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Blood Magic. Great power should come with great price


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#451
Vandicus

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LobselVith8 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Any insane person in power is dangerous. The chance of a templar becoming a murder/rapist is still low. The odds of recieving a magic insanity inducing macguffin is even lower still.


The chances didn't seem so low in Kirkwall.

Vandicus wrote...

Killing darkspawn for being darkspawn. In other words, genocide? You could've tried to address the point rather than making a purely emotional attack.


Darkspawn literally taint and corrupt the world with their presence and destroy it; the darkspawn also eat people, violate women, and cause Blights that threaten all life on Thedas... it's a very different situation than murdering countless men, women, and children simply for being mages.

Vandicus wrote...

Neither the Joining nor the phylacteries require use of demon-knowledge based blood magic, nor do they use blood magic as a power source. Second-hand knowledge of blood magic is substantially less dangerous in the first place.


Mages can learn blood magic without a demon, and we don't know where the art originated from.


If we use Kirkwall as an example we'd also believe all mages are blood mages/murderers.

You make my point for me with the darkspawn. We don't kill them just for being darkspawn, we kill them to save lives. Killing mages to save lives is a valid point of view.


Not sure why you restate what I just said in regards to second-hand blood magic being less dangerous.

#452
LobselVith8

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Vandicus wrote...

If we use Kirkwall as an example we'd also believe all mages are blood mages/murderers.


I think you mean stupid and insane.

Vandicus wrote...

You make my point for me with the darkspawn. We don't kill them just for being darkspawn, we kill them to save lives. Killing mages to save lives is a valid point of view.


Your point is to commit genocide against people for being mages; my point was that dwarves and Wardens kill darkspawn because they are actively trying to corrupt and destroy all of known civilization.

Vandicus wrote...

Not sure why you restate what I just said in regards to second-hand blood magic being less dangerous.


Probably because I'm not certain why you vilify blood magic and blood mages.

#453
Fiacre

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Vandicus wrote...

Templars don't have mages at their mercy any more than police in the US have random citizens at their mercy. They have laws, rules, and overseers governing their behavior. 

Circle in Fereldan incident, caused by one blood mage. Without the Warden I believe the situation would've gotten much worse. I think there's only been one lore established blood mage with an intentional body count of 0(blood mages who attempt murderers don't really qualify for a 0 body count role call).

My random numbers in my earlier posts are random numbers, but they're the backing of an explanation for why blood magic is dangerous.

Does the average person driving a car have a body count of 1 or higher? No.

Does the average person using blood magic have a body count of 1 or higher? Almost undoubtedly. Killing blood mages in a vaccuum would mean more people live than die. We don't really have a way to evaluate how many lives may have been saved by the Tevinter Imperium fighting the Qunari though.


I agree with Lobsel as far as the Templars absolute power goes -- also, IIRC, Anders says he was lucky that he wasn't raped at some point, and he lived in the Fereldan Circle. You can't really compare the Templars to the police; Templars can turn mages tranquil and DA2 shows us that this can happen illegally without any repercussions for the culprit (and long before Meredith got the idol and was driven completely bonkers by it, too). We also know that Alrik wasn't the only rapist -- Karras raped Alain and I wouldn'tr be surprised if there were quite a few more rapists among the Kirkwall Templars (...like Alrik's and Karras' cronies).

And my point wasn't so much the average body count of a car driver, but the likelyhood of dying because of a car accident vs being killed by a blood mage. I don't think the average guy living in Thedas has to worry about being killed by an insane blood mage.

#454
Vandicus

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LobselVith8 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

If we use Kirkwall as an example we'd also believe all mages are blood mages/murderers.


I think you mean stupid and insane.

Vandicus wrote...

You make my point for me with the darkspawn. We don't kill them just for being darkspawn, we kill them to save lives. Killing mages to save lives is a valid point of view.


Your point is to commit genocide against people for being mages; my point was that dwarves and Wardens kill darkspawn because they are actively trying to corrupt and destroy all of known civilization.

Vandicus wrote...

Not sure why you restate what I just said in regards to second-hand blood magic being less dangerous.


Probably because I'm not certain why you vilify blood magic and blood mages.



I did not support commiting genocide against mages. I support a system of management similar to the Circle. Your strawman against those who would kill blood mages as a meaningless genocide(killing for the sake of killing a particular group) is nevertheless a strawman.

#455
LobselVith8

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Vandicus wrote...

I did not support commiting genocide against mages. I support a system of management similar to the Circle. Your strawman against those who would kill blood mages as a meaningless genocide(killing for the sake of killing a particular group) is nevertheless a strawman.


Blood mages aren't all the same; it's like putting Merrill, the Grey Warden mages, and the apostates who use blood magic to survive against templars who can nullify their abilities otherwise in the same group as the Tevinter Magisters who enslave mages and non-mages alike.

#456
Vandicus

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LobselVith8 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

I did not support commiting genocide against mages. I support a system of management similar to the Circle. Your strawman against those who would kill blood mages as a meaningless genocide(killing for the sake of killing a particular group) is nevertheless a strawman.


Blood mages aren't all the same; it's like putting Merrill, the Grey Warden mages, and the apostates who use blood magic to survive against templars who can nullify their abilities otherwise in the same group as the Tevinter Magisters who enslave mages and non-mages alike.


I'll try to spell this out more clearly. I'm not saying all blood mages are evil. I even identified that the lore has an example of a blood mage who has a body count of zero and uses his powers to heal and protect people.

Thing here is, out've the total blood mages out there, how many are actually good?

For example, say we've got a room of 80 people, 60 of whom are unreformed serial killers. but we don't know who is who. Now we've got the opportunity to kill everyone there, or we can let them all go? What is the moral choice? You might go with letting them all go on the basis of not wanting to get your hands dirty, but there's also a very valid argument for killing the entire group. To pretend the argument and moral ambiguity isn't there, well reflects a PoV that's pure idealism. Never kill an innocent to save more lives doesn't always work out well.

I suppose you are morally opposed to the bombing of Hiroshim and Nagasaki during WWII? The analysis for the amount of American soldiers who would've died in a conventional assault is well over the number of people who died in both those places(and that was a fairly high death toll in itself), not to mention the Japanese soldiers and civilians who would've died in a conventional assault. Similar situation. Here civilians were directly killed to prevent greater loss of life.

#457
LobselVith8

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Vandicus wrote...

I'll try to spell this out more clearly. I'm not saying all blood mages are evil. I even identified that the lore has an example of a blood mage who has a body count of zero and uses his powers to heal and protect people.

Thing here is, out've the total blood mages out there, how many are actually good?


It's impossible to know, because apostates don't typically announce their presence in a society where mages are hated and feared because of religious dogma.

Vandicus wrote...

For example, say we've got a room of 80 people, 60 of whom are unreformed serial killers. but we don't know who is who. Now we've got the opportunity to kill everyone there, or we can let them all go? What is the moral choice? You might go with letting them all go on the basis of not wanting to get your hands dirty, but there's also a very valid argument for killing the entire group. To pretend the argument and moral ambiguity isn't there, well reflects a PoV that's pure idealism. Never kill an innocent to save more lives doesn't always work out well.


Why not simply kill the people who are specifically bad, rather than killing indiscriminately?

Vandicus wrote...

I suppose you are morally opposed to the bombing of Hiroshim and Nagasaki during WWII? The analysis for the amount of American soldiers who would've died in a conventional assault is well over the number of people who died in both those places(and that was a fairly high death toll in itself), not to mention the Japanese soldiers and civilians who would've died in a conventional assault. Similar situation. Here civilians were directly killed to prevent greater loss of life.


I'm opposed to the idea of killing blood mages simply for being blood mages.

#458
Vandicus

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LobselVith8 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

I'll try to spell this out more clearly. I'm not saying all blood mages are evil. I even identified that the lore has an example of a blood mage who has a body count of zero and uses his powers to heal and protect people.

Thing here is, out've the total blood mages out there, how many are actually good?


It's impossible to know, because apostates don't typically announce their presence in a society where mages are hated and feared because of religious dogma.

Vandicus wrote...

For example, say we've got a room of 80 people, 60 of whom are unreformed serial killers. but we don't know who is who. Now we've got the opportunity to kill everyone there, or we can let them all go? What is the moral choice? You might go with letting them all go on the basis of not wanting to get your hands dirty, but there's also a very valid argument for killing the entire group. To pretend the argument and moral ambiguity isn't there, well reflects a PoV that's pure idealism. Never kill an innocent to save more lives doesn't always work out well.


Why not simply kill the people who are specifically bad, rather than killing indiscriminately?

Vandicus wrote...

I suppose you are morally opposed to the bombing of Hiroshim and Nagasaki during WWII? The analysis for the amount of American soldiers who would've died in a conventional assault is well over the number of people who died in both those places(and that was a fairly high death toll in itself), not to mention the Japanese soldiers and civilians who would've died in a conventional assault. Similar situation. Here civilians were directly killed to prevent greater loss of life.


I'm opposed to the idea of killing blood mages simply for being blood mages.


The situation is specifically set up in a situation where its not feasible to differentiate them. Much like its often difficult to tell the difference between a blood mage and a regular mage, or a mage who has killed people/intends to kill people as opposed to an innocent mage

As I understand it you're opposed to restricting a mage's freedom with the Circles, so how do you propose that they be properly monitored? Moreover, without the Litany, a blood mage is capable of mind controlling even templars, any sufficiently powerful blood mage could easily escape from most security restrictions(Corypheus for examle), and higher levels of security restrictions are not always feasible, especially when they're merely being detained to be investigated.


Any case where a murderous blood mage is on the loose, shooting first and asking questions later is the most practical solution. Send a group of templars to go simply talk to the mage gives away the advantage of surprise. Surprise is the number way to kill a blood mage. Once the blood mage is aware of their presence, its a simple fireball and they're free, with a number of templars added to the death toll. Hunting(though this is a loaded word since many apostates are not killed when discovered) apostates is a risky business in the first place, let alone trying to talk with a blood mage. A templar or group of templars who attempt to peacefull negotiate/speak with a blood mage are putting themselves at the mercy of said blood mage. How would you suggest blood mages be investigated without putting the investigators at the mercy of the suspects?

#459
LobselVith8

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Vandicus wrote...

The situation is specifically set up in a situation where its not feasible to differentiate them. Much like its often difficult to tell the difference between a blood mage and a regular mage, or a mage who has killed people/intends to kill people as opposed to an innocent mage


Or a person who is killed by the templars because people think he is a mage, which has happened before.

Vandicus wrote...

As I understand it you're opposed to restricting a mage's freedom with the Circles, so how do you propose that they be properly monitored? Moreover, without the Litany, a blood mage is capable of mind controlling even templars, any sufficiently powerful blood mage could easily escape from most security restrictions(Corypheus for examle), and higher levels of security restrictions are not always feasible, especially when they're merely being detained to be investigated.


I'm opposed to putting mages under the authority of an anti-mage religious organization. I'm not opposed to law and order. I've supported my decision to remove the Circles of Magi from Chantry control in-game as well; my Surana Warden asked for the Magi boon - for the Circle to be given its autonomy, and the ruler of Ferelden publicly agreed that mages had earned the right to govern themselves.

Vandicus wrote...

Any case where a murderous blood mage is on the loose, shooting first and asking questions later is the most practical solution. Send a group of templars to go simply talk to the mage gives away the advantage of surprise. Surprise is the number way to kill a blood mage. Once the blood mage is aware of their presence, its a simple fireball and they're free, with a number of templars added to the death toll. Hunting(though this is a loaded word since many apostates are not killed when discovered) apostates is a risky business in the first place, let alone trying to talk with a blood mage. A templar or group of templars who attempt to peacefull negotiate/speak with a blood mage are putting themselves at the mercy of said blood mage. How would you suggest blood mages be investigated without putting the investigators at the mercy of the suspects?


A police force of skilled people with templar-like abilities, and mages, including blood mages.

#460
Vandicus

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LobselVith8 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

The situation is specifically set up in a situation where its not feasible to differentiate them. Much like its often difficult to tell the difference between a blood mage and a regular mage, or a mage who has killed people/intends to kill people as opposed to an innocent mage


Or a person who is killed by the templars because people think he is a mage, which has happened before.

Vandicus wrote...

As I understand it you're opposed to restricting a mage's freedom with the Circles, so how do you propose that they be properly monitored? Moreover, without the Litany, a blood mage is capable of mind controlling even templars, any sufficiently powerful blood mage could easily escape from most security restrictions(Corypheus for examle), and higher levels of security restrictions are not always feasible, especially when they're merely being detained to be investigated.


I'm opposed to putting mages under the authority of an anti-mage religious organization. I'm not opposed to law and order. I've supported my decision to remove the Circles of Magi from Chantry control in-game as well; my Surana Warden asked for the Magi boon - for the Circle to be given its autonomy, and the ruler of Ferelden publicly agreed that mages had earned the right to govern themselves.

Vandicus wrote...

Any case where a murderous blood mage is on the loose, shooting first and asking questions later is the most practical solution. Send a group of templars to go simply talk to the mage gives away the advantage of surprise. Surprise is the number way to kill a blood mage. Once the blood mage is aware of their presence, its a simple fireball and they're free, with a number of templars added to the death toll. Hunting(though this is a loaded word since many apostates are not killed when discovered) apostates is a risky business in the first place, let alone trying to talk with a blood mage. A templar or group of templars who attempt to peacefull negotiate/speak with a blood mage are putting themselves at the mercy of said blood mage. How would you suggest blood mages be investigated without putting the investigators at the mercy of the suspects?


A police force of skilled people with templar-like abilities, and mages, including blood mages.


Yes, innocent people die while templars try to stop the evil mages(specifically the evil ones). Innocent people die in real life over misunderstandings.

Your suggestions do not provide an answer for how to avoid the necessity of shoot first and ask questions later when dealing with blood mages, unless you believe the task force would necessarily need to be willing to put themselves at the mercy of the suspect. Blood magic especially so, since unlike regular magic, there is no way to counteract it. The Litany is as far as counter-blood magic got.

#461
LobselVith8

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Vandicus wrote...

Yes, innocent people die while templars try to stop the evil mages(specifically the evil ones). Innocent people die in real life over misunderstandings.


The example of Rylock shows that even templars can cross the line. Malcolm and his family were also hunted by the templars. They don't simply hunt "evil" mages.

Vandicus wrote...

Your suggestions do not provide an answer for how to avoid the necessity of shoot first and ask questions later when dealing with blood mages, unless you believe the task force would necessarily need to be willing to put themselves at the mercy of the suspect. Blood magic especially so, since unlike regular magic, there is no way to counteract it. The Litany is as far as counter-blood magic got.


Your suggestion would cause chaos and give people - including those who, as Cullen said in the Magi Origin, talk about killing mages with glee - the power over life and death when it comes to mages, regardless of whether they have done anything wrong or not.

#462
Vandicus

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LobselVith8 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Yes, innocent people die while templars try to stop the evil mages(specifically the evil ones). Innocent people die in real life over misunderstandings.


The example of Rylock shows that even templars can cross the line. Malcolm and his family were also hunted by the templars. They don't simply hunt "evil" mages.

Vandicus wrote...

Your suggestions do not provide an answer for how to avoid the necessity of shoot first and ask questions later when dealing with blood mages, unless you believe the task force would necessarily need to be willing to put themselves at the mercy of the suspect. Blood magic especially so, since unlike regular magic, there is no way to counteract it. The Litany is as far as counter-blood magic got.


Your suggestion would cause chaos and give people - including those who, as Cullen said in the Magi Origin, talk about killing mages with glee - the power over life and death when it comes to mages, regardless of whether they have done anything wrong or not.


My suggestion? The Circle system worked for centuries. I've got some ideas on how to remodel it and the templar system, but the premise seems pretty solid based on empirical evidence.

I would stick with a shoot first and ask questions later method when dealing with known blood mages. The casualties on the side of the investigators would outweight the deaths of innocent blood mages using a system where the investigator is put at the mercy of the suspect. 

Unlike what you pretend, there are laws and rules governing templar behavior, though perhaps not enough oversight. Your "solution" of putting the investigators in the hands of the suspects means blood mages can simply roam free, which I believe would cause more chaos and inevitability results in Tevinter.

#463
Warrior Craess

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Vandicus wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Warrior Craess wrote...

Never understood why people think Blood magic is somehow stronger than any other college of magic.


Because it actually amplifies the magic, much like an abundance of lyrium would do -- as having buckets of lyrium eliminates the need for a Mage to use his willpower to power a spell.

And the lore states that Templars can't negate its powers like they can to normal magic.


Plus it allows some things that Lyrium can't do. Perhaps most fearsome of which is mind control.


Which is more fearsdome than turning a person into a walking bomb how?  Or worse turning one victim into a bomb, and when he explodes everyone nearby also becomes a bomb? Or seeing a mage steal health from a pile of dead bodies? Or watching the mage transform into something else? 

I understand it's more efficient in some things. However game play wise it never pans out that way. Yes Jowen could send 1 person into the fade but given the likely outcome of that act, I'm not sure thats actually a benifit. 

There has always been a serious disconnect between what the lore states, and what the game plays. Not to mention there is a bias inherent to the game lore, designed to portray blood magic as being stronger and worse. Sadly I've seen no indication of it. 

#464
Vandicus

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Warrior Craess wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Warrior Craess wrote...

Never understood why people think Blood magic is somehow stronger than any other college of magic.


Because it actually amplifies the magic, much like an abundance of lyrium would do -- as having buckets of lyrium eliminates the need for a Mage to use his willpower to power a spell.

And the lore states that Templars can't negate its powers like they can to normal magic.


Plus it allows some things that Lyrium can't do. Perhaps most fearsome of which is mind control.


Which is more fearsdome than turning a person into a walking bomb how?  Or worse turning one victim into a bomb, and when he explodes everyone nearby also becomes a bomb? Or seeing a mage steal health from a pile of dead bodies? Or watching the mage transform into something else? 

I understand it's more efficient in some things. However game play wise it never pans out that way. Yes Jowen could send 1 person into the fade but given the likely outcome of that act, I'm not sure thats actually a benifit. 

There has always been a serious disconnect between what the lore states, and what the game plays. Not to mention there is a bias inherent to the game lore, designed to portray blood magic as being stronger and worse. Sadly I've seen no indication of it. 


Elementary. A king or ruler has far more power than the simple ability to kill a man. They can order an entire nation to war and create bloodshed on a vast scale. 

To help contextualize this, imagine the power of mind control in a modern setting. A person with mind control could cause WWIII or nuke the world into oblivion.

#465
dragonflight288

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Vandicus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Yes, innocent people die while templars try to stop the evil mages(specifically the evil ones). Innocent people die in real life over misunderstandings.


The example of Rylock shows that even templars can cross the line. Malcolm and his family were also hunted by the templars. They don't simply hunt "evil" mages.

Vandicus wrote...

Your suggestions do not provide an answer for how to avoid the necessity of shoot first and ask questions later when dealing with blood mages, unless you believe the task force would necessarily need to be willing to put themselves at the mercy of the suspect. Blood magic especially so, since unlike regular magic, there is no way to counteract it. The Litany is as far as counter-blood magic got.


Your suggestion would cause chaos and give people - including those who, as Cullen said in the Magi Origin, talk about killing mages with glee - the power over life and death when it comes to mages, regardless of whether they have done anything wrong or not.


My suggestion? The Circle system worked for centuries. I've got some ideas on how to remodel it and the templar system, but the premise seems pretty solid based on empirical evidence.

I would stick with a shoot first and ask questions later method when dealing with known blood mages. The casualties on the side of the investigators would outweight the deaths of innocent blood mages using a system where the investigator is put at the mercy of the suspect. 

Unlike what you pretend, there are laws and rules governing templar behavior, though perhaps not enough oversight. Your "solution" of putting the investigators in the hands of the suspects means blood mages can simply roam free, which I believe would cause more chaos and inevitability results in Tevinter.


The Circle system hasn't worked for centuries. There have been 17 annulments before Origins even began. Kirkwall has a templar deathsquad indiscriminately killing non mages and mages both. If you side with the mages in Act 3, Meredith has templars killing non-mage citizens who are connected to mages. We interupt them killing a woman who gave her mage cousin some food and a couch to sleep on for the night. That was her only crime and it was deserving of death.

The whole system was like a powder keg. It was ready to go off, and the pressure kept growing. Now that it's blown, there's no going back. The templars want their way and the mages are never going to willingly go back. And those same templars are so indoctrinated by their religious beliefs that they'll never allow mages any form of autonomy.

People with templar abilities are essential, but you can't blame people for something they're born with, condemning them to a life of having people have power over them and living in a gilded cage. Mages have said that being Orlesian Sex Slaves was preferable to living in the Circle (Fiona.)

The templars were never meant to have power over mages anyway. The mages are supposed to mind themselves, and the templars were to observe and advice. That was their only role. But it changed, and now they are glorified jail wardens. A mage can't legally be made tranquil without authorization from the First Enchanter and the Knight-Commander both....but that rule was ignored.

Apprentices, when they escape, are to be brought back alive. But the templar ran Aneirin through without a thought. The Grey Wardens have the authority to conscript anyone they choose, be they king or criminal, yet the templars ignored that AND the command of the King of Ferelden, because they felt their authority supercedes kings (Awakening.)

There are good templars, but the order as a whole has become corrupt, like there are good blood mages (Merrill, my Warden,) but blood mages as a whole (that we've seen so far at least) have a tendency to go "MUAHAHAHAHA! I'm Evil!"

You can't ban all blood magic, you'd ban the creation of Wardens, or the use of phylacteries. The Joining is a blood magic ritual. The Phylactery is a form of blood magic. And blood magic had to have been used by Adralla to experiment on creating the Litany. I highly doubt Adralla got it right on the first try without ever using blood magic mind control on someone to see if it could be blocked.

#466
Vandicus

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dragonflight288 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Yes, innocent people die while templars try to stop the evil mages(specifically the evil ones). Innocent people die in real life over misunderstandings.


The example of Rylock shows that even templars can cross the line. Malcolm and his family were also hunted by the templars. They don't simply hunt "evil" mages.

Vandicus wrote...

Your suggestions do not provide an answer for how to avoid the necessity of shoot first and ask questions later when dealing with blood mages, unless you believe the task force would necessarily need to be willing to put themselves at the mercy of the suspect. Blood magic especially so, since unlike regular magic, there is no way to counteract it. The Litany is as far as counter-blood magic got.


Your suggestion would cause chaos and give people - including those who, as Cullen said in the Magi Origin, talk about killing mages with glee - the power over life and death when it comes to mages, regardless of whether they have done anything wrong or not.


My suggestion? The Circle system worked for centuries. I've got some ideas on how to remodel it and the templar system, but the premise seems pretty solid based on empirical evidence.

I would stick with a shoot first and ask questions later method when dealing with known blood mages. The casualties on the side of the investigators would outweight the deaths of innocent blood mages using a system where the investigator is put at the mercy of the suspect. 

Unlike what you pretend, there are laws and rules governing templar behavior, though perhaps not enough oversight. Your "solution" of putting the investigators in the hands of the suspects means blood mages can simply roam free, which I believe would cause more chaos and inevitability results in Tevinter.


The Circle system hasn't worked for centuries. There have been 17 annulments before Origins even began. Kirkwall has a templar deathsquad indiscriminately killing non mages and mages both. If you side with the mages in Act 3, Meredith has templars killing non-mage citizens who are connected to mages. We interupt them killing a woman who gave her mage cousin some food and a couch to sleep on for the night. That was her only crime and it was deserving of death.

The whole system was like a powder keg. It was ready to go off, and the pressure kept growing. Now that it's blown, there's no going back. The templars want their way and the mages are never going to willingly go back. And those same templars are so indoctrinated by their religious beliefs that they'll never allow mages any form of autonomy.

People with templar abilities are essential, but you can't blame people for something they're born with, condemning them to a life of having people have power over them and living in a gilded cage. Mages have said that being Orlesian Sex Slaves was preferable to living in the Circle (Fiona.)

The templars were never meant to have power over mages anyway. The mages are supposed to mind themselves, and the templars were to observe and advice. That was their only role. But it changed, and now they are glorified jail wardens. A mage can't legally be made tranquil without authorization from the First Enchanter and the Knight-Commander both....but that rule was ignored.

Apprentices, when they escape, are to be brought back alive. But the templar ran Aneirin through without a thought. The Grey Wardens have the authority to conscript anyone they choose, be they king or criminal, yet the templars ignored that AND the command of the King of Ferelden, because they felt their authority supercedes kings (Awakening.)

There are good templars, but the order as a whole has become corrupt, like there are good blood mages (Merrill, my Warden,) but blood mages as a whole (that we've seen so far at least) have a tendency to go "MUAHAHAHAHA! I'm Evil!"

You can't ban all blood magic, you'd ban the creation of Wardens, or the use of phylacteries. The Joining is a blood magic ritual. The Phylactery is a form of blood magic. And blood magic had to have been used by Adralla to experiment on creating the Litany. I highly doubt Adralla got it right on the first try without ever using blood magic mind control on someone to see if it could be blocked.


The Circle system successfully prevented the rise of a new Tevinter Imperium for centuries. It succeeded at what it was meant to do for a very long time. Failure in the human element indicates a lack of proper safeguards, but does not mean that mages, let alone blood mages should be allowed to wander around freely.

Some such as Wynne and other senior mages can earn sufficient trust that they're allowed to travel around without supervision. Without going into too much detail for my own vision of how to remodel a Circle system is that mages would be taught to be like Jedi(and presented as such to the public). Educate the mages on how to use their magic, especially for healing and other benevolent purposes, and have them aid the public(which will help reduce superstition and fear regarding mages). Induct some mages as priests(priestesses?) of Andraste and make others members of the Templar order(although the leader should never simultaneously be a mage). 

Saying that being a slave is better than being part of the Circle is frankly ridiculous. There is no more severe abbrogation of freedom than slavery(well besides being mind controlled). Its not possible to have less freedom than being absolutely controlled/owned by someone else. Worst case scenario, the Circle is the equivalent of slavery. Minus abuses by members of the templars, the Circle from childhood to the age of 18 is not all that different from mandatory education(which is a thing, and a rather common one at that). The system can be improved to make it relatively humane, and its possible to allow mages who've proven their self-control most of the freedoms a normal person would have. To leave mages uneducated would be harmful to both themselves and society.

I did not suggest banning blood magic. I stated that whenever a known blood mage has become a possible threat, it is not practical to simply approach them and do a normal investigation. Not studying blood magic carries its own risks, because another group of people(the current Tevinter Imperium) will always be willing to use it.

#467
SafetyShattered

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I definately support this. There is a reason people fear blood magic, and if my mage chooses to pursue it I won't it to be unlike any other magic they've ever used. I want it to be insanely powerful. I mean come on, it comes from demons right? It should be like the strongest type of magic there is by a mile. I'd love it if DA3 gave you the option to sacrifice however much health you wanted to before you used blood magic. And the more damage you let yourself recieve the more potent it is. That'd be beast.

#468
Warrior Craess

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Vandicus wrote...

Warrior Craess wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Warrior Craess wrote...

Never understood why people think Blood magic is somehow stronger than any other college of magic.


Because it actually amplifies the magic, much like an abundance of lyrium would do -- as having buckets of lyrium eliminates the need for a Mage to use his willpower to power a spell.

And the lore states that Templars can't negate its powers like they can to normal magic.


Plus it allows some things that Lyrium can't do. Perhaps most fearsome of which is mind control.


Which is more fearsdome than turning a person into a walking bomb how?  Or worse turning one victim into a bomb, and when he explodes everyone nearby also becomes a bomb? Or seeing a mage steal health from a pile of dead bodies? Or watching the mage transform into something else? 

I understand it's more efficient in some things. However game play wise it never pans out that way. Yes Jowen could send 1 person into the fade but given the likely outcome of that act, I'm not sure thats actually a benifit. 

There has always been a serious disconnect between what the lore states, and what the game plays. Not to mention there is a bias inherent to the game lore, designed to portray blood magic as being stronger and worse. Sadly I've seen no indication of it. 


Elementary. A king or ruler has far more power than the simple ability to kill a man. They can order an entire nation to war and create bloodshed on a vast scale. 

To help contextualize this, imagine the power of mind control in a modern setting. A person with mind control could cause WWIII or nuke the world into oblivion.


bah, so the threat of subtlety effecting someone to commit a nation to war is frightening? umm doesn't take blood magic to do that either. Silver tongued devils, religious fanatics etc have been doing those types of things for ages and not a single drop of magic blood was used. 

Unscrupulous people could easily manipulate a monarch into launching a war.  And If I want to be subtle, casting walking bomb on someone while hiding and then blaming another nation for it, would be a good way to go.

Subtlety isn't limited to blood magic. Subtlety is in how you use what spells/skills you know. Game mechanics aside, any mage that doesn't want to broadcast his power could achieve the same ends as a blood mage. He would just do it differently. 

#469
Warrior Craess

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seriously the argument that mind control allows you do do far more harm than any other type of magic is flawed. Mind control of a monarch leading to war isn't as simple as casting a spell and walking away. that mind control needs to be persistent and monitored, where as simply convincing that same monarch by a subtle use of magic to influence his thinking to align with yours, allows the mage greater freedom.

The other argument; that it is learned from demons is also false. Demons don't exist, spirits do (we just call them demons) Spirits that may or may not be malignant in nature. Justice turned to a pretty evil force as vengence, however desire could be a positive force if it's used to better a person. I desire to learn more medical skills, so I enroll in paramedic classes  for example. Rage is portrayed as a demon, but properly harnessed rage can be a great motivator. Pride, possibly the strongest of the "demons" is certainly capable of being a positive influence on things. 

lastly Meredith demonstrates quite aptly that magic is not a requirement for being power hungry, manipulative, and basically pretty evil. She's abusive, intolerant and would purge magic and anyone related to magic from the world. She's exactly the type of person that Andraste would have found appalling. Yet somehow she's in charge of the Templars, and her actions lead the entire Templar organization to leave the chantry.

the only conclusion I can reach on this, is that the Templars (and the Chantry) have decided that blood magic is evil, and a threat to their order, hence it must be eradicated. Regardless of the fact that how a person uses any skills (magic or otherwise) is the real evil, not the skills themselves. I interpret this as a means in which the religious fanatics can stay in power... an all together evil act in and of itself.

Modifié par Warrior Craess, 08 octobre 2012 - 07:19 .


#470
Cultist

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Ah, it's neverending fun to argue with a fundie.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Your counter-examples are idiots as they are pointless.

I can't believe you're seriously comparing templars with mind-controling blood magic.

Blood mages need to die.
All of them.
Anything else is utter irresonsibiltiy towards TheDas.

Yes, I already know you are fond of calling idiotic, stupid and else every question and thesis you can't properly answer on.

Inquisition started merely as a means to investigate, control and counter heresies, initially not using tortures and rarely using death penalty, preferring less harsh sentences. And look how great things turned out!

The funny thing is - you are the best example of why mages oppose templars and why their rebellion is just.

At first glace at least.
What if it turns out that the OGB is a vessel for Flemeth? Or a new, more powerfull archdemon?

It doesn't matter. Her theory preserved Warden's life. Nothing else matters.

Vandicus wrote...
Now lets take a look at mages. Lets say 1 in
100 turns to blood magic(the ratio is probably actually a lot higher),
and the average kills that a blood mage commits is 300(some blood mages
kill an extraordinarily high amount, some very little, but the average
is probably fairly high). Statistically speaking, killing every mage,
let alone every blood mage, saves lives on balance.

300? Why not 29471? Where did you get this numbers from? I mean where did you get any of this numbers?

Let's look at this the other way - The police force, that has absolute power over certain social group and actively using and abusing their power, forced mages to turn to Blood Magic just to save their lives and protect themselves.

#471
coldSnap

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both sides have flaws and good points just like the grand cleric said, so i dont really think either side is absolutely right or wrong imho

#472
dragonflight288

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Vandicus wrote...

The Circle system successfully prevented the rise of a new Tevinter Imperium for centuries. It succeeded at what it was meant to do for a very long time. Failure in the human element indicates a lack of proper safeguards, but does not mean that mages, let alone blood mages should be allowed to wander around freely.

Some such as Wynne and other senior mages can earn sufficient trust that they're allowed to travel around without supervision. Without going into too much detail for my own vision of how to remodel a Circle system is that mages would be taught to be like Jedi(and presented as such to the public). Educate the mages on how to use their magic, especially for healing and other benevolent purposes, and have them aid the public(which will help reduce superstition and fear regarding mages). Induct some mages as priests(priestesses?) of Andraste and make others members of the Templar order(although the leader should never simultaneously be a mage). 

Saying that being a slave is better than being part of the Circle is frankly ridiculous. There is no more severe abbrogation of freedom than slavery(well besides being mind controlled). Its not possible to have less freedom than being absolutely controlled/owned by someone else. Worst case scenario, the Circle is the equivalent of slavery. Minus abuses by members of the templars, the Circle from childhood to the age of 18 is not all that different from mandatory education(which is a thing, and a rather common one at that). The system can be improved to make it relatively humane, and its possible to allow mages who've proven their self-control most of the freedoms a normal person would have. To leave mages uneducated would be harmful to both themselves and society.

I did not suggest banning blood magic. I stated that whenever a known blood mage has become a possible threat, it is not practical to simply approach them and do a normal investigation. Not studying blood magic carries its own risks, because another group of people(the current Tevinter Imperium) will always be willing to use it.


Let's go back in history. Andraste raised a rebellion against Tevinter, freed the south, was betrayed by Mafarath, got executed. For 100 years, there was no chantry after that event.

There were dozens of Andrastian cults (Haven being an example as one that predates the Chantry, had revered fathers and mages in positions of power....they were total nutcases who worshipped a dragon, but they did predate the chantry.)

For 100 years, mages were free. They were still feared by the vast populace because the Tevinter Imperium was still a fresh memory. After 100 years, Emperor Drakon chose one of the Andrastian cults which matched his ideals, and used that to justify his desire to conquer everyone else. The Chantry and Orlais has always had similar interests as a result of them rising at the same time.

After the Chantry rose, there still weren't ANY circles at all. Mages were delegated to lighting candles and cleaning....that was all they were allowed to do. The Circles rose up as a compromise because the Divine wanted to call an Exalted March on her own cathedral because the mages were having a peaceful protest.

The Circles were never designed to prevent the rise of another Imperium. It was designed to be a place where mages could practice magic freely, govern themselves, and to separate themselves from the populace that feared them, and the templars would observe and advice them, on the lookout for signs of corruption.

Leading up to the rise of the Circles, there never was any sign that the mages as a whole wanted a new Imperium.

As for saying slavery was preferable to the Circle...I've never been a slave. I've never been a mage or lived in the Circle. But, if a person is born a slave, raised as a slave, and then suddenly freed, they may not know how to live outside of it. We see that in Fenris's side quests, with that elven slave we can take as a servant, give her some money, or to take on as our own slave. Fenris's own sister says freedom from slavery was not a boon. It's the change of the entire way of life they have that throws them for a loop.

Fiona was a sex slave to orlesians. Then she was freed, joined the Circle and the eventually the Grey Wardens. She has stated that being a sex slave was preferable than living in the circle. Based on my lack of experience as a slave or living under conditions that the Circle is based on....I have to take the characters own views as eye witnesses.

One or two people can be dismissed. But we have several characters through two games who make it very clear that the Circle is a HORRIBLE place to live. Since we have so many characters saying that, then we can only assume that they are all telling the truth.

#473
EmperorSahlertz

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We also have several characters throughout two games saying that the Circle ISN'T that bad to live in...

#474
Arokel

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

We also have several characters throughout two games saying that the Circle ISN'T that bad to live in...


And one of those was a young girl who had been convinced her magic was a curse and a sign of the Maker's hatred for her.

#475
EmperorSahlertz

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Another was a young girl who had lived most of her life as a free apostate, and still liked the Circle more... What's your point?