2177 réponses à ce sujet

[dragonflight288]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

If the ratio for trained killers to go on a berserk rampage was anywhere near the ratio of mages succumbing to demons, I would want trained killers under surveillance aswell.....

A trained killer's entire job description revolves around killing people. A mage can be the best doctor available. A trained killer usually only has skills to kill people.

Irrelevant to the point I was making. A mage can still be a healer if he is within the Circle.

Let's assume that mages are happy living in the circle. These mages become the best healers around.

But that then raises the question, where are the patients? The Circle System prevents these mages from leaving the tower except on special occasions like war (and even then, only a select few can leave, evidenced by Origins.)

The average citizen would have to go to an apothocary for some poultices or use herbs if they have the knowledge. The best healing would only be gained by those wealthy enough to go to the Circles, the people wealthy enough to pay the Circle to bring the mage to them, or the people who live in proximity to the Circle. And even then, the templars may have issue with that.

The Spirit Healers, possibly the best healers in the world of thedas, are one of the most closely watched by the templars, and are only tolerated because of the good they do (spirit healer spec description.)

So yes, we can have a great healer. But that healer wouldn't be of much use on the average day because of the Circle system itself. Anders lived free of the circle and used his magic to help people for free, and these refugees were more than willing to give their lives to protect him.

Why then, is the Circle so necessary that after the training period in controlling their powers, that mages must continue to live there when they could be using their powers to help people, serve their country, or do other such things?

[DPSSOC]

[quote]DuskWarden wrote...
Avernus's mistake was hardly a mistake though. He was driven to summon more and more demons from across the veil because his life, and the lives of his fellow Wardens, were in grave danger. That wasn't just an accident whilst tinkering around with something like Wilhelm's was. He was pushed and forced to do something he wasn't certain about.[/quote]
 
Avernus was actually quite certain he could control them, he says so himself, he miscalculated.

[quote]DuskWarden wrote...
So by all accounts, experienced mages making significant mistakes which cause harm are exceedingly rare. Also, men with swords and bows are perfectly capable of causing harm by accident too. In training you could put too much force behind the blow by accident and break your partner's neck. Or slip whilst drawing an arrow, which goes off in an unintended direction and kills someone.[/quote]

Yes men with swords and bows can cause harm by accident, but it's singular.  If you "accidentally" harm more than one person with a sword or bow (in one instance) it's not an accident anymore.  I can say I didn't mean to trip you the first time but that falls flat (if you'll pardon the pun) the second.

As for experienced mages making mistakes being rare, certainly, but they still happen, and they still have to potential to do a lot of damage.  Kinda like somebody making pipebombs in their garage, it's entirely possible that nothing will go wrong and everybody will be fine, but because there's a chance that something could go wrong and people could die, we don't let people do it.

[quote]DuskWarden wrote...
Even if you disagree with all of that, surely the best people to deal with mages who mistakes are other mages?[/quote]

Yes which is why I support keeping mages and magical research confined to isolated facilities so that if something does go wrong there are always people on hand who to handle it.  Again had Wilhelm's tinkering gone much worse who was there to contain it?  Nobody.  Do we really want to just hope that every free mage will have at least one mage neighbour who knows just as much if not more?

[quote]DuskWarden wrote...
Why exactly do the mages need to live in what is at best a gilded prison, and at worst abuse, when they are perfectly capable of looking after themselves?[/quote]

Because when free to roam and look after themselves you can't guarantee the necessary support structure and safeguards.  How many mages will be like Wilhelm and set up their own little retreat in a remote village somewhere?  Who contains their accidents?  Or if a mage is out in the wilderness, miles from anybody, and accidentally unleashes a demon who's there to stop it?  Who even knows about it?  With the Circle system you have most, ideally all, mages in one spot, you know where they are, what they're doing, and most importantly you know if something goes wrong it can be contained before it becomes a serious problem.

Edit: I agree mages should be treated better, but I still support locking them away for as long as  they can do magic.

[quote]DKJaigen wrote...
In short humans are dangerous and it has nothing to do with magic, Their are people in this world that could kill and your entire family and get away with it. Think about it for a moment. In our own world their people who are trained killers if they go berserk or make mistakes people die.[/quote]

Yes and those people, in any half decent society, are watched to some degree or another.

[quote]DKJaigen wrote...
Saying that you need people at your command to be is idiotic. Hitler was a nobody that managed to inspire the Germans to do both great and horrible things because he was such a great orator.[/quote]

Kinda making my point here. Hitler wasn't dangerous until he got people to follow him. He couldn't have pulled off anything he wanted to do without that support.

[quote]DKJaigen wrote...
Do we kill great orators because they can inspire people? no, Do we kill briljant scientist because they can develop doomsday weapons? no. Do we kill great stratergist because they can conquer the world? no.[/quote]

Can any of those people do anything without tools, materials, and support?  No. Can a mage level a village without meaning to in nothing but his pajamas?  Yes.

[quote]DKJaigen wrote...
And i dont support weakness. if the common population canot take care of themselves then they are doing it wrong because their are plenty of ways to use supernatural abilites without the use of magic. But the they rather be sheep to the chantry then become something better. [/quote]

Such as?  I'm genuinely curious, what means of countering magic does Average Joe have access to?

[quote]Warrior Craess wrote...
wow so much error in that.

Your one mage example only works if there is 1 mage, with nothing to counter him. Considering that there is an entire army of people dedicated to negating a mages power your argument is poinmtless. This also only assumes that mages (blood or otherwise) would all be interested in gaining power regardless of the cost.[/quote]

No my argument wasn't one of intent it was one of scope. A lord or Knight Commander needs people to follow them in order to match the destructive potential of 1 mage. 1 normal person cannot match that. Yes there are tools people can use, explosives and what not, to achieve it but all a mage needs is a bad attitude. Yes if I could get my hands on an automatic rifle, and some C-4, and a couple grenades, I could be incredibly dangerous. Thankfully those things are all rather hard to come by and acquiring any one of them risks alerting the authorities. If I could just walk into the middle of a shopping mall and explode. needing no materials or equipment but my person, that'd be a completely different story.

[quote]Warrior Craess wrote...
There are plenty of mages who would work to counter selfish, power hungry mages, such as Wynn, Anders, Irving etc...[/quote]

Can you name one who has? Can you name one mage who's stepped forward and stood against the worst among them? Wynne and Irving only did it in DA:O because Uldred and his forces were trying to kill them, but aside from the PC we have no examples of mages putting their own necks on the line to stop those among them who seek to do wrong when they didn't have to, and even the PC was kind of forced.

[quote]Warrior Craess wrote...
It also fails to take into account the keepers. Who while very powerful, don't seem to be abusing their power, nor do they seem to be trying to subjugate other clans or humans... (getting even for crimes commited against them? yes and overly zealous in that at times.. but not typically.)[/quote]

Again I made no assumptions on intent, only potential. The greater potential for harm mages represent when compared to normal people demands they be treated differently. Just like we don't treat people who have weapons or hand to hand training as being no more dangerous than Average Joe. However on the Keepers; yes the Keepers who maintain uncontested, unquestioned rule over their clans by sole virtue of being mages, yeah they aren't subjugating anybody or abusing their power at all.

[quote]Warrior Craess wrote...
So again individual power or capability doesn't justify treating people as having less rights than others.[/quote]

Yeah, it does. Because those people have a responsibility to the rest of the populace. Again if I could just explode at will I guarantee you I'd have most, if not all, of my rights stripped away because of it. We sacrficie our rights and freedoms every day for the safety of others. My rights end when they impose upon yours, a mage's right to freedom imposes on everyone else right to security so they don't get it.

[quote]Warrior Craess wrote...
Next comes the flawed argument of accidental devastation. What about Dvorkin Glavonak? Seems to me that his explosive recipe would allow just about anyone to be devestating by accident. Whose to say that some human doesn't decide to follow up his idea's and provide a non magical means of countering the Qunari? Who also have this non magical means of destruction.[/quote]

Again these people require tools and materials not readily available. A mage requires nothing. Average Joe isn't going to suddenly have a bomb appear in his hand and go off. Intent is required for non-mages to be dangerous on a large scale, not the case for mages.

[quote]Warrior Craess wrote...
People by they're very existance endanger others around them. How much danger they represent is based not on if they can cast a spell or not, but on their genetics and environmental development.[/quote]

Since magic has been established as a hereditary trait would it not fall under genetics?

[quote]Warrior Craess wrote...
treating people who are individually more powerful than you, as a second class person, leads not to their control, but eventually to their rebellion. It's called a self fulfilling prophcey. The Chantry and Templars are prime examples of just how not to treat mages.
[/quote]

The mages were being malevolent overlords long before the Chantry and Templars came to be and they'll continue to be long after they're gone. However this is not a matter of intent, this is not about malevolence or kindness, it's about the danger these people present by just being. No tools, no assistance, just them, and they can level cities. That kind of danger you keep isolated, and you watch it.

Modifié par DPSSOC, 10 octobre 2012 - 02:20 .

[Josielyn]

Fiacre wrote...

Out of universe, I... actually trust Flemeth. My Wardens don't, because she's potentially a threat to Morrigan and Morrigan is either their best friend or LI, but me, personally? I don't think Flemeth is planning the destruction of Thedas or anything like that. I could be wrong, of course, but at the moment, I think she's more likely to be one of the good guys / an anti hero, than an outright enemy. ...Though her methods are likely... questionable.

--
I am glad I am not the only one who feels this way! Maybe I just like Flemeth because she can turn into a dragon without slitting any throats.
--

[Warrior Craess]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Warrior Craess wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Irrelevant to the point I was making. A mage can still be a healer if he is within the Circle.

Really so there are no skilled healer Keapers? or appostates? Pretty sure Anders was a skilled healer, and he wanted nothing to do with the circle. 

Also irrelevant to the point I was making... I wasn't saying that you had to be in the Circle to be a healer, I said you could be a healer and STILL be in the Circle...

Warrior Craess wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

If the ratio for trained killers to go on a berserk rampage was anywhere near the ratio of mages succumbing to demons, I would want trained killers under surveillance aswell.....

One word for you: PTSD. But we are not going to lock up our veterans because they may become a danger. Also we dont know the ratio of mages succumbing to demons but i blame it soley on poor education that the chantry provides the mages

Lots of soldiers suffer from PTSD, an extremely few amount of them ever go a berserk rampage. So few, that to lock them all up, would be wasted resources. About mages its another story...

two words for you...

Hells Angels... look up who started that group. And they were not even suffering from PTSD. Just how much human misery can be laid directly at their feet? 

Some poor shmuck looking for a better cleaner mixes bleach and ammonia together... bad combination, but someone else say ohhh hey that would be a heck of a weapon... and next thing we have is mustard gas.  You know that there are still fields in france that seep mustard gas and are very dangerous to unwary travelers? and that was from WW1.. almost 100 years ago.  

Magic isn't the danger, not even accidently.  People are the danger.  only way to remove the danger that people (humans elf, dwarf, Qunari, or darkspawn) represent it to make them all extinct. Other that that, treat them appropriately raise them properly and count on the good ones to counter the bad ones. 

Are you honestly trying to compare a motorcycle club (with some criminal branches) to an abomination outbreak?  That is just dumb....

no dumber than saying magic is any more inherently dangerous than anything else. 

Magic is a tool, nothing more. Some people make bomb, drugs, and kill people.. they don't need magic to be a terrible person. yet somehow you keep advocating that magic is somehow worse.  Alfred Noble invented dynamite from which many of explosives got their beginning,  A world changing invention and no magic involved. 

your just like those anti-gun fanatics.. blaming the fault on something that can't do anything on it's own, makes no decisions on it's own. Not to mention that both good deeds and evil deeds can be done with it. 

It's the people that are the problem. Not the tool.  Any other argument is lacking in logic and thought.   Guns, magic, chemicals, drugs, spears, bows and arrows, swords, rocks  etc don't kill..  it's the people using them that does. 

[Warrior Craess]

Wow really DPPSOC you want me to name a mage wqho step forth and helped police their own? But I can't use the circle members who did, because it was in their self interest? The Keeps for one, and their apprentices, My mage character,

here in lies the problem with your argument, that none have been done so in lore hence non will do so.

1st the lore is hardly a complete world history. The lore of ancient civilizations are nothing but legend because it never happened due to it being a game, Same holds true for most of the current lore. It's a game it's focus is on the current characters not the previous 1000 years.

2nd what lore we have is based on the prejudices of the society we are playing in. We play in a system in which the circle, and the Templars are the preferred means of controlling mages. We play in a society where mages and magic are considered inherently bad things. We play in a society where everyone is taught that magic ultimately corrupts the user, that they will inevitably choose blood magic. The game wants to portray mages as persecuted (in this game world they even have a slight justification for it -Tevinter). Therefore everything in the game is going to reflect that desire.

We are talking about the facts behind it. it boils down to the simple fact that magic is nothing more than a tool you are born with. it only corrupts if the society and environment around it allow for it to do so. Even Fenris allows for the fact that there are good Majestrates in Tevinter. A minority from his view point but they are bound to exist.

The system of the circle will inevitably lead to rebellion. Repression of a people for no other reason than they are born differently will always lead to rebellion. Especially if they are individually more powerful that the repressors.

[Warrior Craess]

DPPSOC wrote....

[quote]
Warrior Craess wrote...[quote]
wow so much error in that.

Your one mage example only works if there is 1 mage, with nothing to counter him. Considering that there is an entire army of people dedicated to negating a mages power your argument is poinmtless. This also only assumes that mages (blood or otherwise) would all be interested in gaining power regardless of the cost.
[/quote]

No my argument wasn't one of intent it was one of scope. A lord or Knight Commander needs people to follow them in order to match the destructive potential of 1 mage. 1 normal person cannot match that. Yes there are tools people can use, explosives and what not, to achieve it but all a mage needs is a bad attitude. Yes if I could get my hands on an automatic rifle, and some C-4, and a couple grenades, I could be incredibly dangerous. Thankfully those things are all rather hard to come by and acquiring any one of them risks alerting the authorities. If I could just walk into the middle of a shopping mall and explode. needing no materials or equipment but my person, that'd be a completely different story. [/quote]

It's always a matter of intent, the tools needed to be destructive are only limited by a persons mind. Any person can be dangerous. Any person can be dangerous on a massive scale if they want to be, and they use their brain to think of a way to do so. 

DPPSOC wrote...[quote]
Warrior Craess wrote...[quote]
There are plenty of mages who would work to counter selfish, power hungry mages, such as Wynn, Anders, Irving etc...[/quote]

Can you name one who has? Can you name one mage who's stepped forward and stood against the worst among them? Wynne and Irving only did it in DA:O because Uldred and his forces were trying to kill them, but aside from the PC we have no examples of mages putting their own necks on the line to stop those among them who seek to do wrong when they didn't have to, and even the PC was kind of forced.
[/quote]

Answered in early post. lack of examples doesn't disprove their existance. It just shows that the game creators choose to portray mages in a specific light.  And limiting the example set away from mages in circle is a cheap tactic. Most mages belong to the circle, and they do police themselves. 

DPPSOC wrote...[quote]
Warrior Craess wrote...[quote]
It also fails to take into account the keepers. Who while very powerful, don't seem to be abusing their power, nor do they seem to be trying to subjugate other clans or humans... (getting even for crimes commited against them? yes and overly zealous in that at times.. but not typically.) [/quote]


Again I made no assumptions on intent, only potential. The greater potential for harm mages represent when compared to normal people demands they be treated differently. Just like we don't treat people who have weapons or hand to hand training as being no more dangerous than Average Joe. However on the Keepers; yes the Keepers who maintain uncontested, unquestioned rule over their clans by sole virtue of being mages, yeah they aren't subjugating anybody or abusing their power at all. [/quote]

Do you even begin to know what your talking about?  I know martial arts, I boxed, I have more than a little knowledge of Judo,  I spent time in the military, where I learned how to make IED's and lethal booby traps, where I became very good at shooting weapons. I am treated exactly the same as everyone else. I have no fewer rights, I have no less access to whatever I want. I were to commit a crime I might be held to higher standards. However that would be done after the fact. Not before hand. 

Wierd that when we played as a Dalish elf, I never felt abused, or subjugated. Just becuase they are in charge doesn't mean they are doing it against the will of their clan. Nor does it mean that if they are possessed by a demon that their clan won't kill them. just ask Merril about it. 

DPPSOC wrote...[quote]
Warrior Craess wrote...[quote]
So again individual power or capability doesn't justify treating people as having less rights than others.[/quote]


Yeah, it does. Because those people have a responsibility to the rest of the populace. Again if I could just explode at will I guarantee you I'd have most, if not all, of my rights stripped away because of it. We sacrficie our rights and freedoms every day for the safety of others. My rights end when they impose upon yours, a mage's right to freedom imposes on everyone else right to security so they don't get it.[/quote]

Actually you could explode, quite easily if you only thought about it for a few minutes (and the tools needed to make yourself do so can be found at the local radio shack), or you could fall asleep at the wheel of your car and run into a house, or you could be drunk at the helm of a ship and cuase a huge amount of environmental damage when you run aground and leak oil everywhere. Or you could be driving the ferry and run into another ship, sinking the ferry and killing hundreds... The capability to harm exists, it even exist on a massive scale and we are absolutely not treated any different. 

DPPSOC wrote...[quote]
Warrior Craess wrote...[quote]
Next comes the flawed argument of accidental devastation. What about Dvorkin Glavonak? Seems to me that his explosive recipe would allow just about anyone to be devestating by accident. Whose to say that some human doesn't decide to follow up his idea's and provide a non magical means of countering the Qunari? Who also have this non magical means of destruction. [/quote]


Again these people require tools and materials not readily available. A mage requires nothing. Average Joe isn't going to suddenly have a bomb appear in his hand and go off. Intent is required for non-mages to be dangerous on a large scale, not the case for mages.[/quote]

um lyrium is hard to get as a dwarf how?  pretty sure I was offered a side mission of delivering smuggled lyrium to mages in DA:O can't be that hard to get.  Bat guano, and suffer is hard to get how?  Gasoline, cotten and a closed container is hard to get how?  Bleach and ammonia is hard to get in what way? 

DPPSOC wrote...[quote]
Warrior Craess wrote...[quote]
People by they're very existance endanger others around them. How much danger they represent is based not on if they can cast a spell or not, but on their genetics and environmental development.[/quote]


Since magic has been established as a hereditary trait would it not fall under genetics? [/quote]

Genetics meaning their personality make up. genetics and environment determine how a person is going to think, feel, and act.  magic would be included as a part of both, but it wouldn't be the primary factor. 

DPPSOC wrote...[quote]
Warrior Craess wrote...[quote]
treating people who are individually more powerful than you, as a second class person, leads not to their control, but eventually to their rebellion. It's called a self fulfilling prophcey. The Chantry and Templars are prime examples of just how not to treat mages. [/quote]


The mages were being malevolent overlords long before the Chantry and Templars came to be and they'll continue to be long after they're gone. However this is not a matter of intent, this is not about malevolence or kindness, it's about the danger these people present by just being. No tools, no assistance, just them, and they can level cities. That kind of danger you keep isolated, and you watch it.
[/quote]

no one society was ruled by malevolent overlords, Tevinter. We know nothing of any other societies, though obviously they existed. We know nothing of the Elven society, but nothing so far has shown that they were lead by malevolent mages. In fact their current society speaks volumes against your argument. The keeps seem to do very well at avoid demonic influence, and of avoiding turning into power hungry despots who abuse everything in sight. 

regardless of what you think, it is always a matter of intent. How about a person with several gallons of bleach and ammonia? Or someone with a propane tank, Gasoline and tide soap? Or lets go a bit further out, and talk about people like the Uni-bomber, or Timothy McVeigh? Nothing they used was all that difficult to get. And they did some pretty bad things. Or let’s consider 9/11.... Not a bit a magic involved, and nothing that took anything all that difficult to achieve. I say this because every always falls into the trap that it's not people that are dangerous, it's always the guns, or the bombs, the magic, etc.. It’s freaking people. Humans’ willing to do whatever it takes to achieve their goals. That you fail to see this is incredible to me.

Modifié par Warrior Craess, 10 octobre 2012 - 05:13 .

[Xilizhra]

A mage, by their mere existence, endangers everyone around them. It sucks but those are the breaks. So do we let the public face that risk with no means of protecting themselves from malicious or accidental magical harm, or do we keep a small portion of the population confined for their protection?

An easy enough solution: have dangerous magic workings be restricted to specific areas, but allow mages more freedom of movement and use of non-dangerous magic elsewhere. We may forbid people from building pipe bombs in garages, but we don't make it illegal for people to have garages.

[DPSSOC]

Warrior Craess wrote...
It is always a matter of intent.

 
Ugh no it isn't.  My entire point is that a mage, without intending to, can cause a level of harm that demands intent by anyone else.  You get that?  What a mage can do without meaning to, without even trying, can only be matched by malicious intent by normal people.  Normal people can't level a building in the blink of an eye without trying.  Normal people can't kill 10-15 people just as quickly without trying.  All it takes is one slip, one mistake, and even the most well meaning mage in the world can level a village and raise the entire population as an undead army.  No normal person in the DA universe can do that by accident.

[DPSSOC]

Xilizhra wrote...

A mage, by their mere existence, endangers everyone around them. It sucks but those are the breaks. So do we let the public face that risk with no means of protecting themselves from malicious or accidental magical harm, or do we keep a small portion of the population confined for their protection?

An easy enough solution: have dangerous magic workings be restricted to specific areas, but allow mages more freedom of movement and use of non-dangerous magic elsewhere. We may forbid people from building pipe bombs in garages, but we don't make it illegal for people to have garages.

No such thing.  You are harnessing one of the fundamental forces of the universe and bending it to your will.  No matter what purpose you're putting it towards that is never not dangerous.

[Ahglock]

Warrior Craess wrote...


We are talking about the facts behind it. it boils down to the simple fact that magic is nothing more than a tool you are born with. it only corrupts if the society and environment around it allow for it to do so. Even Fenris allows for the fact that there are good Majestrates in Tevinter. A minority from his view point but they are bound to exist.

That is not a fact.  A handful of people claim it but that does not make it a fact.  I'd go so far as to say the opposite is much closer to being a fact given the mage origin in dragon age origins.  The entire go into the fade and face a demon and prove it wont corrupt you thing kind of shows that there are signifigant danger of corruption from far more than society.  A mages inherent connection to the fade is a huge danger of corruption.

[Warrior Craess]

DPSSOC wrote...

Warrior Craess wrote...
It is always a matter of intent.

 
Ugh no it isn't.  My entire point is that a mage, without intending to, can cause a level of harm that demands intent by anyone else.  You get that?  What a mage can do without meaning to, without even trying, can only be matched by malicious intent by normal people.  Normal people can't level a building in the blink of an eye without trying.  Normal people can't kill 10-15 people just as quickly without trying.  All it takes is one slip, one mistake, and even the most well meaning mage in the world can level a village and raise the entire population as an undead army.  No normal person in the DA universe can do that by accident.

No a mage can't do it by accident. A mage isn't going to blow up a city by accident, a mage isn't going to mind control a king into going to war by accident. A mage isn't going to send thousand and hundred of thousands people on exalted marches by accident. A mage isn't going to level a building by accident. 

It takes training to become a danger to much more than yourself, and that training precludes accidently blowing up a building. 

Ohh a mage might become an abomination.. Oh noes what can we do?   How about treating mages as regular people, so that they don't seek out demons in order to escape. How about the Templars being paired up with mages to speficially help protect them against such a thing? Instead of watching over them as distrustful executioners. Of all the cases we've witnessed in the games of people becoming abominations, very few did so out of a pursuit of power, or by accident. They almost all did so willingly, in order to escape the cruelty of the templars, and the repression of the circle system. 

[Warrior Craess]

Ahglock wrote...

Warrior Craess wrote...


We are talking about the facts behind it. it boils down to the simple fact that magic is nothing more than a tool you are born with. it only corrupts if the society and environment around it allow for it to do so. Even Fenris allows for the fact that there are good Majestrates in Tevinter. A minority from his view point but they are bound to exist.

That is not a fact.  A handful of people claim it but that does not make it a fact.  I'd go so far as to say the opposite is much closer to being a fact given the mage origin in dragon age origins.  The entire go into the fade and face a demon and prove it wont corrupt you thing kind of shows that there are signifigant danger of corruption from far more than society.  A mages inherent connection to the fade is a huge danger of corruption.

Made worse by their constant fear of magic, and the repercussion of it.  Most mages that take the ritual pass it.  Many are too afraid to take becuase they know that the templars arn't there to protect them... but to kill them if they fail. The environment that mages are raised in is not condusive to their well being, mental or physical. 

Again we have to look at the keepers who are respected, and looked up to in their clans, and seem to not fall prey to the demons all that often. 

How you treat mages definitively effects how they interact with the fade, and with you. 

[Warrior Craess]

DPSSOC wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

A mage, by their mere existence, endangers everyone around them. It sucks but those are the breaks. So do we let the public face that risk with no means of protecting themselves from malicious or accidental magical harm, or do we keep a small portion of the population confined for their protection?

An easy enough solution: have dangerous magic workings be restricted to specific areas, but allow mages more freedom of movement and use of non-dangerous magic elsewhere. We may forbid people from building pipe bombs in garages, but we don't make it illegal for people to have garages.

No such thing.  You are harnessing one of the fundamental forces of the universe and bending it to your will.  No matter what purpose you're putting it towards that is never not dangerous.

Spoken like a true chantry zealot.  

[Face of Evil]

Warrior Craess wrote...

A mage isn't going to level a building by accident.

Yes, a mage can. There are many cases of mages causing small disasters when their powers are still developing — unexplained fires and such. And then each mage is capable of becoming an abomination, which are responsible for some of the greatest atrocities in Thedas.

Warrior Craess wrote...

Ohh a mage might become an abomination.. Oh noes what can we do?   How about treating mages as regular people, so that they don't seek out demons in order to escape.

Except that demonic possession can occur even when a mage isn't trying to resist templars. Not every abomination was created because a mage was being bullied; some of them are just mages who are too weak to resist possession, and some of them are just power-hungry fools who thought they could play with dark magics and get away with it.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 10 octobre 2012 - 05:38 .

[goofyomnivore]

Mages are superior beings. They will always be abnormal in normal society. They have a very powerful gift. They should be encouraged to use it for good. However the system currently constantly reminds them of the evils and what a potential menace they are. Often limiting their potential because of fear. I'd assume it is quite toxic to any mage's growth as a person and mage.

I agree there needs to be checks and balances between mages, templars and society, but the current system is way too toxic.

[Urzon]

Some people make it sound like when a mage coughs and sneezes at the same time, there is a 50% chance he will set fire to the surrounding areas, killing hundreds of people!  That's why they do magical training in the Circle. Children have a hard time controlling their magic at a young age, like in Wynne's case, but training up to to even the apprentice level gives them enough control so those accidents don't happen.

Abominations are also a problem, but even the abomination codex, itself, states that abominations are rare. We only see them so often because we are playing the heros in a game. Redcliff was a perfect storm of fail on three fronts: Jowen being stupid, Isolde fearing for her family and position, and Thedas' view on mages. The Ferelden Circle was the absolute worst case scenario, and woot for Gregoire doing his job expertly. And finally.... Kirkwall. The city with demons, abominations, and blood mages pouring out of the woodwork, and we are given the reasoning that "Kirkwall has a thin Veil". Which boils down to, the game makers padding the gametime by overloading the game with enemies. Even if it makes no sense for that number of enemies being there, and why with that many demons and abominations, isn't Kirkwall an smoldering hellscape?

[Warrior Craess]

Face of Evil wrote...

Warrior Craess wrote...

A mage isn't going to level a building by accident.

Yes, a mage can. There are many cases of mages causing small disasters when their powers are still developing — unexplained fires and such. And then each mage is capable of becoming an abomination, which are responsible for some of the greatest atrocities in Thedas.

remind me again why chicago s called the second city? Were any mages involved in that? remind me again what atrocities took place in dahmer's house? Or john Wayne Gacy's?  Were they demon pocessed abominations? 

yes magic can make things worse, magic however can also make things better. The real danger is the person and how they are treated goes a long way towards determining just how dangerous that person is. 

Face of Evil wrote...

Warrior Craess wrote...

Ohh a mage might become an abomination.. Oh noes what can we do?   How about treating mages as regular people, so that they don't seek out demons in order to escape.

Except that demonic possession can occur even when a mage isn't trying to resist templars. Not every abomination was created because a mage was being bullied; some of them are just mages who are too weak to resist possession, and some of them are just power-hungry fools who thought they could play with dark magics and get away with it.

Which is a direct failing of the teaching and culture that they are raised in. If you teach a person from the time they are a little kid that they have no worth and are better off dead is it any wonder that they have low self esteem and can be tempted by unsavory types? 

Modifié par Warrior Craess, 10 octobre 2012 - 07:10 .

[Warrior Craess]

as for those people saying that mages accidently setting towns on fire is reason enough...


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fires provides a long list of cities that burned to the ground, a surprising number for them due to human negligence. So how is a mage losing control of a fire spell any worse than the 2 great fires of London, the great fire of Pittsburgh, Chicago, New York, etc etc...

It's amazing that people can still be trusted with devices that can make fire. Obviously because of the devestation that fire can cause we should lock away anyone who knows the secret of fire.....

Modifié par Warrior Craess, 10 octobre 2012 - 07:25 .

[Fallstar]

Vandicus wrote...
Mind control isn't similar to any of that, although I do favor limiting instruction in harmful spells, because there's really no point in teaching a mage how to kill someone unless they're going to be going around killing people. Focus in instruction for the average student should be healing and stuff to help with daily life or some form of business.


None of those spells can get a Knight-Commander, king, or Viscount to go to war. The entropy school can be cancelled by templar abilities since its regular magic. Blood magic can't, and mind control can be used on templars as well. A sufficiently powerful blood mage with knowledge of mind control spells could easily take over a tower without anyone realizing it.

Imagine a diplomatic meeting between two countries. A mage casts Waking nightmare on members of one party, causing them to slaughter the other party. (Waking nightmare: They are randomly stunned, attack other enemies, or become the caster's ally for the duration of the effect.) If the mage is not noticed, this would be seen as an act of hostility, and bingo, the two kingdoms are at war.

As for blood magic not being stopped by Templars, let's put it this way. Based on DAO and DA2, even under the supervision of the Templars - even under the extreme levels of 'supervision' the mages are subjected to in DA2 - many mages still manage to learn blood magic. If in the Gallows, which I hope is one of the most extreme circles, mages still managed to learn blood magic, then they are capable of learning it everywhere.

So if it is impossible to prevent the study of blood magic, the next logical step is to contain it and ensure no significant harm is caused by blood mages. But you said yourself - the Templars have no influence over a blood mage - they are just as helpless as an ordinary soldier. Clearly, they are not the right organization to be looking after mages, given the quantity of blood mages in the Ferelden and Kirkwall circles. You need people capable of dealing with blood magic to look after other blood mages, the existence of which DA2 showed us is inevitable.

And who is capable of dealing with rogue blood mages? Other mages. Mages need to police other mages, not lyrium addled, chantry endorsed Templars who - as you say yourself - are entirely incapable of dealing with one of the most dangerous types of mage.

[General User]

Warrior Craess wrote...

We are talking about the facts behind it. it boils down to the simple fact that magic is nothing more than a tool you are born with. it only corrupts if the society and environment around it allow for it to do so. Even Fenris allows for the fact that there are good Majestrates in Tevinter. A minority from his view point but they are bound to exist.

Protecting people from corruption is only a small part of what the Circle does.  The core thrust of their organization has always been public safety. 

Magic may indeed be a tool, but like many tools, it needs to be controlled, monitored, and regulated in the best interests of the general public.  The Cirlce is the best way to do just that.

The system of the circle will inevitably lead to rebellion. Repression of a people for no other reason than they are born differently will always lead to rebellion. Especially if they are individually more powerful that the repressors.

Both rebellion and repression can be seen as either good or bad depending on the circumstances.

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

If the ratio for trained killers to go on a berserk rampage was anywhere near the ratio of mages succumbing to demons, I would want trained killers under surveillance aswell.....

A trained killer's entire job description revolves around killing people. A mage can be the best doctor available. A trained killer usually only has skills to kill people.

Irrelevant to the point I was making. A mage can still be a healer if he is within the Circle.

Let's assume that mages are happy living in the circle. These mages become the best healers around.

But that then raises the question, where are the patients? The Circle System prevents these mages from leaving the tower except on special occasions like war (and even then, only a select few can leave, evidenced by Origins.)

The average citizen would have to go to an apothocary for some poultices or use herbs if they have the knowledge. The best healing would only be gained by those wealthy enough to go to the Circles, the people wealthy enough to pay the Circle to bring the mage to them, or the people who live in proximity to the Circle. And even then, the templars may have issue with that.

The Spirit Healers, possibly the best healers in the world of thedas, are one of the most closely watched by the templars, and are only tolerated because of the good they do (spirit healer spec description.)

So yes, we can have a great healer. But that healer wouldn't be of much use on the average day because of the Circle system itself. Anders lived free of the circle and used his magic to help people for free, and these refugees were more than willing to give their lives to protect him.

Why then, is the Circle so necessary that after the training period in controlling their powers, that mages must continue to live there when they could be using their powers to help people, serve their country, or do other such things?

It says in the codex that the healers of the Circle are in great demand, so obviously they get to ply their trade to the rest of Thedas.
And what on earth makes you think that a free mage healer, would heal the sick for free? The best medical care will always be reserved for the people with enough coin to pay for it. Unless you are Qunari...

[EmperorSahlertz]

Warrior Craess wrote...

no dumber than saying magic is any more inherently dangerous than anything else. 

Magic is a tool, nothing more. Some people make bomb, drugs, and kill people.. they don't need magic to be a terrible person. yet somehow you keep advocating that magic is somehow worse.  Alfred Noble invented dynamite from which many of explosives got their beginning,  A world changing invention and no magic involved. 

your just like those anti-gun fanatics.. blaming the fault on something that can't do anything on it's own, makes no decisions on it's own. Not to mention that both good deeds and evil deeds can be done with it. 

It's the people that are the problem. Not the tool.  Any other argument is lacking in logic and thought.   Guns, magic, chemicals, drugs, spears, bows and arrows, swords, rocks  etc don't kill..  it's the people using them that does. 

Are you kidding me? Are you trying to say that bombs aren't inherenty dangerous?....

Anyway, the funny thing about bombs guns and other weapons, are taht for them to cause harm, they usually have to be wielded by a person who intents harm. Magic on the other hand, can be wielded by a person intenting to do good, but something went wrong, and now he is eating your face. That is why magic is inherently a dangerous tool/weapon.

[Xilizhra]

DPSSOC wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

A mage, by their mere existence, endangers everyone around them. It sucks but those are the breaks. So do we let the public face that risk with no means of protecting themselves from malicious or accidental magical harm, or do we keep a small portion of the population confined for their protection?

An easy enough solution: have dangerous magic workings be restricted to specific areas, but allow mages more freedom of movement and use of non-dangerous magic elsewhere. We may forbid people from building pipe bombs in garages, but we don't make it illegal for people to have garages.

No such thing.  You are harnessing one of the fundamental forces of the universe and bending it to your will.  No matter what purpose you're putting it towards that is never not dangerous.

This is true, in the same sense that walking is always dangerous because at any point you might trip, fall, and break your skull open. In practical terms, if you're not in a thin-Veil area and not using explodey magic, the odds of any actual danger occurring from magic are statistically insignificant.

Magic may indeed be a tool, but like many tools, it needs to be
controlled, monitored, and regulated in the best interests of the
general public.  The Cirlce is the best way to do just that.

Under Chantry control, it's among the worst possible ways to do it. Though the qunari are worse, to be sure.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 10 octobre 2012 - 01:55 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

DuskWarden wrote...

Vandicus wrote...
Mind control isn't similar to any of that, although I do favor limiting instruction in harmful spells, because there's really no point in teaching a mage how to kill someone unless they're going to be going around killing people. Focus in instruction for the average student should be healing and stuff to help with daily life or some form of business.


None of those spells can get a Knight-Commander, king, or Viscount to go to war. The entropy school can be cancelled by templar abilities since its regular magic. Blood magic can't, and mind control can be used on templars as well. A sufficiently powerful blood mage with knowledge of mind control spells could easily take over a tower without anyone realizing it.

Imagine a diplomatic meeting between two countries. A mage casts Waking nightmare on members of one party, causing them to slaughter the other party. (Waking nightmare: They are randomly stunned, attack other enemies, or become the caster's ally for the duration of the effect.) If the mage is not noticed, this would be seen as an act of hostility, and bingo, the two kingdoms are at war.

As for blood magic not being stopped by Templars, let's put it this way. Based on DAO and DA2, even under the supervision of the Templars - even under the extreme levels of 'supervision' the mages are subjected to in DA2 - many mages still manage to learn blood magic. If in the Gallows, which I hope is one of the most extreme circles, mages still managed to learn blood magic, then they are capable of learning it everywhere.

So if it is impossible to prevent the study of blood magic, the next logical step is to contain it and ensure no significant harm is caused by blood mages. But you said yourself - the Templars have no influence over a blood mage - they are just as helpless as an ordinary soldier. Clearly, they are not the right organization to be looking after mages, given the quantity of blood mages in the Ferelden and Kirkwall circles. You need people capable of dealing with blood magic to look after other blood mages, the existence of which DA2 showed us is inevitable.

And who is capable of dealing with rogue blood mages? Other mages. Mages need to police other mages, not lyrium addled, chantry endorsed Templars who - as you say yourself - are entirely incapable of dealing with one of the most dangerous types of mage.

You don't think that SOMEONE at that meeting would notice the sudden mass hysteria? Waking nightmare is not exactly subtle, nor is it permanent.