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[Warrior Craess]

General User wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Rose colored glasses at its finest General user. You describe what the chantry and templars should be but are simply not. Both groups are tainted by politics. We only have information of 3 annulments. 2 of them where because of politics and not because of corruption. And i dont doubt for a moment that should a mage find a way to prevent possesion he will be killed by the chantry.

The chantry is all about keeping control and power and not about protection as you wish to believe. This would be intolerable in a normal situation but in this world humans are an endangerd species with only magic protecting them. In short supporting the templars is suicidal.

I was going to respond to your post.  But after reading the bolded bit, I really don't think you understand my position.

If there was any particular point or points that threw you, I'd consider clarifying. 

yes, in the beginning the chantry treated mages sooo well...  Light fires, and dust the place... ohh and if you stage a peaceful protest, I'm going to call and exalted march on you.  That the Devine didn't spoke more to the fact that there were some very moral people high in the chain of command. At the time.  However that has changed sooo much. What we see at the time of gameplay is a vastly different thing.  both sides have fractured under the pressure of centruies and gone towards the extremes instead of being moderate.  Mages increasingly turn to blood magic and demons becuase their lot in life is worse than the cities in many ways.  If a city elf is found by a templar it's not likely to be summorarily killed for existing.  Templars on the other hand have recruited people based on religous peity, not morality.  So a religion that is intolerant of magic recruits religous zealots as the force used to govern mages....  How can you ever see that as ending well? 

[DPSSOC]

KainD wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
So do we let the public face that risk with no means of protecting themselves from malicious or accidental magical harm, or do we keep a small portion of the population confined for their protection?

What if I said that a public, every member of which wouldn't take that risk willingly, doesn't deserve safety? 

I'd say you'd make a terrible bungee jumping instructor.

"You wanna bungee jump?"
"Nah it's too dangerous."
"Well then you don't get a chord and I'm pushing you off anyway.  Good luck."

[BlueMagitek]

Warrior Craess wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...
*looks at the people slaughtered and mutilated at Redcliffe due to Connor*

Um, yeah, no, there's quite a lot to fear.  Magic is dangerous.

But once again, this topic is meant to be about blood magic.

magic is dangerous when in the hands of the untrained. Just as a gun is dangerous when in the hands of the untrained, Chemistry is dangerous when done by the untrained.. Notice the common factor there. 

Yes what happened in Redcliff was very bad. Redcliff was not the result of a simple child playing with forces it doesn't understand. There was sooo much more involved in that. What happened in Redcliff was a result of the cultural fear that the average person has about magic/mages, the loss of familial connections for mages sent to the circle (hence the loss of a child that was so feared by Arlessa Isolde), the lack of a qualified teacher who could have made Connor more adept at resisting demons. And let us not forget that Logain had Connor's dad poisoned...  

Magic is only bad in the hands of the untrained, and fearful, and Connor was sadly both. Untrained becuase his teacher was never more than an apprentice, and fearful because his dad was apparently poisoned to death by his teacher.  All of that could have been avoided if the Chantry actually showed compassion towards mages. Rather than twist the chant of light to suit it's own ends.

Magic is dangerous period.  Look at Uldred.  He was well trained; one of the top Enchanters.  And once again you're trying to compare guns, something that typically requires a license to procure that can be more or less easily removed from a person, to a power that's almost impossible to remove in a humane manner and impossible to turn off.

Very, very bad.  And it was about 80% due to Connor.  You can blame Isolde and Jowan and Loghain all you want.  It was Connor who went through Jowan's books and landed himself there.  Not for greed or any typical evil motivation, but for wanting to help his dad.  And everyone in at least a 20 mile area suffered for it.  An untrained magic user did all of that damage, by accident. 

No, it has everything to do with Connor making a deal with a demon.  It was his choice.

[General User]

dragonflight288 wrote...

*snip*

Why then, should I trust the templars to police the mages if they aren't even capable of policing themselves?

The short answer is: you shouldn't. 

Honestly.  I think that the real problem with the Templar Order, especially in Kirkwall, was a lack of oversight.  Power is, in alot of ways, a "use it or lose it" proposition.  The Chantry found that out the hard way when, after the clerical hierarchy of the Chantry let Templar Order have far too much of a free hand for far too long, the Templars rebelled.

But of course, that's just outlining why the Circles and the Order failed, not a reason why either are a bad idea in the first place.

Actually (if you have a taste for irony), you could even say that the Templar Order's failure to sucessfully police themselves is "Exhibit A" in making the case for why the mages should, under no circumstances, be allowed any remotely similar leeway.

Modifié par General User, 11 octobre 2012 - 02:04 .

[KainD]

DPSSOC wrote...

I'd say you'd make a terrible bungee jumping instructor.

"You wanna bungee jump?"
"Nah it's too dangerous."
"Well then you don't get a chord and I'm pushing you off anyway.  Good luck."

That's funny. 

But I guess that is what should be done if that bungee jump is tied to another persons freedom and human rights somehow for the full allegory. If you would deny another person freedom and right just because you are too selfish and cowardly to make a leap.

Modifié par KainD, 11 octobre 2012 - 01:26 .

[DPSSOC]

KainD wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

I'd say you'd make a terrible bungee jumping instructor.

"You wanna bungee jump?"
"Nah it's too dangerous."
"Well then you don't get a chord and I'm pushing you off anyway.  Good luck."

That's funny. 

But I guess that is what should be done if that bungee jump is tied to another persons freedom and human rights somehow for the full allegory. If you would deny another person freedom and right just because you are too selfish and cowardly to make a leap.

And how do you balance that out?  What makes a mage's freedom and safety so much more valuable than a normal person?  That's the trade off, sacrificing the freedoms of the few to protect the many, and we do it every day.  I can't own various products and I can't perform various acts because they put other people's lives at risk without their consideration, consultation, or consent.  I don't have the right to impose that kind of risk on people.

As a society we accept certain risks as the cost of interacting with one another, we accept certain risks as the cost of technological progress, but these are risks that we, through public discourse, have accepted and that any of us can seek to oppose.  We are bound by a social contract that demands sacrifices from all of us and imposes punishments on those who refuse to conform.

Thedas as a society has come to that agreement, the people alllow the practice and research of magic, and in turn the mages remain isolated.  Without the Circle there is no way to guarantee adequate protection to the general populace from the dangers of magic because there is no way to predict when and where a problem (by accident or design) will occur, and whatever police or containment force you conceive can't be everywhere.  To demand the people sacrifice their only means of protection from magic, and offering them nothing as alternative or compensation, is unreasonable and it's unfair.

Modifié par DPSSOC, 11 octobre 2012 - 02:28 .

[KainD]

@DPSSOC

it's unfair to begin with. See mages were just born that way, they didn't do anything to become mages, it wasn't a choice.

I think a good society should go through rough things together. I personally would take the risk of being hurt by a mage, for that mage to have complete freedom and rights just like me, if we are living in the same society, I don't have the right to lock him/her up for what he/she is. The mage did nothing to deserve it, it just happened.

1) If the mage says: hey buddy, thanks, I appreciate my freedom but I don't want to hurt anyone by accident, so I will lock myself in a tower. That would be HIS/HER choice, and only the mage can do that choice, not me for them.

2) The trade off is that mages can use their magic for the good of the society too on a daily life basis if again they choose to.

3) If the mage is being an a*s and is abusing the magic, and is committing crimes then and only THEN can we lock them up for their bad behavior like any other criminal. Not before they have done anything wrong, only AFTER.

4) If a random abomination blows up a district or something, it should be treated like a plane crash. Crap happens, there is no one to blame for it but nature that made people into mages. It doesn't mean however that they should have less freedom. I believe that such tragedies would not be that common, mages would still have to train to control themselves and their powers.

[Auintus]

Templars are supposed to serve as police for the mages, not jail wardens. That's what they amount to: guarding a prisoner whose only crime was being born with abilities others lack.
Find a mage that's terrorizing people with his powers? Capture, kill, or tranquilize them. Find a mage that's minding his own goddamn buisness, maybe protecting family and friends? Leave him alone. The system would treat good mages fairly while still dealing with the threat of evil mages.

[berelinde]

KainD wrote...

@DPSSOC

it's unfair to begin with. See mages were just born that way, they didn't do anything to become mages, it wasn't a choice.

I think a good society should go through rough things together. I personally would take the risk of being hurt by a mage, for that mage to have complete freedom and rights just like me, if we are living in the same society, I don't have the right to lock him/her up for what he/she is. The mage did nothing to deserve it, it just happened.

1) If the mage says: hey buddy, thanks, I appreciate my freedom but I don't want to hurt anyone by accident, so I will lock myself in a tower. That would be HIS/HER choice, and only the mage can do that choice, not me for them.

2) The trade off is that mages can use their magic for the good of the society too on a daily life basis if again they choose to.

3) If the mage is being an a*s and is abusing the magic, and is committing crimes then and only THEN can we lock them up for their bad behavior like any other criminal. Not before they have done anything wrong, only AFTER.

4) If a random abomination blows up a district or something, it should be treated like a plane crash. Crap happens, there is no one to blame for it but nature that made people into mages. It doesn't mean however that they should have less freedom. I believe that such tragedies would not be that common, mages would still have to train to control themselves and their powers.

QFT

People fear what they do not understand. The solution is not to purge the world of everything that falls into that category.

[DPSSOC]

KainD wrote...
@DPSSOC

it's unfair to begin with. See mages were just born that way, they didn't do anything to become mages, it wasn't a choice.

I think a good society should go through rough things together. I personally would take the risk of being hurt by a mage, for that mage to have complete freedom and rights just like me, if we are living in the same society, I don't have the right to lock him/her up for what he/she is. The mage did nothing to deserve it, it just happened.

And that's well and good, maybe some day the people of Thedas will decide it's worth the risk too, but it isn't any more right to force them to accept that risk.  People forget that there was an earlier agreement, where mages weren't allowed to do anything.  It was the mages who suggested they be isolated from society so they could practice and research magic.  They were unhappy with the system, held a peaceful protest, and offered an alternative, one that allowed them the freedom to study magic without imposing on the freedom and safety of anyone else.  Present day mages, and mage supporters, offer no alternative and they certainly aren't peaceful.  They've declared that they don't accept the system anymore, they're going to force the danger they represent onto people and they just have to accept it.  How is that any better?  How is it ok for the mages to deny people safety and freedom but not the reverse?

KainD wrote...
4) If a random abomination blows up a district or something, it should be treated like a plane crash. Crap happens, there is no one to blame for it but nature that made people into mages. It doesn't mean however that they should have less freedom. I believe that such tragedies would not be that common, mages would still have to train to control themselves and their powers.

So just deal with it then?  Yeah people are gonna die but we aren't actually going to hold any of the people responsible for those deaths accountable.  We aren't going to hold them to a higher standard or demand greater sacrifices from them; they're just gonna do their thing and if some of you die well it just sucks to be you.  Yeah I suppose we could restrict magic use and research to isolated facilities but that's kind of a downer for the mages so they're just gonna do whatever, wherever, whenever so deal with it.  I hope you'll forgive people for being less than enthusiastic about this set up.

Modifié par DPSSOC, 11 octobre 2012 - 03:12 .

[Auintus]

berelinde wrote...

QFT

People fear what they do not understand. The solution is not to purge the world of everything that falls into that category.

QFT?

[KainD]

@DPSSOC

I am not saying mages should have the right to do anything they want anywhere. They are just supposed to be free. They should live in normal households, be able to marry and have children properly, get a job, etc. It doesn't by any means mean that a mage can start a fireball fireworks in the center of a town for self amusement. He can do so, if the people have asked for flashy fireworks though.

If people don't want to see magic in their daily life that's fine, then mages should practice magic in different more isolated places. But at the end of the day the mage is going to return to his/her home town, his/her house, into his/her family, not a tower in the middle of nowhere where they HAVE to live.

Also I am not forcing people to agree with this, it's just that if people don't agree with it I don't have any problems with them being hurt by mages. What comes around goes around. If a person that wants mages to be isolated for all time against their will get's blasted in the face with a fireball, I say serves them right.

[KainD]

Auintus wrote...

berelinde wrote...

QFT

People fear what they do not understand. The solution is not to purge the world of everything that falls into that category.

QFT?

Quoted For Truth. 

If that is what you meant to ask. 

[Auintus]

KainD wrote...

Auintus wrote...

berelinde wrote...

QFT

People fear what they do not understand. The solution is not to purge the world of everything that falls into that category.

QFT?

Quoted For Truth. 

If that is what you meant to ask. 

Ah, thank you. Still figuring out these things.

[Auintus]

KainD wrote...

@DPSSOC

I am not saying mages should have the right to do anything they want anywhere. They are just supposed to be free. They should live in normal households, be able to marry and have children properly, get a job, etc. It doesn't by any means mean that a mage can start a fireball fireworks in the center of a town for self amusement. He can do so, if the people have asked for flashy fireworks though.

If people don't want to see magic in their daily life that's fine, then mages should practice magic in different more isolated places. But at the end of the day the mage is going to return to his/her home town, his/her house, into his/her family, not a tower in the middle of nowhere where they HAVE to live.

Also I am not forcing people to agree with this, it's just that if people don't agree with it I don't have any problems with them being hurt by mages. What comes around goes around. If a person that wants mages to be isolated for all time against their will get's blasted in the face with a fireball, I say serves them right.

While I agree that mages deserve freedom, there is one snag that must be accounted for: Training. A mage should be trained to control his powers and to avoid or resist demonic invasion or negotiation. A system should be set up to train young mages, after which they are free to return to their lives.

[KainD]

Auintus wrote...

While I agree that mages deserve freedom, there is one snag that must be accounted for: Training. A mage should be trained to control his powers and to avoid or resist demonic invasion or negotiation. A system should be set up to train young mages, after which they are free to return to their lives.

Well of course. We have a mandatory education system, not in the medieval times, but it will be exactly the same only for mages. 

[dragonflight288]

General User wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

*snip*

Why then, should I trust the templars to police the mages if they aren't even capable of policing themselves?

The short answer is: you shouldn't. 

Honestly.  I think that the real problem with the Templar Order, especially in Kirkwall, was a lack of oversight.  Power is, in alot of ways, a "use it or lose it" proposition.  The Chantry found that out the hard way when, after the clerical hierarchy of the Chantry let Templar Order have far too much of a free hand for far too long, the Templars rebelled.

But of course, that's just outlining why the Circles and the Order failed, not a reason why either are a bad idea in the first place.

Actually (if you have a taste for irony), you could even say that the Templar Order's failure to sucessfully police themselves is "Exhibit A" in making the case for why the mages should, under no circumstances, be allowed any remotely similar leeway.

And we come to the crux of the matter.  Abominations do exist, and they are a real danger to people. There are bad eggs in every group, and a blood mage, if smart, can be a very deadly and dangerous being and may not ever get caught unless tracked by those with experience dealing with mages and are trained to combat their magical powers.

BUT, the ones who have the training to deal with mage criminals have, as a whole, shown through time that they are no longer viable candidates to be an impartial police force. Their religious beliefs make them prejudiced against mages in such a way that even a single mage living free is, having never lived in a circle, is considered maleficarum without a thought. Morrigan said it well

Morrigan said

There are no trials for apostates, no prisons. There are only absolutes.

Those absolutes has since extended to every mage. One mage blows up a chantry, let's kill every man, woman, and child in the Circle who aren't even involved with that particular apostate. Let's use an absolute to appease a hypothetical mob that we never see. One mage is suspected of murde and the Divine gives the First Enchanters permission to investigate and meet themselves. Let's kill every mage there because they're mages and are evil and must be aiding a murderer despite the lack of evidence supporting such an argument (I'm deliberately exaggerating that one. Just making a point.)

Add in that the Chantry goes out of its way to try and keep the templar abilities secret. The Grand Cleric, according to Alistair, was about ready to have Duncan and Alistair both arrested because Duncan used the right of conscription on Alistair. Then she went out of her way to make Alistair swear to never reveal anything about templar secrets.

Then there's the lyrium monopoly the chantry controlls...and we have a less than pretty picture.

We need a group who have templar abilities, but lack the lyrium addiction and the religious zealotry. But the state of the world as it is, prevents anyone who isn't a member of the Chantry or the templars, so opportunities to learn those abilities are in short supply.

Since we cannot rely or trust the templars, and as a single mage criminal with the intent do harm can exceed the damage a mundane criminal can do in a single instant (althoug the mundane can match that instant with enough skill and knowledge in combat, bomb making, etc.) the only other option comes down to the mages who practice the school of spirit.

The School of Spirit allows a mage to essentially become an overpowered templar.

That or the dwarves.

In the end, we can debate the pros and the cons of either group. "Mages are punished for what they're born with and deserve freedom. The Circle System puts them in the care of abusive religious zealots with a drug addiction who are more than willing to punish all the innocent ones in order to make sure they get the single guilty one." or "The mages are dangerous because of their magic and are in a constant risk of turning into an abomination....or at the very least have a higher chance than mundanes because of their ability to enter the Fade completely aware and awake. Blood mage mind control is a very real threat." etc. etc. etc.

But ultimately, it's just a video game well a love (or love to argue about) in a fictional world with a very compelling and deep history. And if it were real life, we'd have to take into account certain factors.

1. The opportunities to learn templar abilities are very slim because of the Chantry's recent tight reign on templars. So training a new group with their abilities will be very difficult, even more so if we add in the fact we have to remove the new groups preconceptions and fears of magic because of the Chantry's thousand year reign.

2. Mages had a place to study magic for 1000 years. They are pretty knowledgeable now. And they don't want to be blamed collectively for the crimes of a few, which the Circle System ultimately made sure happened. They will not return to the old system willingly because they know exactly how they'll be treated by the templars and the Chantry. They've been living it for centuries.

3. Neither group is part of the Chantry anymore, so the Chantry will be all bark and little bite. They rose with Orlais, but Orlais's own civil war means the Chantry won't get any support from Celene. So as of right now, all the Chantry is is a religious organization whose lost almost all the power it had to enforce its rules through exalted marches and to command mages to defend against Qunari or Blights.

4. There's a darn good chance the Qunari will invade, and they'll have cannons, poison gas, their own mages, and a very skilled and highly trained army that they've been preparing for possibly centuries. And they'll be no reasoning against them if it defies the Qun.

5. The possibility of more blights rising up are pretty strong as the darkspawn have started to awaken and become intelligent. The most recent blight was started because the Architect was experimenting on ways to stop blights. And his idea of ending the war between humans and darkspawn to simply turn every human into ghouls, essentially committing genocide. That's a factor to be taken into account.

6. The Old God Baby (potentially) and the eluvians + Flemeth are still up in the air and mysterious. Is that place beyond the Fade even more dangerous? Is it less? What's Morrigan planning?

My stance is to get the war over with as soon as possible because there's larger threats just around the corner. Blood mages are dangerous, but they simply aren't the biggest threat in Thedas.

The templars and the mages have to come up with a completely new system. One that allows the mages more autonomy while still enforcing the need for training and the capability to punish the mage criminals...whether the ones doing the punishing are mages or templars. And templars simply ARE needed to fight mage criminals. So they can't be wiped out entirely. Maybe reformed in their recruitment practices and their command structure reorganized, but they are the only ones who have the abilities to negate magic.

Who I ultimately side with in the game, it'll probably be the mages my first playthrough, but I am willing to see what happens as I don't know the characters or what'll happen.

[Warrior Craess]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Warrior Craess wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...
*looks at the people slaughtered and mutilated at Redcliffe due to Connor*

Um, yeah, no, there's quite a lot to fear.  Magic is dangerous.

But once again, this topic is meant to be about blood magic.

magic is dangerous when in the hands of the untrained. Just as a gun is dangerous when in the hands of the untrained, Chemistry is dangerous when done by the untrained.. Notice the common factor there. 

Yes what happened in Redcliff was very bad. Redcliff was not the result of a simple child playing with forces it doesn't understand. There was sooo much more involved in that. What happened in Redcliff was a result of the cultural fear that the average person has about magic/mages, the loss of familial connections for mages sent to the circle (hence the loss of a child that was so feared by Arlessa Isolde), the lack of a qualified teacher who could have made Connor more adept at resisting demons. And let us not forget that Logain had Connor's dad poisoned...  

Magic is only bad in the hands of the untrained, and fearful, and Connor was sadly both. Untrained becuase his teacher was never more than an apprentice, and fearful because his dad was apparently poisoned to death by his teacher.  All of that could have been avoided if the Chantry actually showed compassion towards mages. Rather than twist the chant of light to suit it's own ends.

Magic is dangerous period.  Look at Uldred.  He was well trained; one of the top Enchanters.  And once again you're trying to compare guns, something that typically requires a license to procure that can be more or less easily removed from a person, to a power that's almost impossible to remove in a humane manner and impossible to turn off.

Very, very bad.  And it was about 80% due to Connor.  You can blame Isolde and Jowan and Loghain all you want.  It was Connor who went through Jowan's books and landed himself there.  Not for greed or any typical evil motivation, but for wanting to help his dad.  And everyone in at least a 20 mile area suffered for it.  An untrained magic user did all of that damage, by accident. 

No, it has everything to do with Connor making a deal with a demon.  It was his choice.

It is not me that is missing the point. 
Magic is only dangerous when abused. Wynn is an abomination by the strictest definition. Is she in any need of being executed? She's of Moderate temper, heals people, and supports the chantry and the circle. Yet any templar would gladly kill her, becuase she's been tainted by a spirit. 

You want to focus on only th dangerous aspects of magic, but you fail to acknowledge the very dangerous aspects of people in general.  Anything a mage can do can be duplicated by a non mage. It might take more effort but it can still be done.  What if Dvorkin goes insane, and starts lobbing his little improved exposives around?  I've listed the history of some rather famous cities burning to the ground thousands dead, and tens or hundreds of thousands displaced. all becuase someone forgot to shutter a lamp, or dropped a lamp in a hay barn, or even because someone intentionally set a building on fire.  I've listed several serial killers who needed no magic to rack up some rather large body counts.  But still you persist in assuming that it's magic that makes people dangerous. 

You blind to the fact that you're a bigot. What you suggests for the mages is no different that treating someone differently due to their color, the gender, their race. 

BTW for those of you whom are american, the USA was founded on the principle that freedom was more important than safety. There is nothing in the bill of rights concerning a citizens safety. But there surely is a bunch of stuff mandating their freedom.  That the USA hasn't lived up to that ideal is almost beside the point. The reason it hasn't has been power hungry jack-wads who trumpeted public safety as their means to rise in power. 

Anyways, I'm done arguing a pointless argument. You have your game where you can side with the chantry and templars and be as repressive as you want to be. I have might game, where freedom is important, and criminals of any sort ,magic or otherwise, are held accountable. 

[General User]

dragonflight288 wrote...

And we come to the crux of the matter.  Abominations do exist, and they are a real danger to people. There are bad eggs in every group, and a blood mage, if smart, can be a very deadly and dangerous being and may not ever get caught unless tracked by those with experience dealing with mages and are trained to combat their magical powers.

BUT, the ones who have the training to deal with mage criminals have, as a whole, shown through time that they are no longer viable candidates to be an impartial police force. Their religious beliefs make them prejudiced against mages in such a way that even a single mage living free is, having never lived in a circle, is considered maleficarum without a thought. Morrigan said it well

It's not that the Templar Order has proven itself a shining pillar of virtue and justice it's just that, for pretty much the entirety of their existence under the Chantry, the Templar Order has been the only serious systematic force dedicated to protecting the people of Thedas from, as you put it, very real danger.   To tear that protective bulwark down, no matter how "corrupt" it may or may not be, without having a viable replacement on hand and ready to take over is the absolute height (or should that be "depth") of irresponsibility.

If your military is corrupt, you don’t simply disband it and open your country to invasion.   If your police department is corrupt you don't simply shut it down and let the criminals have the run of your city.  If the bloody health inspector is corrupt you don't simply let restaurant owners do as they please.

dragonflight288 wrote...

Those absolutes has since extended to every mage. One mage blows up a chantry, let's kill every man, woman, and child in the Circle who aren't even involved with that particular apostate. Let's use an absolute to appease a hypothetical mob that we never see. One mage is suspected of murde and the Divine gives the First Enchanters permission to investigate and meet themselves. Let's kill every mage there because they're mages and are evil and must be aiding a murderer despite the lack of evidence supporting such an argument (I'm deliberately exaggerating that one. Just making a point.)

Morrigan is welcome to her opinion, it's just that her opinion is wrong.  We've seen quite a few times in both games where the Templars have gone to considerable effort to bring apostate mages in peacefully.

And if you're trying to convince me that Meredith was insane, you needn't bother.   You'd just be preaching to the choir.  I'm not 100% sure you grasp the implications of Meredith's lyrium-idol driven insanity though.  In nutshell, because Meredith was driven over the edge by a magic force, she was NOT an example of the Templar Order.  Actually, just the opposite, Meredith was infact a sterling example of what the Order was organized to defend against, and just how dire the consequences can be they fail. 

IOW, if you thought Meredith was bad, just wait till you see what comes flying out of Pandora's Box once the Order is no more.

[Lotion Soronarr]

KainD wrote...

@DPSSOC

it's unfair to begin with. See mages were just born that way, they didn't do anything to become mages, it wasn't a choice.

I think a good society should go through rough things together. I personally would take the risk of being hurt by a mage, for that mage to have complete freedom and rights just like me, if we are living in the same society, I don't have the right to lock him/her up for what he/she is. The mage did nothing to deserve it, it just happened.

Then you are stupid and should die along with the mage.

1) If the mage says: hey buddy, thanks, I appreciate my freedom but I don't want to hurt anyone by accident, so I will lock myself in a tower. That would be HIS/HER choice, and only the mage can do that choice, not me for them.

Unfortunately, that's not how the wrold works.
See: Quarantine; Collateral Damage

2) The trade off is that mages can use their magic for the good of the society too on a daily life basis if again they choose to.

They can use their magic for the good of the society in the Cirlces too.

3) If the mage is being an a*s and is abusing the magic, and is committing crimes then and only THEN can we lock them up for their bad behavior like any other criminal. Not before they have done anything wrong, only AFTER.

Mages arne't normal humans.
You are commiting a biggest logical fallacy by  treating two different entities the same. They are objectively, demonstratively NOT thesame.

Their threat level is off the charts.

4) If a random abomination blows up a district or something, it should be treated like a plane crash. Crap happens, there is no one to blame for it but nature that made people into mages. It doesn't mean however that they should have less freedom. I believe that such tragedies would not be that common, mages would still have to train to control themselves and their powers.

If a tower is annuled, it should be treated like a plane crash.
No one to blame but the nature that made people into mages.

[deatharmonic]

 I agree OP - In another thread I mentioned some combat implications for blood magic which i'll leave here...

If I choose to meddle with blood magic I want to feel like I'm walking a knife edge, I want to feel that sense having extreme power with equally disastrous consequences. Which I would like to see reflected in combat, so for example:

- How about summoning a demon but with the chance of it backfiring and attacking you?

- Having an ability in which you channel the strength of a demon replacing your moves temporarily with a set of really powerful ones, but! There's an even higher chance you'd be unable to control it and subsequently end up fighting your companions, which could lead to various outcomes:

         1 -  If you win it results in the permanent death of team mates in the most extreme incidence orthey flee and refuse to follow you if they're essential to the plot.

         2 - If you lose well then you die

         3 - If your stats are high enough then you have the chance to regain control, and depending on how your companions feel about blood magic they either refuse to work with you or stay.

Modifié par deatharmonic, 11 octobre 2012 - 02:00 .

[Xilizhra]

It's not that the Templar Order has proven itself a shining pillar of virtue and justice it's just that, for pretty much the entirety of their existence under the Chantry, the Templar Order has been the only serious systematic force dedicated to protecting the people of Thedas from, as you put it, very real danger. To tear that protective bulwark down, no matter how "corrupt" it may or may not be, without having a viable replacement on hand and ready to take over is the absolute height (or should that be "depth") of irresponsibility.

The templars started the war. We will just finish it.
Now, creating a system mid-war will be a good idea if possible, of course.

If your military is corrupt, you don’t simply disband it and open your country to invasion. If your police department is corrupt you don't simply shut it down and let the criminals have the run of your city. If the bloody health inspector is corrupt you don't simply let restaurant owners do as they please.

This isn't just about corruption anymore, this is about genocide and the war going along with it. Reform is no longer an option. And while the quote from ME3 may not have been the best, I must requote it again because its spirit is accurate here: "We fight or we die."

Morrigan is welcome to her opinion, it's just that her opinion is wrong. We've seen quite a few times in both games where the Templars have gone to considerable effort to bring apostate mages in peacefully.

In DA2, it's only one templar who ever tries that, and he goes rogue eventually. In DAO... I actually don't know of templars ever trying to do so except in a cut scene with Morrigan.

And if you're trying to convince me that Meredith was insane, you needn't bother. You'd just be preaching to the choir. I'm not 100% sure you grasp the implications of Meredith's lyrium-idol driven insanity though. In nutshell, because Meredith was driven over the edge by a magic force, she was NOT an example of the Templar Order. Actually, just the opposite, Meredith was infact a sterling example of what the Order was organized to defend against, and just how dire the consequences can be they fail.

Meredith was a sterling example of the Order itself in Act 1, and not much different in Act 2. Even in Act 3, she wasn't all that different until the very end.

[General User]

I was addressing a general principle.  Obviously (and as always) the specific circumstances of this case require that allowances and adjustments be made.  Namely both the mage rebellion and the Templar Order need to be brought to heel or, failing that, crushed before any real and lasting reform will be possible.

[Xilizhra]

General User wrote...

I was addressing a general principle.  Obviously (and as always) the specific circumstances of this case require that allowances and adjustments be made.  Namely both the mage rebellion and the Templar Order need to be brought to heel or, failing that, crushed before any real and lasting reform will be possible.

I refuse to bring the rebellion "to heel." My primary interest is helping it succeed; after that, the next priority is helping it build up solidly. In fact... my Inquisition may be the seed of a new order to guard the mages.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

General User wrote...

I was addressing a general principle.  Obviously (and as always) the specific circumstances of this case require that allowances and adjustments be made.  Namely both the mage rebellion and the Templar Order need to be brought to heel or, failing that, crushed before any real and lasting reform will be possible.

I refuse to bring the rebellion "to heel." My primary interest is helping it succeed; after that, the next priority is helping it build up solidly. In fact... my Inquisition may be the seed of a new order to guard the mages.

Sounds good.  And I wish you luck. 

Just remember.  When you allow violent extremists (of any kind) to dictate an agenda, the end results are... seldom positive.  Again, just addressing a general principle.

Modifié par General User, 11 octobre 2012 - 02:50 .