one blood mage. Without the Warden I believe the situation would've gotten much worse. I think there's only been one lore established blood mage with an intentional body count of 0(blood mages who attempt murderers don't really qualify for a 0 body count role call).

My random numbers in my earlier posts are random numbers, but they're the backing of an explanation for why blood magic is dangerous.

Does the average person driving a car have a body count of 1 or higher? No.

Does the average person using blood magic have a body count of 1 or higher? Almost undoubtedly. Killing blood mages in a vaccuum would mean more people live than die. We don't really have a way to evaluate how many lives may have been saved by the Tevinter Imperium fighting the Qunari though.

[LobselVith8]

Vandicus wrote...

Templars don't have mages at their mercy any more than police in the US have random citizens at their mercy. They have laws, rules, and overseers governing their behavior.

Considering the Chantry controlled Circles are argued by some characters to be slavery, and dev Michael Hamilton said it's a dictatorship, I don't see how you can argue this, especially when we see what happened to Karl (and nearly Ella) because mages live at the mercy of the templars. In fact, Irving argued it was a matter of survival during the Magi Origin.

Vandicus wrote...

Circle in Fereldan incident, caused by one blood mage. Without the Warden I believe the situation would've gotten much worse. I think there's only been one lore established blood mage with an intentional body count of 0(blood mages who attempt murderers don't really qualify for a 0 body count role call).

That situation transpired precisely because the mages sought independence from an oppressive system.

Vandicus wrote...

My random numbers in my earlier posts are random numbers, but they're the backing of an explanation for why blood magic is dangerous.

Swords are dangerous. Bows are dangerous. Weapons tend to be dangerous, but it all depends on the person wielding the weapon.

Vandicus wrote...

Does the average person driving a car have a body count of 1 or higher? No.

Does the average person using blood magic have a body count of 1 or higher? Almost undoubtedly. Killing blood mages in a vaccuum would mean more people live than die. We don't really have a way to evaluate how many lives may have been saved by the Tevinter Imperium fighting the Qunari though.

Not all blood mages are like the Magisters of Tevinter, as we see with the case of Merrill and the Wardens.

[Vandicus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

The chance of a templar becoming a rapist/murderer is relatively low, plus the damage that one can do is relatively small compared to a mage.

You mean, like ordering the execution of hundreds of men, women, and children simply because they happen to be mages? Which is precisely what the highest ranking templar in Kirkwall was able to do because templars have "dominion over mages by divine right."

Vandicus wrote...

Now lets take a look at mages. Lets say 1 in 100 turns to blood magic(the ratio is probably actually a lot higher), and the average kills that a blood mage commits is 300(some blood mages kill an extraordinarily high amount, some very little, but the average is probably fairly high). Statistically speaking, killing every mage, let alone every blood mage, saves lives on balance.

Killing mages for being mages. In other words, genocide?

Vandicus wrote...

Its also unnecessary for a practitioning blood mage to perform the Grey Warden ritual. It only technically qualifies as blood magic because blood is a component, but not a power source. Likewise phylacteries do not use blood as power source.

Both the Joining and the phylacteries are blood magic. We also know that some Grey Warden mages use blood magic against the darkspawn.

Any insane person in power is dangerous. The chance of a templar becoming a murder/rapist is still low. The odds of recieving a magic insanity inducing macguffin is even lower still.

Killing darkspawn for being darkspawn. In other words, genocide? You could've tried to address the point rather than making a purely emotional attack.


Neither the Joining nor the phylacteries require use of demon-knowledge based blood magic, nor do they use blood magic as a power source. Second-hand knowledge of blood magic is substantially less dangerous in the first place.

[LobselVith8]

Vandicus wrote...

Any insane person in power is dangerous. The chance of a templar becoming a murder/rapist is still low. The odds of recieving a magic insanity inducing macguffin is even lower still.

The chances didn't seem so low in Kirkwall.

Vandicus wrote...

Killing darkspawn for being darkspawn. In other words, genocide? You could've tried to address the point rather than making a purely emotional attack.

Darkspawn literally taint and corrupt the world with their presence and destroy it; the darkspawn also eat people, violate women, and cause Blights that threaten all life on Thedas... it's a very different situation than murdering countless men, women, and children simply for being mages.

Vandicus wrote...

Neither the Joining nor the phylacteries require use of demon-knowledge based blood magic, nor do they use blood magic as a power source. Second-hand knowledge of blood magic is substantially less dangerous in the first place.

Mages can learn blood magic without a demon, and we don't know where the art originated from.