2177 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

General User wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

General User wrote...

I was addressing a general principle.  Obviously (and as always) the specific circumstances of this case require that allowances and adjustments be made.  Namely both the mage rebellion and the Templar Order need to be brought to heel or, failing that, crushed before any real and lasting reform will be possible.

I refuse to bring the rebellion "to heel." My primary interest is helping it succeed; after that, the next priority is helping it build up solidly. In fact... my Inquisition may be the seed of a new order to guard the mages.

Sounds good.  And I wish you luck. 

Just remember.  When you allow violent extremists of any kind, to dictate an agenda, the end results are... seldom positive.  Again, just adressing a gnereal principle.

Fiona's not a violent extremist, so that part should be fine. Even Adrian's not so bad. The people to look out for are total nuts like Tarohne, and I don't think it'll necessarily be a huge problem weeding them out .

[Cultist]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Then you are stupid and should die along with the mage.

We've yet to see a thread where Lotion not islulting someone, who disagrees with him.

Unfortunately, that's not how the wrold works.
See: Quarantine; Collateral Damage

Quarantine is a temporary solution not a permanent one.

They can use their magic for the good of the society in the Cirlces too.

Such a great theory! Slaves at the factory can do and produce a lot of good things for society as well!

Mages arne't normal humans.
You are commiting a biggest logical fallacy by  treating two different entities the same. They are objectively, demonstratively NOT thesame.

Their threat level is off the charts.

That is a great excuse for persecution and genocide.

If a tower is annuled, it should be treated like a plane crash.
No one to blame but the nature that made people into mages.

Yes, yes, good old "It's not my fault I helped destroying that village, I just followed orders"

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

Fiona's not a violent extremist, so that part should be fine. Even Adrian's not so bad. The people to look out for are total nuts like Tarohne, and I don't think it'll necessarily be a huge problem weeding them out .

Well, stark raving loonies are seldom hard to spot.  Hell, in Thedas they even dress distinctly. 

It's weeding out the more subtle ones, the "Citizen Robespierre"-types if you will, that one should find more of a challenge, though ultimately they are the greater threat.

[Xilizhra]

General User wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Fiona's not a violent extremist, so that part should be fine. Even Adrian's not so bad. The people to look out for are total nuts like Tarohne, and I don't think it'll necessarily be a huge problem weeding them out .

Well, stark raving loonies are seldom hard to spot.  Hell, in Thedas they even dress distinctly. 

It's weeding out the more subtle ones, the "Citizen Robespierre"-types if you will, that one should find more of a challenge, though ultimately they are the greater threat.

Well, if it's Robespierre (hah, "Robes"pierre; that'd be a good slur if I was a templar stooge) vs. Himmler/Heydrich, I know which one I'm rooting for. Do you fear Adrian?

[The Elder King]

Xilizhra wrote...

General User wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Fiona's not a violent extremist, so that part should be fine. Even Adrian's not so bad. The people to look out for are total nuts like Tarohne, and I don't think it'll necessarily be a huge problem weeding them out .

Well, stark raving loonies are seldom hard to spot.  Hell, in Thedas they even dress distinctly. 

It's weeding out the more subtle ones, the "Citizen Robespierre"-types if you will, that one should find more of a challenge, though ultimately they are the greater threat.

Well, if it's Robespierre (hah, "Robes"pierre; that'd be a good slur if I was a templar stooge) vs. Himmler/Heydrich, I know which one I'm rooting for. Do you fear Adrian?

Killing/stopping  both is not an option?

[Xilizhra]

Killing/stopping both is not an option?

Unfortunately, I don't have a good analogy for the Chantry here... Neville Chamberlain doesn't work, as his stance actually did some good for Britain. Anyway, the templars need to be eradicated and the Chantry's power over the mages broken forever. Hopefully, Robespierre won't be necessary for this, but if he is, we need to prioritize the Maker's slaves over our own people until the war is won.

In short, I fear we'd be forced to be neutral if we tried to stop both, and that's something I refuse to be.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 11 octobre 2012 - 03:43 .

[KainD]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Unfortunately, that's not how the wrold works.
See: Quarantine; Collateral Damage

Emphasis on the "unfortunately", our world is messed up, and I am not a person of great power to change such things. But you can't really blame me for wanting to set thing the proper way in a fantasy RPG now can you? Where my char actually has power. 

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
They can use their magic for the good of the society in the Cirlces too.

Sure, if the mages choose to live in a circle themselves.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Mages arne't normal humans.
You are commiting a biggest logical fallacy by  treating two different entities the same. They are objectively, demonstratively NOT thesame.

Their threat level is off the charts.

 

They are normal humans with special powers. It doesn't make them much different. I don't care about the threat, it is a lot smaller when unintended.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Then you are stupid and should die along with the mage.

Well that is the kind of stance my character has even when not a mage, happily will kill everyone who act against mage freedom, and happy to die trying. 

P.S - this debate is ridicilously similar to a debate back in Mass effect on Morrinth and the Ardat Yakshi seclusion. This was the EXACT same point why I killed Samara and was on Morinth's side.

Modifié par KainD, 11 octobre 2012 - 03:54 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]KainD wrote...

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Unfortunately, that's not how the wrold works.
See: Quarantine; Collateral Damage
[/quote]

Emphasis on the "unfortunately", our world is messed up, and I am not a person of great power to change such things. But you can't really blame me for wanting to set thing the proper way in a fantasy RPG now can you? Where my char actually has power. [/quote]

I say "unfortunately" for your argument.
The world might be messed up, but that's not one of the reasons why.

Quarantene is simply SMART and LOGICAL.
So is locking mages up.

Your character having power is irrelevant, as stupid moves remian stupid moves. Fantasy doesn't negate Common Sense.


[quote]
[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Mages arne't normal humans.
You are commiting a biggest logical fallacy by  treating two different entities the same. They are objectively, demonstratively NOT thesame.

Their threat level is off the charts.
[/quote] 

They are normal humans with special powers. It doesn't make them much different. I don't care about the threat, it is a lot smaller when unintended.[quote]

Then they aren't normal, now are they?
and it does make htem much different. A mage, even a well-behaved, well-intentioned one, can destroy an entire village and threaten entire regions.

Only a fool doens't care about a threat. Any true leader has to think of everything.


[quote]
[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Then you are stupid and should die along with the mage.
[/quote]

Well that is the kind of stance my character has even when not a mage, happily will kill everyone who act against mage freedom, and happy to die trying.
[/quote]

You are more likely ot die at the hands of a crazed mage or abomination.
It will be ironic.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Xilizhra wrote...

Killing/stopping both is not an option?

Unfortunately, I don't have a good analogy for the Chantry here... Neville Chamberlain doesn't work, as his stance actually did some good for Britain. Anyway, the templars need to be eradicated and the Chantry's power over the mages broken forever. Hopefully, Robespierre won't be necessary for this, but if he is, we need to prioritize the Maker's slaves over our own people until the war is won.

In short, I fear we'd be forced to be neutral if we tried to stop both, and that's something I refuse to be.

Other way around.
Mages and all who support them need to be eradicated forever.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Cultist wrote...
We've yet to see a thread where Lotion not islulting someone, who disagrees with him.

Right back at you.

Quarantine is a temporary solution not a permanent one.

It is permament unless you find a cure.

Mages arne't normal humans.
You are commiting a biggest logical fallacy by  treating two different entities the same. They are objectively, demonstratively NOT thesame.

Their threat level is off the charts.

That is a great excuse for persecution and genocide.

Excuse? no.
Valid reason? Yes.

Mages being locked up is 100% valid and justified.

If a tower is annuled, it should be treated like a plane crash.
No one to blame but the nature that made people into mages.

Yes, yes, good old "It's not my fault I helped destroying that village, I just followed orders"

Cause and consequence. Natural order.

DEUS VULIT!

[Xilizhra]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Killing/stopping both is not an option?

Unfortunately, I don't have a good analogy for the Chantry here... Neville Chamberlain doesn't work, as his stance actually did some good for Britain. Anyway, the templars need to be eradicated and the Chantry's power over the mages broken forever. Hopefully, Robespierre won't be necessary for this, but if he is, we need to prioritize the Maker's slaves over our own people until the war is won.

In short, I fear we'd be forced to be neutral if we tried to stop both, and that's something I refuse to be.

Other way around.
Mages and all who support them need to be eradicated forever.

See, this is nice. Bioware doesn't even need to create a new character; you've already filled the Heydrich role for them. Just take your posts and build a new character around that.

[The Elder King]

Xilizhra wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...


Other way around.
Mages and all who support them need to be eradicated forever.

See, this is nice. Bioware doesn't even need to create a new character; you've already filled the Heydrich role for them. Just take your posts and build a new character around that.

Well, you've said in your post that the templars need to be eradicated. This could be interpreted in two way: kill all the templars, or eradicate the templar's organization. If you intended the former, your post is not that different from Lotion's.

[Dave of Canada]

Still can't wait to see mages become the main antagonists of Dragon Age 3, every one of them becoming possessed by demons with Fiona appearing as the well-intentioned extremist.

The Inquisition has to unite every race on Thedas to fight the demon threat and the mages which are helping them, which only Lord Seeker Lambert didn't underestimate.

Don't believe me? Cerberus is a dog with three heads, Tevinter/Blood Mage Statues and Orsino's staff has three dragon heads.

Mages are evil!

[KainD]

@Lotion Soronnar

Sorry, but you just sound like a selfish, obsessed with safety coward. And most people would have a similar stance in a real similar situation.

This is when Anders was right, and there is no compromise. This is again the same exact point I came to while discussing Morinth. Because of people like you all mages should know blood magic as a mandatory for their own protection against you and learn to kill without mercy. And if they start a second Imperium like Tevinter, they will be in the right and justified to do so, for what comes around goes around.

And even if you manage to destroy the mages. All the war and death's, all burnt towns and dead families will be on YOUR hands, you would be the antagonist and the aggressor.

[Dhiro]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Still can't wait to see mages become the main antagonists of Dragon Age 3, every one of them becoming possessed by demons with Fiona appearing as the well-intentioned extremist.

The Inquisition has to unite every race on Thedas to fight the demon threat and the mages which are helping them, which only Lord Seeker Lambert didn't underestimate.

Don't believe me? Cerberus is a dog with three heads, Tevinter/Blood Mage Statues and Orsino's staff has three dragon heads.

Mages are evil!

Flemeth is obviously The Illusive Witch.

[The Elder King]

Xilizhra wrote...

Killing/stopping both is not an option?

Unfortunately, I don't have a good analogy for the Chantry here... Neville Chamberlain doesn't work, as his stance actually did some good for Britain. Anyway, the templars need to be eradicated and the Chantry's power over the mages broken forever. Hopefully, Robespierre won't be necessary for this, but if he is, we need to prioritize the Maker's slaves over our own people until the war is won.

In short, I fear we'd be forced to be neutral if we tried to stop both, and that's something I refuse to be.

Not really. If you side with the mages, you'll obviously stop the templars. If there are different mage leaders (which I think there'll be), there might be the choice for the PC to support or stop certain leaders.
If there'll be only one leader for faction, and the leaders will be like Robespierre/Himmler, I really doubt I'll choose one of them. Choosing between the lesser evil is a thing I really hate.

[Dave of Canada]

KainD wrote...

This is when Anders was right, and there is no compromise.

Except Anders was insane.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 11 octobre 2012 - 05:36 .

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

General User wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Fiona's not a violent extremist, so that part should be fine. Even Adrian's not so bad. The people to look out for are total nuts like Tarohne, and I don't think it'll necessarily be a huge problem weeding them out .

Well, stark raving loonies are seldom hard to spot.  Hell, in Thedas they even dress distinctly. 

It's weeding out the more subtle ones, the "Citizen Robespierre"-types if you will, that one should find more of a challenge, though ultimately they are the greater threat.

Well, if it's Robespierre (hah, "Robes"pierre; that'd be a good slur if I was a templar stooge) vs. Himmler/Heydrich, I know which one I'm rooting for. Do you fear Adrian?

Ha!  Good one.

But I'm not familiar with Adrian.

[KainD]

Dave of Canada wrote...

KainD wrote...

This is when Anders was right, and there is no compromise.

Except Anders was insane.

He was not Anders exactly but a mix of Anders and Justice, but he did everything right. I wanted to clap and say "bravo" when he blew up the chantry. 

[Dave of Canada]

Dhiro wrote...

Flemeth is obviously The Illusive Witch.

Flemeth is the one responsible for all mages becoming possessed, Fiona tried to study Flemeth's magic and hope to stop it but only resulted in getting herself possessed by the demons. In the final confrontation with Fiona, she'll use blood magic to make you stab Lambert and you'll have a teary farewell before you decide to destroy all demons, control all demons or make everyone into demons.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 11 octobre 2012 - 05:41 .

[The Elder King]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Still can't wait to see mages become the main antagonists of Dragon Age 3, every one of them becoming possessed by demons with Fiona appearing as the well-intentioned extremist.

The Inquisition has to unite every race on Thedas to fight the demon threat and the mages which are helping them, which only Lord Seeker Lambert didn't underestimate.

Don't believe me? Cerberus is a dog with three heads, Tevinter/Blood Mage Statues and Orsino's staff has three dragon heads.

Mages are evil!

The leader mage at the end of the game will try to convince the PC that he wanted to control the demons to make humans have the power to defeat the qunari and rule over Thedas?

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Killing/stopping both is not an option?

Unfortunately, I don't have a good analogy for the Chantry here... Neville Chamberlain doesn't work, as his stance actually did some good for Britain. Anyway, the templars need to be eradicated and the Chantry's power over the mages broken forever. Hopefully, Robespierre won't be necessary for this, but if he is, we need to prioritize the Maker's slaves over our own people until the war is won.

In short, I fear we'd be forced to be neutral if we tried to stop both, and that's something I refuse to be.

Other way around.
Mages and all who support them need to be eradicated forever.

See, this is nice. Bioware doesn't even need to create a new character; you've already filled the Heydrich role for them. Just take your posts and build a new character around that.

Here's some free advice: you might want to go easy on the 3rd Reich references towards others while using phrases like "prioritize the Maker's slaves over our own people."   Just on the off chance that irony is toxic.

Modifié par General User, 11 octobre 2012 - 05:50 .

[The Elder King]

KainD wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

KainD wrote...

This is when Anders was right, and there is no compromise.

Except Anders was insane.

He was not Anders exactly but a mix of Anders and Justice, but he did everything right. I wanted to clap and say "bravo" when he blew up the chantry. 

If every mages were like Anders, I'd never support mages. I never support terrorism.
The very reason why I choose mages over the templars in DA2 (considering how both organizations were badly rapresented in DA2) is because the Cicle wasn't involved in Anders's action. Meredith, her templars, Hawke and Varric are more guilty for the destruction of the Chantry, since the formers failed miserably in finding him in 7 years, and the latters protected them.

[The Elder King]

General User wrote...

[

But I'm not familiar with Adrian.

She's a Libertarian female senior echanter in Asunder.

[Dave of Canada]

hhh89 wrote...

The leader mage at the end of the game will try to convince the PC that he wanted to control the demons to make humans have the power to defeat the qunari and rule over Thedas?

This man gets it.