2177 réponses à ce sujet

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

Magic may indeed be a tool, but like many tools, it needs to be controlled, monitored, and regulated in the best interests of the general public.  The Cirlce is the best way to do just that.

Under Chantry control, it's among the worst possible ways to do it. Though the qunari are worse, to be sure.

*shrug*  I don't see anyone else stepping up to the plate.

Modifié par General User, 10 octobre 2012 - 02:26 .

[Xilizhra]

General User wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Magic may indeed be a tool, but like many tools, it needs to be controlled, monitored, and regulated in the best interests of the general public.  The Cirlce is the best way to do just that.

Under Chantry control, it's among the worst possible ways to do it. Though the qunari are worse, to be sure.

*shrug*  I don't see anyone else stepping up to the plate.

That's because the Chantry wants to maintain its monopoly. The mages and some other group linked to them will be able to do the job well enough without Chantry interference, once the templars have been consigned to history's dust.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

General User wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Magic may indeed be a tool, but like many tools, it needs to be controlled, monitored, and regulated in the best interests of the general public.  The Cirlce is the best way to do just that.

Under Chantry control, it's among the worst possible ways to do it. Though the qunari are worse, to be sure.

*shrug*  I don't see anyone else stepping up to the plate.

That's because the Chantry wants to maintain its monopoly.

Of course they do.  Anyone in their place would too... and rightly so.  Maintaining a monopoly over magic largely the point of the Circle. 

The Chantry discourages others from honing in on the Circles in two main ways.  First by using traditional political and religious pressures.  And second, over the course of the last thousand years or so, by doing a fairly good job of maintaining and controlling mages and magic.  In other words, it's less a question of how no one could have set up their own Circles, but how no one would really have wanted to.

The mages and some other group linked to them will be able to do the job well enough without Chantry interference, once the templars have been consigned to history's dust.

Mages, like all other types of powerful and dangerous people, need to be supervised and controlled. 

And, you might want to be a little cautious before you go invoking the ol' "dustbin of history."  You never know who or what will end up there in the end.  Just ask Mr. Trotsky himself.

Modifié par General User, 10 octobre 2012 - 03:08 .

[Warrior Craess]

General User wrote...

Warrior Craess wrote...

We are talking about the facts behind it. it boils down to the simple fact that magic is nothing more than a tool you are born with. it only corrupts if the society and environment around it allow for it to do so. Even Fenris allows for the fact that there are good Majestrates in Tevinter. A minority from his view point but they are bound to exist.

Protecting people from corruption is only a small part of what the Circle does.  The core thrust of their organization has always been public safety. 

Magic may indeed be a tool, but like many tools, it needs to be controlled, monitored, and regulated in the best interests of the general public.  The Cirlce is the best way to do just that.

The system of the circle will inevitably lead to rebellion. Repression of a people for no other reason than they are born differently will always lead to rebellion. Especially if they are individually more powerful that the repressors.

Both rebellion and repression can be seen as either good or bad depending on the circumstances.

please show me a time when repression is a good thing.  Repression is a reaction to fear. Mages and magic should not be inherently feared. magic should be studied extensively so that what the rules of magic are well, and publicly known. It should also be used amongst the populance in benificial manners so that people no longer fear it. 

The Chantry has engaged in a rule by fear, as have the Templars, The Tevinter empire and a whole host of others. Fear is a great way to gain power, but it's a lousy way to rule people. 

Modifié par Warrior Craess, 10 octobre 2012 - 03:57 .

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

@Warrior Craess
This is not NWN. Magic wielders can easily be corrupted and create demons ... Their power should be feared and keep in check. Every responsible group should fear any outside power specially unnatural ones.

[Xilizhra]

The Chantry discourages others from honing in on the Circles in two main ways. First by using traditional political and religious pressures. And second, over the course of the last thousand years or so, by doing a fairly good job of maintaining and controlling mages and magic. In other words, it's less a question of how no one could have set up their own Circles, but how no one would really have wanted to.

Andrastian rules are content to let the current tyranny continue, and it's beyond anyone else's means. Although Alistair may be trying something now.

Mages, like all other types of powerful and dangerous people, need to be supervised and controlled.

But not by the Chantry, and not by an agency that has any purpose whatsoever other than ensuring mage/public safety. The templars have a religious agenda as well, and hold too much power over the mages. Whatever guardians replace them shouldn't have power over the mages per se, just the power to enforce the law/defend against demons.

[Warrior Craess]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Warrior Craess wrote...

no dumber than saying magic is any more inherently dangerous than anything else. 

Magic is a tool, nothing more. Some people make bomb, drugs, and kill people.. they don't need magic to be a terrible person. yet somehow you keep advocating that magic is somehow worse.  Alfred Noble invented dynamite from which many of explosives got their beginning,  A world changing invention and no magic involved. 

your just like those anti-gun fanatics.. blaming the fault on something that can't do anything on it's own, makes no decisions on it's own. Not to mention that both good deeds and evil deeds can be done with it. 

It's the people that are the problem. Not the tool.  Any other argument is lacking in logic and thought.   Guns, magic, chemicals, drugs, spears, bows and arrows, swords, rocks  etc don't kill..  it's the people using them that does. 

Are you kidding me? Are you trying to say that bombs aren't inherenty dangerous?....

Anyway, the funny thing about bombs guns and other weapons, are taht for them to cause harm, they usually have to be wielded by a person who intents harm. Magic on the other hand, can be wielded by a person intenting to do good, but something went wrong, and now he is eating your face. That is why magic is inherently a dangerous tool/weapon.

Absolutely i'm saying bomb are not dangerous, unless tampered with by a person. Same with a gun,  They require an active participation by a person to be dangerous. 

LOL a mage isn't going to be possessed by a demon when he's trying to cast a healing spell. Nothing in the game suggests or says that it occurs that way. 

reason for the  the right of annulment? The templars killed a mage practicing "forbidden" magic, this annoyed the other mages and they retaliated. Eventually they summoned a demon against the templars. This of course went terrible wrong, killing mages templars and dozens of innocent people. Chantry's answer.. the right of annulment. So it's perfectly ok for a templar to kill a mage in a fit of pique but heaven forbid the mages should seek justice for it. 

Templars, those stalwart souls picked to protect the populance against magic?  Not picked for their Moral fiber, but for their religious zeal and skill in battle.  Yes that is exactly the type of person who should be making life and death decisions about others. Who balances the Templars? Why no one really. Even a person as well respected as Elthina chose not to become involved.  Is it any wonder at all why the mages resent their situation, and seek out forbidden magics? 

The penalty for being an Apostate is death usually, or being made tranquil. The penatly for being a malificarum is death. The two are not the same, in fact a hedge mage who works to heal people, would be put to death as readily as the worst blood mage. 

The Circle system is fataly flawed, it requires fear and intolerance to exist. While Anders was very extreme in his action, the Circles deserve to be crushed and never ever rebuilt.  There are much better ways.  Ways the do not require Fear. 

[Warrior Craess]

Legatus Arianus wrote...

@Warrior Craess
This is not NWN. Magic wielders can easily be corrupted and create demons ... Their power should be feared and keep in check. Every responsible group should fear any outside power specially unnatural ones.

I never played NWN so I've no clue what your talking about. 

the problem with putting relgious fanatics in charge of governing mages is that it creates a very disfunctional environment for the mages. The become ruled by fear, their will (and they ability to resist the lure of demons) is severly damaged. 

Take the harrowing or become tranquil, made less than human fit for only the most boring and repetative of tasks. 
Fail the harrowing, and disappear, killed, turn into pigs and eaten or whatever. Only those the pass become mages.  Explain again why anyone would be happy and full of self confidence about being a mage?

If your born a mage but not sent into the circle (for whatever reason), and the outlook is worse, hunted and killed being the likely outcome.  Why not bargain with a demon for a better chance of survival? 

lastly no one should fear anything, You should be aware of it. You should take steps to counter it, but never fear it.  fear leds to the worst reactions in human history. Fear leads the masses to be gullible and blindly follow the worst leaders.. Fear is truly the mind killer. 

Modifié par Warrior Craess, 10 octobre 2012 - 04:05 .

[Warrior Craess]

General User wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

General User wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Magic may indeed be a tool, but like many tools, it needs to be controlled, monitored, and regulated in the best interests of the general public.  The Cirlce is the best way to do just that.

Under Chantry control, it's among the worst possible ways to do it. Though the qunari are worse, to be sure.

*shrug*  I don't see anyone else stepping up to the plate.

That's because the Chantry wants to maintain its monopoly.

Of course they do.  Anyone in their place would too... and rightly so.  Maintaining a monopoly over magic largely the point of the Circle. 

The Chantry discourages others from honing in on the Circles in two main ways.  First by using traditional political and religious pressures.  And second, over the course of the last thousand years or so, by doing a fairly good job of maintaining and controlling mages and magic.  In other words, it's less a question of how no one could have set up their own Circles, but how no one would really have wanted to.

The mages and some other group linked to them will be able to do the job well enough without Chantry interference, once the templars have been consigned to history's dust.

Mages, like all other types of powerful and dangerous people, need to be supervised and controlled. 

And, you might want to be a little cautious before you go invoking the ol' "dustbin of history."  You never know who or what will end up there in the end.  Just ask Mr. Trotsky himself.

The chantry discourages any alternatives to the circle by use of the templars killing all mages it can, and the threat of an exalted march. There in nothing noble in what they've accomplished. Which is to make the common people more afraid of magic, and mages more susceptible to demonic possession. 

[General User]

Warrior Craess wrote...

General User wrote...

Warrior Craess wrote...

We are talking about the facts behind it. it boils down to the simple fact that magic is nothing more than a tool you are born with. it only corrupts if the society and environment around it allow for it to do so. Even Fenris allows for the fact that there are good Majestrates in Tevinter. A minority from his view point but they are bound to exist.

Protecting people from corruption is only a small part of what the Circle does.  The core thrust of their organization has always been public safety.  

Magic may indeed be a tool, but like many tools, it needs to be controlled, monitored, and regulated in the best interests of the general public.  The Cirlce is the best way to do just that.
The system of the circle will inevitably lead to rebellion. Repression of a people for no other reason than they are born differently will always lead to rebellion. Especially if they are individually more powerful that the repressors.
Both rebellion and repression can be seen as either good or bad depending on the circumstances.

please show me a time when repression is a good thing.  Repression is a reaction to fear. Mages and magic should not be inherently feared. magic should be studied extensively so that what the rules of magic are well, and publicly known. It should also be used amongst the populance in benificial manners so that people no longer fear it.

The Chantry has engaged in a rule by fear, as have the Templars, The Tevinter empire and a whole host of others. Fear is a great way to gain power, but it's a lousy way to rule people.

Pick your favorite side of you favorite war, I guarantee that there was plenty of repression going on.  Or better yet, just use DPSSOC's example, the repression of not allowing private citizens to manufacture explosives in their apartments. 

Now, education is all well and good, but the real issue with magic is safety.  All the education in the world won't make a bit of difference if any particular mage can't (or refuses to) practice magic responsibly.  In order to make sure they do just that, mages need to be controlled, supervised and regulated.  With strict limits placed on the what's, where's, when's, why's, and how's of their use of magic.

And fear is a natural and healthy response to danger.  So "rule by fear" or not, the fact is that, when it comes to mages and magic in Thedas, there is a great deal for the general public to be justly afraid of.  

Xilizhra wrote...

Andrastian rules are content to let the current tyranny continue, and it's beyond anyone else's means. Although Alistair may be trying something now.

It's more than just the Andrastian rule[r]s (I think you mean).  The rulers were content.  The nobility were content.  The merchants were content.  The peasants were content.  Hell, for the lionshare of the past 1000 years or so, even the mages were content.  It was in Kirkwall that things really got pushed to a violent head, and even then only with the help of outside and supernatural forces.

But not by the Chantry, and not by an agency that has any purpose whatsoever other than ensuring mage/public safety. The templars have a religious agenda as well, and hold too much power over the mages. Whatever guardians replace them shouldn't have power over the mages per se, just the power to enforce the law/defend against demons.

The Templar Order was an autonomous order that was incorporated by the Chantry in order to police, protect, and protect others from, mages and magic.  When you describe "an agency that has [no] purpose whatsoever other than ensuring mage/public safety", you are describing the Templar Order.

It is impossible to effectively "enforce the law/defend against demons" without exercising a fairly large degree of power over mages.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Warrior Craess wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Warrior Craess wrote...

no dumber than saying magic is any more inherently dangerous than anything else. 

Magic is a tool, nothing more. Some people make bomb, drugs, and kill people.. they don't need magic to be a terrible person. yet somehow you keep advocating that magic is somehow worse.  Alfred Noble invented dynamite from which many of explosives got their beginning,  A world changing invention and no magic involved. 

your just like those anti-gun fanatics.. blaming the fault on something that can't do anything on it's own, makes no decisions on it's own. Not to mention that both good deeds and evil deeds can be done with it. 

It's the people that are the problem. Not the tool.  Any other argument is lacking in logic and thought.   Guns, magic, chemicals, drugs, spears, bows and arrows, swords, rocks  etc don't kill..  it's the people using them that does. 

Are you kidding me? Are you trying to say that bombs aren't inherenty dangerous?....

Anyway, the funny thing about bombs guns and other weapons, are taht for them to cause harm, they usually have to be wielded by a person who intents harm. Magic on the other hand, can be wielded by a person intenting to do good, but something went wrong, and now he is eating your face. That is why magic is inherently a dangerous tool/weapon.

Absolutely i'm saying bomb are not dangerous, unless tampered with by a person. Same with a gun,  They require an active participation by a person to be dangerous. 

LOL a mage isn't going to be possessed by a demon when he's trying to cast a healing spell. Nothing in the game suggests or says that it occurs that way. 

reason for the  the right of annulment? The templars killed a mage practicing "forbidden" magic, this annoyed the other mages and they retaliated. Eventually they summoned a demon against the templars. This of course went terrible wrong, killing mages templars and dozens of innocent people. Chantry's answer.. the right of annulment. So it's perfectly ok for a templar to kill a mage in a fit of pique but heaven forbid the mages should seek justice for it. 

Templars, those stalwart souls picked to protect the populance against magic?  Not picked for their Moral fiber, but for their religious zeal and skill in battle.  Yes that is exactly the type of person who should be making life and death decisions about others. Who balances the Templars? Why no one really. Even a person as well respected as Elthina chose not to become involved.  Is it any wonder at all why the mages resent their situation, and seek out forbidden magics? 

The penalty for being an Apostate is death usually, or being made tranquil. The penatly for being a malificarum is death. The two are not the same, in fact a hedge mage who works to heal people, would be put to death as readily as the worst blood mage. 

The Circle system is fataly flawed, it requires fear and intolerance to exist. While Anders was very extreme in his action, the Circles deserve to be crushed and never ever rebuilt.  There are much better ways.  Ways the do not require Fear. 

You obviously don't know how magic works in Dragon Age... Whenever a mage casts a spell, ANY spell, he has to tap into the Fade to power the spell. Whenver a mage does tap into the Fade, he is endangering himself to demon possession. And that is every single time he casts a spell. However, through the education of the Circle, every mage is taught how to minimize the risks they put themselves in whenever they cast a spell. So yes, even the healer mages are a risk to everyone around them...

The penalty for being an apostate is that you are brought to the Circle to become a Circle mage. THe penalty for being a maleficar is death. Granted, many apostates are maleficars, so I can see the reason for the confussion...

And no..... It is not okay for a Templar to kill a mage "just because"... I wonder why pro-mages always try to pull that one out.... No where at all does it say so in the lore. On the other hand, many times ahve we been shown that Templars are actually NOT allowed to harm the Circle mages. Again granted, it still happens, but that is the issue that has to be addressed, not the Circle itself.

[KainD]

DPSSOC wrote...
So do we let the public face that risk with no means of protecting themselves from malicious or accidental magical harm, or do we keep a small portion of the population confined for their protection?

What if I said that a public, every member of which wouldn't take that risk willingly, doesn't deserve safety? 

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You obviously don't know how magic works in Dragon Age... Whenever a mage casts a spell, ANY spell, he has to tap into the Fade to power the spell. Whenver a mage does tap into the Fade, he is endangering himself to demon possession. And that is every single time he casts a spell. However, through the education of the Circle, every mage is taught how to minimize the risks they put themselves in whenever they cast a spell. So yes, even the healer mages are a risk to everyone around them...

People aren't arguing that mages shouldn't be properly instructed in the use of their powers, they are arguing against placing mages into servitude to the Chantry - an anti-mage religious organization that preaches that magic is a "curse," vilifies mages and magic, and gives templars "dominion over mages by divine right."

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The penalty for being an apostate is that you are brought to the Circle to become a Circle mage. THe penalty for being a maleficar is death. Granted, many apostates are maleficars, so I can see the reason for the confussion...

Actually, you're brought back to the Circle if you run away from the Circle, and only then if it's permitted; Aenirin the Healer was nearly killed as a young boy because the templars ran him through with a sword, claiming that he was a maleficar (which seems to be factually inaccurate, given what Wynne says).

The situation with Bethany, for example, is unusual, not typical. Tranquility or death are usually the situations for mages who were always apostates.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And no..... It is not okay for a Templar to kill a mage "just because"... I wonder why pro-mages always try to pull that one out.... No where at all does it say so in the lore. On the other hand, many times ahve we been shown that Templars are actually NOT allowed to harm the Circle mages. Again granted, it still happens, but that is the issue that has to be addressed, not the Circle itself.

I think the issue of contention is that the relationship between mages and templars in the Chantry controlled Circles is not exactly ideal (for some of us).

[Warrior Craess]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Warrior Craess wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Warrior Craess wrote...

no dumber than saying magic is any more inherently dangerous than anything else. 

Magic is a tool, nothing more. Some people make bomb, drugs, and kill people.. they don't need magic to be a terrible person. yet somehow you keep advocating that magic is somehow worse.  Alfred Noble invented dynamite from which many of explosives got their beginning,  A world changing invention and no magic involved. 

your just like those anti-gun fanatics.. blaming the fault on something that can't do anything on it's own, makes no decisions on it's own. Not to mention that both good deeds and evil deeds can be done with it. 

It's the people that are the problem. Not the tool.  Any other argument is lacking in logic and thought.   Guns, magic, chemicals, drugs, spears, bows and arrows, swords, rocks  etc don't kill..  it's the people using them that does. 

Are you kidding me? Are you trying to say that bombs aren't inherenty dangerous?....

Anyway, the funny thing about bombs guns and other weapons, are taht for them to cause harm, they usually have to be wielded by a person who intents harm. Magic on the other hand, can be wielded by a person intenting to do good, but something went wrong, and now he is eating your face. That is why magic is inherently a dangerous tool/weapon.

Absolutely i'm saying bomb are not dangerous, unless tampered with by a person. Same with a gun,  They require an active participation by a person to be dangerous. 

LOL a mage isn't going to be possessed by a demon when he's trying to cast a healing spell. Nothing in the game suggests or says that it occurs that way. 

reason for the  the right of annulment? The templars killed a mage practicing "forbidden" magic, this annoyed the other mages and they retaliated. Eventually they summoned a demon against the templars. This of course went terrible wrong, killing mages templars and dozens of innocent people. Chantry's answer.. the right of annulment. So it's perfectly ok for a templar to kill a mage in a fit of pique but heaven forbid the mages should seek justice for it. 

Templars, those stalwart souls picked to protect the populance against magic?  Not picked for their Moral fiber, but for their religious zeal and skill in battle.  Yes that is exactly the type of person who should be making life and death decisions about others. Who balances the Templars? Why no one really. Even a person as well respected as Elthina chose not to become involved.  Is it any wonder at all why the mages resent their situation, and seek out forbidden magics? 

The penalty for being an Apostate is death usually, or being made tranquil. The penatly for being a malificarum is death. The two are not the same, in fact a hedge mage who works to heal people, would be put to death as readily as the worst blood mage. 

The Circle system is fataly flawed, it requires fear and intolerance to exist. While Anders was very extreme in his action, the Circles deserve to be crushed and never ever rebuilt.  There are much better ways.  Ways the do not require Fear. 

You obviously don't know how magic works in Dragon Age... Whenever a mage casts a spell, ANY spell, he has to tap into the Fade to power the spell. Whenver a mage does tap into the Fade, he is endangering himself to demon possession. And that is every single time he casts a spell. However, through the education of the Circle, every mage is taught how to minimize the risks they put themselves in whenever they cast a spell. So yes, even the healer mages are a risk to everyone around them...

The penalty for being an apostate is that you are brought to the Circle to become a Circle mage. THe penalty for being a maleficar is death. Granted, many apostates are maleficars, so I can see the reason for the confussion...

And no..... It is not okay for a Templar to kill a mage "just because"... I wonder why pro-mages always try to pull that one out.... No where at all does it say so in the lore. On the other hand, many times ahve we been shown that Templars are actually NOT allowed to harm the Circle mages. Again granted, it still happens, but that is the issue that has to be addressed, not the Circle itself.

I know enough to know that the mages connection to the fade is measured as mana. that at no time during spell casting are you actually in the fade, and therefor are NOT susceptible to being controlled by a demon.  Not to mention that the Harrowing, a test specifically designed to see if you will resist demonic possession, required a bargaining. In fact every time we play in game and there is a chance of demonic possession there is a bargain involved.  Even Connor made a bargain.  So no casting a spell will NOT turn a mage into an abomination. 

Yes the penalty for being an apostate is indeed death .
From the codex  http://dragonage.wik...ntry:_Apostates  please note towards the end that "justice" is almost always an execution. If for some reason the apostate must be kept alive, they are made tranquil.... So yes, the penalty for being apostate is death.  Please also note that not all apostates are malelicar, but the chantry has gone out of it's way to establish that they are indeed the same. 

How is it not ok for a templar to do whatever? All they have to do is claim they found them practicing "forbidden magic" for which the penalty is death, the mage resisted and was killed... Who is to gain say them?  Kirkwall is the ultimate fate of all templars. Who are chosen not because they are moral people, but for their religous zeal.  

When are we shown that Templars are not allowed to harm a mage?  The Warden? His/her salvation is due to Duncan intervention. Anders? Only saved becuase he's conscripted. other non party mages are only spared because you the hero speak up for them. Or you allow the head enchanter to persuade the Knight-commander.   however you said we are shown multiple times, so please enlighten me. 

[Warrior Craess]

General User wrote...

Warrior Craess wrote...

General User wrote...

Warrior Craess wrote...

We are talking about the facts behind it. it boils down to the simple fact that magic is nothing more than a tool you are born with. it only corrupts if the society and environment around it allow for it to do so. Even Fenris allows for the fact that there are good Majestrates in Tevinter. A minority from his view point but they are bound to exist.

Protecting people from corruption is only a small part of what the Circle does.  The core thrust of their organization has always been public safety.  

Magic may indeed be a tool, but like many tools, it needs to be controlled, monitored, and regulated in the best interests of the general public.  The Cirlce is the best way to do just that.
The system of the circle will inevitably lead to rebellion. Repression of a people for no other reason than they are born differently will always lead to rebellion. Especially if they are individually more powerful that the repressors.
Both rebellion and repression can be seen as either good or bad depending on the circumstances.

please show me a time when repression is a good thing.  Repression is a reaction to fear. Mages and magic should not be inherently feared. magic should be studied extensively so that what the rules of magic are well, and publicly known. It should also be used amongst the populance in benificial manners so that people no longer fear it.

The Chantry has engaged in a rule by fear, as have the Templars, The Tevinter empire and a whole host of others. Fear is a great way to gain power, but it's a lousy way to rule people.

Pick your favorite side of you favorite war, I guarantee that there was plenty of repression going on.  Or better yet, just use DPSSOC's example, the repression of not allowing private citizens to manufacture explosives in their apartments. 

Now, education is all well and good, but the real issue with magic is safety.  All the education in the world won't make a bit of difference if any particular mage can't (or refuses to) practice magic responsibly.  In order to make sure they do just that, mages need to be controlled, supervised and regulated.  With strict limits placed on the what's, where's, when's, why's, and how's of their use of magic.

And fear is a natural and healthy response to danger.  So "rule by fear" or not, the fact is that, when it comes to mages and magic in Thedas, there is a great deal for the general public to be justly afraid of.  

Xilizhra wrote...

Andrastian rules are content to let the current tyranny continue, and it's beyond anyone else's means. Although Alistair may be trying something now.

It's more than just the Andrastian rule[r]s (I think you mean).  The rulers were content.  The nobility were content.  The merchants were content.  The peasants were content.  Hell, for the lionshare of the past 1000 years or so, even the mages were content.  It was in Kirkwall that things really got pushed to a violent head, and even then only with the help of outside and supernatural forces.

But not by the Chantry, and not by an agency that has any purpose whatsoever other than ensuring mage/public safety. The templars have a religious agenda as well, and hold too much power over the mages. Whatever guardians replace them shouldn't have power over the mages per se, just the power to enforce the law/defend against demons.

The Templar Order was an autonomous order that was incorporated by the Chantry in order to police, protect, and protect others from, mages and magic.  When you describe "an agency that has [no] purpose whatsoever other than ensuring mage/public safety", you are describing the Templar Order.

It is impossible to effectively "enforce the law/defend against demons" without exercising a fairly large degree of power over mages.

there is very little to fear. Magic is a tool it can be used for good and freguantly is, but the public is almost never allowed to see that side of it. The public is force fed horror stories and abominations, so they have no choice but to fear mages. It's not a good fear, as in we must be careful around this animal or it could hurt us... it's blind terror where they run off to fetch the lynch mob. 

it's impossible.. and how do we know this? What research has been done about this? The Warden free's Conner from possession, prevents Kitty from possessing a little girl, Hawke saves the dreamer from being possessed.. So obviously the assertation that we can not prevent it is false. We can't prevent it becuase it doesn't serve the chantry and templars needs to do anything other than kill them.  Templars should be more like the warders of the whell of time series. They should be both companion and protectors of mages. Not jailer, and exectutioner. 

funny thing is I rarely even play mages. I really think they are too easy. Yet I side with them every single time.  becuase the chantry and templars are full of #$%. And I detest any thing whose only claim to power is fear. 

17 annulments in 700 years speaks loudly against the mages being content. so roughly one annulment every couple of generations... 

Modifié par Warrior Craess, 10 octobre 2012 - 06:46 .

[General User]

Warrior Craess wrote...

General User wrote...

Warrior Craess wrote...

General User wrote...

Warrior Craess wrote...

We are talking about the facts behind it. it boils down to the simple fact that magic is nothing more than a tool you are born with. it only corrupts if the society and environment around it allow for it to do so. Even Fenris allows for the fact that there are good Majestrates in Tevinter. A minority from his view point but they are bound to exist.

Protecting people from corruption is only a small part of what the Circle does.  The core thrust of their organization has always been public safety.  

Magic may indeed be a tool, but like many tools, it needs to be controlled, monitored, and regulated in the best interests of the general public.  The Cirlce is the best way to do just that.
The system of the circle will inevitably lead to rebellion. Repression of a people for no other reason than they are born differently will always lead to rebellion. Especially if they are individually more powerful that the repressors.
Both rebellion and repression can be seen as either good or bad depending on the circumstances.

please show me a time when repression is a good thing.  Repression is a reaction to fear. Mages and magic should not be inherently feared. magic should be studied extensively so that what the rules of magic are well, and publicly known. It should also be used amongst the populance in benificial manners so that people no longer fear it.

The Chantry has engaged in a rule by fear, as have the Templars, The Tevinter empire and a whole host of others. Fear is a great way to gain power, but it's a lousy way to rule people.

Pick your favorite side of you favorite war, I guarantee that there was plenty of repression going on.  Or better yet, just use DPSSOC's example, the repression of not allowing private citizens to manufacture explosives in their apartments. 

Now, education is all well and good, but the real issue with magic is safety.  All the education in the world won't make a bit of difference if any particular mage can't (or refuses to) practice magic responsibly.  In order to make sure they do just that, mages need to be controlled, supervised and regulated.  With strict limits placed on the what's, where's, when's, why's, and how's of their use of magic.

And fear is a natural and healthy response to danger.  So "rule by fear" or not, the fact is that, when it comes to mages and magic in Thedas, there is a great deal for the general public to be justly afraid of.  

Xilizhra wrote...

Andrastian rules are content to let the current tyranny continue, and it's beyond anyone else's means. Although Alistair may be trying something now.

It's more than just the Andrastian rule[r]s (I think you mean).  The rulers were content.  The nobility were content.  The merchants were content.  The peasants were content.  Hell, for the lionshare of the past 1000 years or so, even the mages were content.  It was in Kirkwall that things really got pushed to a violent head, and even then only with the help of outside and supernatural forces.

But not by the Chantry, and not by an agency that has any purpose whatsoever other than ensuring mage/public safety. The templars have a religious agenda as well, and hold too much power over the mages. Whatever guardians replace them shouldn't have power over the mages per se, just the power to enforce the law/defend against demons.

The Templar Order was an autonomous order that was incorporated by the Chantry in order to police, protect, and protect others from, mages and magic.  When you describe "an agency that has [no] purpose whatsoever other than ensuring mage/public safety", you are describing the Templar Order.

It is impossible to effectively "enforce the law/defend against demons" without exercising a fairly large degree of power over mages.

there is very little to fear. Magic is a tool it can be used for good and freguantly is, but the public is almost never allowed to see that side of it. The public is force fed horror stories and abominations, so they have no choice but to fear mages. It's not a good fear, as in we must be careful around this animal or it could hurt us... it's blind terror where they run off to fetch the lynch mob. 

it's impossible.. and how do we know this? What research has been done about this? The Warden free's Conner from possession, prevents Kitty from possessing a little girl, Hawke saves the dreamer from being possessed.. So obviously the assertation that we can not prevent it is false. We can't prevent it becuase it doesn't serve the chantry and templars needs to do anything other than kill them.  Templars should be more like the warders of the whell of time series. They should be both companion and protectors of mages. Not jailer, and exectutioner. 

funny thing is I rarely even play mages. I really think they are too easy. Yet I side with them every single time.  becuase the chantry and templars are full of #$%. And I detest any thing whose only claim to power is fear. 

17 annulments in 700 years speaks loudly against the mages being content. so roughly one annulment every couple of generations... 

Of course there's a good side to magic.  But whether it's abominations, mind control, or even just the faults, failings and foibles of being human magnified to the Nth degree by the ability to control the fundamental forces of nature, all these things are very real in Thedas, and the public has a right to be protected from them.

The Chantry, in particular the current Divine, would agree that a goodly part of the Templar Order's mission is the protection and education of mages.  To those ends, the Templar Order had as long standing policy and directives that went to great lengths to prevent unnecessary loss of life, mages included, and the Circles emphasized training of mages as one of their primary functions.  So, yes they did a great deal "other than kill them."

Now, I'm not sure if you're familiar, but the Rite of Annulment is not invoked whenever the mages start getting a bit uppity, but rather when a Circle has become so lost of blood magic or demonic influence that there is simply no way it could be put back together.

[DKJaigen]

Rose colored glasses at its finest General user. You describe what the chantry and templars should be but are simply not. Both groups are tainted by politics. We only have information of 3 annulments. 2 of them where because of politics and not because of corruption. And i dont doubt for a moment that should a mage find a way to prevent possesion he will be killed by the chantry.

The chantry is all about keeping control and power and not about protection as you wish to believe. This would be intolerable in a normal situation but in this world humans are an endangerd species with only magic protecting them. In short supporting the templars is suicidal.

[General User]

DKJaigen wrote...

Rose colored glasses at its finest General user. You describe what the chantry and templars should be but are simply not. Both groups are tainted by politics. We only have information of 3 annulments. 2 of them where because of politics and not because of corruption. And i dont doubt for a moment that should a mage find a way to prevent possesion he will be killed by the chantry.

The chantry is all about keeping control and power and not about protection as you wish to believe. This would be intolerable in a normal situation but in this world humans are an endangerd species with only magic protecting them. In short supporting the templars is suicidal.

I was going to respond to your post.  But after reading the bolded bit, I really don't think you understand my position.

If there was any particular point or points that threw you, I'd consider clarifying. 

Modifié par General User, 10 octobre 2012 - 08:58 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Warrior Craess wrote...
I know enough to know that the mages connection to the fade is measured as mana. that at no time during spell casting are you actually in the fade, and therefor are NOT susceptible to being controlled by a demon.  Not to mention that the Harrowing, a test specifically designed to see if you will resist demonic possession, required a bargaining. In fact every time we play in game and there is a chance of demonic possession there is a bargain involved.  Even Connor made a bargain.  So no casting a spell will NOT turn a mage into an abomination. 

Yes the penalty for being an apostate is indeed death .
From the codex  http://dragonage.wik...ntry:_Apostates  please note towards the end that "justice" is almost always an execution. If for some reason the apostate must be kept alive, they are made tranquil.... So yes, the penalty for being apostate is death.  Please also note that not all apostates are malelicar, but the chantry has gone out of it's way to establish that they are indeed the same. 

How is it not ok for a templar to do whatever? All they have to do is claim they found them practicing "forbidden magic" for which the penalty is death, the mage resisted and was killed... Who is to gain say them?  Kirkwall is the ultimate fate of all templars. Who are chosen not because they are moral people, but for their religous zeal.  

When are we shown that Templars are not allowed to harm a mage?  The Warden? His/her salvation is due to Duncan intervention. Anders? Only saved becuase he's conscripted. other non party mages are only spared because you the hero speak up for them. Or you allow the head enchanter to persuade the Knight-commander.   however you said we are shown multiple times, so please enlighten me. 

Mana has nothing to do with the spellcasting itself, or the mages affinity to the Fade.  Mana should be seen as a magic "muscle". It only determins how much and for how long a mage can continue in magical acts. And yes, every time a mage cast a spell, he connects with the Fade.
And the Harrowing is not a vaccine. It is merely a test, to see if you have what it takes to overcome temptation. Furthermore there are two types of possession. The forceful and the agreed. A mage most likely mostly endagner hismelf to a forceful possession whenver he cast a spell, but that is nota  good thing, since those completely destory the mage's mind.

The reason that most apostates are executed, is because many apostates are also branded maleficar. Furthermore it is written by an obviously anti-chantry First Enchanter. We have several examples in-game of apostates being merely captured and rehabilitated within the Circle. So obviously what he claims isn't the entire truth.

Anders mentions that it is against Chantry law to Tranquilize a harrowed mage. Nad we've had several older discussion on this forum where it was adressed that Templars weren't allowed to do as they pleased with mages.

[General User]

Anders escaped from the Circle of Ferelden and was recaptured what, some seven times prior to joining the Grey Wardens? If the Templar Order made a blanket policy of executing all, or even most, apostates then Anders should have been dead long before he made it to Amaranthine.

At the very least it would seem that Templar officers have broad authority to decide how to deal with an apostate mage and, in Anders' case at least, they were extraordinarily lenient.  Look what it got them.

Modifié par General User, 10 octobre 2012 - 09:15 .

[BlueMagitek]

Warrior Craess wrote...

there is very little to fear. Magic is a tool it can be used for good and freguantly is, but the public is almost never allowed to see that side of it. The public is force fed horror stories and abominations, so they have no choice but to fear mages. It's not a good fear, as in we must be careful around this animal or it could hurt us... it's blind terror where they run off to fetch the lynch mob. 

it's impossible.. and how do we know this? What research has been done about this? The Warden free's Conner from possession, prevents Kitty from possessing a little girl, Hawke saves the dreamer from being possessed.. So obviously the assertation that we can not prevent it is false. We can't prevent it becuase it doesn't serve the chantry and templars needs to do anything other than kill them.  Templars should be more like the warders of the whell of time series. They should be both companion and protectors of mages. Not jailer, and exectutioner. 

funny thing is I rarely even play mages. I really think they are too easy. Yet I side with them every single time.  becuase the chantry and templars are full of #$%. And I detest any thing whose only claim to power is fear. 

17 annulments in 700 years speaks loudly against the mages being content. so roughly one annulment every couple of generations... 

*looks at the people slaughtered and mutilated at Redcliffe due to Connor*

Um, yeah, no, there's quite a lot to fear.  Magic is dangerous.

But once again, this topic is meant to be about blood magic.

[dragonflight288]

General User wrote...

Anders escaped from the Circle of Ferelden and was recaptured what, some seven times prior to joining the Grey Wardens? If the Templar Order made a blanket policy of executing all, or even most, apostates then Anders should have been dead long before he made it to Amaranthine.

At the very least it would seem that Templar officers have broad authority to decide how to deal with an apostate mage and, in Anders' case at least, they were extraordinarily lenient.  Look what it got them.

It's Chantry policy to bring back all apprentices alive. Any mage who passed their harrowing is killed.

But that didn't stop them from running through Aneirin. Whether that was an overzealous templar or a templar who had a thing against elves, I don't know, but Aneirin SHOULD'VE been brought back alive.

The templars are supposed to obey the law of the land and respect the rule of the kings and queens. But the templar in Awakening completely ignores the Warden's rights to conscript anyone from king to criminal, ignores the word of King Alistair (or Queen Anora) and tries to arrest Anders anyway, saying her authority as a templar supercedes the authority of the crown. If that were true, I have to ask why she had to keep the whole operation secret if it was legal for her to do that.

We know from the situation with Jowan in the mage origin story that in order for any mage to be made tranquil, you need the authorization from both the First Enchanter AND the Knight-Commander. But in Kirkwall, there were illegal tranquilizations going on for years. Any time the mages rose up to criticize Meredith, they were punished, put into isolation, and probably raped by her subordinates. The evidence that supports punishment merely for disagreeing with Meredith is Meredith and Orsino at the very beginning of Act 3 during their debate. Meredith wanted to punish Orsino and make an example of him. He wasn't even calling for an end to templar control or even templar practices in general. He was talking about the legality of Meredith's claim to be the stand-in Viscount, preventing the city's nobility from choosing a new Viscount and the very obvious statement that she saw threats everywhere, and wouldn't trust anyone to take care of them...often creating the threats she saw because people grew desperate under her rule.

Lambert committed illegal action by going against the Divine and ordering the First Enchanters to return to their towers, disregarded what the Divine said, and did his level best to keep the mages from having a legal assembly. They had permission from the Divine to be there. They had been given authority to investigate Rhys. Lambert ordered the attack on the mages gathered there.

I will grant that Lambert had reasons to be suspicious of Rhys. And Fiona wasn't making things easier on them by electing to try and get a vote to remove the Circles from the Chantry. BUT, not a single vote was made at the time Lambert ordered the attack. The mages DID have permission to be there, and they did have the authority to investigate Rhys.

I know Lambert isn't a templar, but is a seeker, the Lord High Seeker to be exact, but quite frankly, his job description is to lookout for corrupt templars. He's supposed to investigate the templars. But he was too busy trying to be a templar that he wasn't doing his actual job.

There are good templars sure enough. Ser Bryant, Ser Otto, Ser Thrask, and Gregoire are all wondeful examples on how templars should act. But there are more than enough examples throughout the games, mentioned throughout all of thedas in codexes and the novels themselves, that it's simply a fact that the templar order and the chantry have grown corrupt and blatantly abuse their power, and are not held accountable for it.

I know Alrik is a horse constantly ridden to showcase templar corruption, but he would not have been stopped by anyone had Hawke and Anders not showed up. He would still be illegally tranquilizing and raping mages, and there was no sign whatsoever that Meredith was doing anything about it. Either she approved or she was incompetent. Ser Kerras is mentioned going into Alain's room at night and threatening Alain not to mention it. Thrask says Kerras doesn't even look for peaceful solutions. He just enjoys killing mages.

Why then, should I trust the templars to police the mages if they aren't even capable of policing themselves?

[Bigdoser]

Don't forget the chantry feeding lyrium to templars its the reason why I never let carver become one.

[Warrior Craess]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Warrior Craess wrote...
I know enough to know that the mages connection to the fade is measured as mana. that at no time during spell casting are you actually in the fade, and therefor are NOT susceptible to being controlled by a demon.  Not to mention that the Harrowing, a test specifically designed to see if you will resist demonic possession, required a bargaining. In fact every time we play in game and there is a chance of demonic possession there is a bargain involved.  Even Connor made a bargain.  So no casting a spell will NOT turn a mage into an abomination. 

Yes the penalty for being an apostate is indeed death .
From the codex  http://dragonage.wik...ntry:_Apostates  please note towards the end that "justice" is almost always an execution. If for some reason the apostate must be kept alive, they are made tranquil.... So yes, the penalty for being apostate is death.  Please also note that not all apostates are malelicar, but the chantry has gone out of it's way to establish that they are indeed the same. 

How is it not ok for a templar to do whatever? All they have to do is claim they found them practicing "forbidden magic" for which the penalty is death, the mage resisted and was killed... Who is to gain say them?  Kirkwall is the ultimate fate of all templars. Who are chosen not because they are moral people, but for their religous zeal.  

When are we shown that Templars are not allowed to harm a mage?  The Warden? His/her salvation is due to Duncan intervention. Anders? Only saved becuase he's conscripted. other non party mages are only spared because you the hero speak up for them. Or you allow the head enchanter to persuade the Knight-commander.   however you said we are shown multiple times, so please enlighten me. 

Mana has nothing to do with the spellcasting itself, or the mages affinity to the Fade.  Mana should be seen as a magic "muscle". It only determins how much and for how long a mage can continue in magical acts. And yes, every time a mage cast a spell, he connects with the Fade.
And the Harrowing is not a vaccine. It is merely a test, to see if you have what it takes to overcome temptation. Furthermore there are two types of possession. The forceful and the agreed. A mage most likely mostly endagner hismelf to a forceful possession whenver he cast a spell, but that is nota  good thing, since those completely destory the mage's mind.

The reason that most apostates are executed, is because many apostates are also branded maleficar. Furthermore it is written by an obviously anti-chantry First Enchanter. We have several examples in-game of apostates being merely captured and rehabilitated within the Circle. So obviously what he claims isn't the entire truth.

Anders mentions that it is against Chantry law to Tranquilize a harrowed mage. Nad we've had several older discussion on this forum where it was adressed that Templars weren't allowed to do as they pleased with mages.

He taps into the fade, not he's transported there so that he can make a bargain.  Mana is exactly what I described it as. http://dragonage.wik...he_Use_of_Magic  Yes mana is what powers spells, it is drawn from the fade... And nothing in this speaks about casting spells allowing deominc possession.
We've seen no indications that simply casting a spell allows demonic access. not a single one. We've seen massive amount of aboninations, by apostatet mages, but never what caused the demonic possession itself.  
According to the DA2 lore, abominations can attempt to force possession if it enoucters a mage. since spell casting does not require an active presence in the fade it's pretty hard for a demon to beat down a mage mid spell.  http://dragonage.wik...ry:_Abomination 

The reason that most apostates are executed is becuase thats the way the chantry and the templars want it. The chanrty has spent centuries establishing the fact that apostates = maleficar. This isn't by accident. If your not an escaped circle mage (who don't stay escaped long due to the phalactery) then your most likely result of being brought to the templars attention is death. Unless Flemith is your mother... 

LOL the lore cant be trusted becuase it doesn't suit your purposes? Really?  

Yet chantry law didn't stop the templars of kirkwall from making mages tranquil at all did it? And why were they making them tranquil? So they could rape them with out fear of report?  The templars are NOT moral people. They are religous fanactics who are skilled fighters.  

[Warrior Craess]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Warrior Craess wrote...

there is very little to fear. Magic is a tool it can be used for good and freguantly is, but the public is almost never allowed to see that side of it. The public is force fed horror stories and abominations, so they have no choice but to fear mages. It's not a good fear, as in we must be careful around this animal or it could hurt us... it's blind terror where they run off to fetch the lynch mob. 

it's impossible.. and how do we know this? What research has been done about this? The Warden free's Conner from possession, prevents Kitty from possessing a little girl, Hawke saves the dreamer from being possessed.. So obviously the assertation that we can not prevent it is false. We can't prevent it becuase it doesn't serve the chantry and templars needs to do anything other than kill them.  Templars should be more like the warders of the whell of time series. They should be both companion and protectors of mages. Not jailer, and exectutioner. 

funny thing is I rarely even play mages. I really think they are too easy. Yet I side with them every single time.  becuase the chantry and templars are full of #$%. And I detest any thing whose only claim to power is fear. 

17 annulments in 700 years speaks loudly against the mages being content. so roughly one annulment every couple of generations... 

*looks at the people slaughtered and mutilated at Redcliffe due to Connor*

Um, yeah, no, there's quite a lot to fear.  Magic is dangerous.

But once again, this topic is meant to be about blood magic.

magic is dangerous when in the hands of the untrained. Just as a gun is dangerous when in the hands of the untrained, Chemistry is dangerous when done by the untrained.. Notice the common factor there. 

Yes what happened in Redcliff was very bad. Redcliff was not the result of a simple child playing with forces it doesn't understand. There was sooo much more involved in that. What happened in Redcliff was a result of the cultural fear that the average person has about magic/mages, the loss of familial connections for mages sent to the circle (hence the loss of a child that was so feared by Arlessa Isolde), the lack of a qualified teacher who could have made Connor more adept at resisting demons. And let us not forget that Logain had Connor's dad poisoned...  

Magic is only bad in the hands of the untrained, and fearful, and Connor was sadly both. Untrained becuase his teacher was never more than an apprentice, and fearful because his dad was apparently poisoned to death by his teacher.  All of that could have been avoided if the Chantry actually showed compassion towards mages. Rather than twist the chant of light to suit it's own ends.