2177 réponses à ce sujet

[General User]

hhh89 wrote...

General User wrote...

But I'm not familiar with Adrian.

She's a Libertarian female senior echanter in Asunder.

Is she a good person?

[The Elder King]

General User wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

General User wrote...

But I'm not familiar with Adrian.

She's a Libertarian female senior echanter in Asunder.

Is she a good person?

I don't know, really. I read the info in the wikia. SPOILER





She was pushing for the mage-templar war, and this lead to some conflict with Wynne's son (which is Aequitarian).

[KainD]

hhh89 wrote...

If every mages were like Anders, I'd never support mages. I never support terrorism.
The very reason why I choose mages over the templars in DA2 (considering how both organizations were badly rapresented in DA2) is because the Cicle wasn't involved in Anders's action. Meredith, her templars, Hawke and Varric are more guilty for the destruction of the Chantry, since the formers failed miserably in finding him in 7 years, and the latters protected them.

Everyone who fight back like Anders must be eradicated, clearly fightning back is a trait of evil. 

There is no "guilt" in blowing up the chantry, it was "Justice". 

[LobselVith8]

hhh89 wrote...

If every mages were like Anders, I'd never support mages. I never support terrorism.

The Chantry isn't a civilian target; Anders didn't target civilians when he destroyed the Chantry at night (when it was closed off to the public). Grand Cleric Elthina and the other members of the Chantry and the Order of Templars who were in the Kirkwall Chantry at night are members of an organization that participates in politics, and has its own military to enforce their rule over mages across the Andrastian nations. Some mages have condemned the Chantry controlled Circles as slavery, from Aldenon the Wise (who aided Teyrn Calenhad in creating Ferelden from warring teyrnirs, and wanted to create a kingdom where all people would be equal) to Anders and pro-mage Hawke in present day Kirkwall.

hhh89 wrote...

The very reason why I choose mages over the templars in DA2 (considering how both organizations were badly rapresented in DA2) is because the Cicle wasn't involved in Anders's action.

Meredith wanted to kill the Circle of Kirkwall to appease a hypothetical mob; it was an asinine choice.

hhh89 wrote...

Meredith, her templars, Hawke and Varric are more guilty for the destruction of the Chantry, since the formers failed miserably in finding him in 7 years, and the latters protected them.

No one tried to locate Anders; Cullen knows that Anders is a mage in Act II. In the third Act, Hawke's status as Champion apparently protects Anders and Merrill as apostates, since Meredith explicitly notes that Anders' status as an apostate is overlooked because of the Champion. Hawke can even warn Cullen about Anders plotting against the Chantry (with Anders standing right next to the Champion as he reveals this), and the Knight-Captain won't do anything (as you can see here).

[The Elder King]

KainD wrote...




Everyone who fight back like Anders must be eradicated, clearly fightning back is a trait of evil. 

There is no "guilt" in blowing up the chantry, it was "Justice". 

Fighting back is not evil. Figthing back like Anders this until  Act 3 is not evil. Figthing a war is not evil.
But blowing up a Chantry full of innocent people is wrong. It's a terroristic act. That's what I believe.

Modifié par hhh89, 11 octobre 2012 - 06:08 .

[KainD]

hhh89 wrote...

But blowing up a Chantry full of innocent people is wrong. It's a terroristic act. That's what I believe.

How the hell are people that basically built the templar order and encouraged mage regulations innocent? 

It's like someone would blow up a bunch of tevinter magisters and someone would go: 
"Omg, they were unarmed and didn't do anything, they were innocent! They were just casually living and going about their slave trade!"


Edit: Yeah read what LobselVith8 said. 

Modifié par KainD, 11 octobre 2012 - 06:13 .

[General User]

hhh89 wrote...

General User wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

General User wrote...

But I'm not familiar with Adrian.

She's a Libertarian female senior echanter in Asunder.

Is she a good person?

I don't know, really. I read the info in the wikia. SPOILER

She was pushing for the mage-templar war, and this lead to some conflict with Wynne's son (which is Aequitarian).

Hmm.  It's hard for me to say then.  I'm the sort that would rather see a leader who's a good person with bad politics than one who's a bad person with good politics. 

Though I will say that "war-monger" isn't a great place for this Adrian to start in my book.

Modifié par General User, 11 octobre 2012 - 06:14 .

[The Elder King]

To Lobsel and Kain: I don't remember in the game that the Chantry was closed off. I remember Anders saying that the people who died in the Chantry deversed justice too, so I think that civilians were present. Is there any proof that the Chantry was closed off to civilians?
And in the case the Chantry was closed off to public, that doesn't mean that every person in the Chantry is evil. There are people who join the Chantry to help people. I really hate when both mages and templars followers said that all mages are evil/all templars/priest are evil.
There are good and innocent people in the Chantry. So even if the Chantry was full of priests only, the act was a terroristic one. I'm not going to change my mind. If the mage's factions will act as Anders, and the templars as in DA2, I'd really support the (possible) third option and defeat both.

Modifié par hhh89, 11 octobre 2012 - 06:26 .

[LobselVith8]

hhh89 wrote...

Fighting back is not evil. Figthing back like Anders this until  Act 3 is not evil. Figthing a war is not evil.
But blowing up a Chantry full of innocent people is wrong. It's a terroristic act. That's what I believe.

If the only people currently residing in the building are members of an organization that engages in slavery against mages (which is what Anders and pro-mage Hawke believe), then is it terrorism to kill them? Grand Cleric Elthina is Meredith's superior, but she does nothing about the plight of the mages, she does nothing about Meredith acting as the de facto Viscount, and she doesn't stop Meredith's death squad from murdering people in broad daylight.

When Hawke brings Alrik's abuses against mages to Elthina's attention, she doesn't want to discuss the matter at all. Elthina even promoted Petrice from 'Sister' to 'Mother' between Acts I and II, and Petrice is anything but subtle about her extremist views. When Hawke addresses that Petrice is using the seal to ignite a religious conflict between Andrastians and the Qunari, Elthina does nothing. When Hawke asks for her to intervene between the rising conflict between templars and mages, Elthina refuses to do anything. Grand Cleric Elthina isn't someone who I see as an innocent bystander in this conflict.

[The Elder King]

LobselVith8 wrote...

If the only people currently residing in the building are members of an organization that engages in slavery against mages (which is what Anders and pro-mage Hawke believe), then is it terrorism to kill them? Grand Cleric Elthina is Meredith's superior, but she does nothing about the plight of the mages, she does nothing about Meredith acting as the de facto Viscount, and she doesn't stop Meredith's death squad from murdering people in broad daylight.

When Hawke brings Alrik's abuses against mages to Elthina's attention, she doesn't want to discuss the matter at all. Elthina even promoted Petrice from 'Sister' to 'Mother' between Acts I and II, and Petrice is anything but subtle about her extremist views. When Hawke addresses that Petrice is using the seal to ignite a religious conflict between Andrastians and the Qunari, Elthina does nothing. When Hawke asks for her to intervene between the rising conflict between templars and mages, Elthina refuses to do anything. Grand Cleric Elthina isn't someone who I see as an innocent bystander in this conflict.

Elthina and Petrice are only TWO priests. Regardless of my opinion of Elthina's there's plently of other priests in the Chantry, and I don't believe that they're all evil. There are innocent priests, so I'll continue to say that Anders's act is terrorism.
And about the Chantry's situation when Anders blew it up, read my previous post.

[KainD]

hhh89 wrote...

To Lobsel and Kain: I don't remember in the game that the Chantry was closed off. I remember Anders saying that the people who died in the Chantry deversed justice too, so I think that civilians were present. Is there any proof that the Chantry was closed off to civilians?
And in the case the Chantry was closed off to public, that doesn't mean that every person in the Chantry is evil. There are people who join the Chantry to help people. I really hate when both mages and templars followers said that all mages are evil/all templars/priest are evil.
There are good and innocent people in the Chantry. So even if the Chantry was full of priests only, the act was a terroristic one. I'm not going to change my mind. If the mage's factions will act as Anders, and the templars as in DA2, I'd really support the (possible) third option and defeat both.

When you join an organization you except what it stands for no? If you are a part of the chantry then you agree with chantry politics and teachings. If so you are not innocent. If not, what are you doing among chantry ranks? 

[Lotion Soronarr]

Xilizhra wrote...
See, this is nice. Bioware doesn't even need to create a new character; you've already filled the Heydrich role for them. Just take your posts and build a new character around that.

Only if they make a character built around you.. kinda like Uldred. Only far crazier.

[LobselVith8]

hhh89 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

If the only people currently residing in the building are members of an organization that engages in slavery against mages (which is what Anders and pro-mage Hawke believe), then is it terrorism to kill them? Grand Cleric Elthina is Meredith's superior, but she does nothing about the plight of the mages, she does nothing about Meredith acting as the de facto Viscount, and she doesn't stop Meredith's death squad from murdering people in broad daylight.

When Hawke brings Alrik's abuses against mages to Elthina's attention, she doesn't want to discuss the matter at all. Elthina even promoted Petrice from 'Sister' to 'Mother' between Acts I and II, and Petrice is anything but subtle about her extremist views. When Hawke addresses that Petrice is using the seal to ignite a religious conflict between Andrastians and the Qunari, Elthina does nothing. When Hawke asks for her to intervene between the rising conflict between templars and mages, Elthina refuses to do anything. Grand Cleric Elthina isn't someone who I see as an innocent bystander in this conflict.

Elthina and Petrice are only TWO priests. Regardless of my opinion of Elthina's there's plently of other priests in the Chantry, and I don't believe that they're all evil. There are innocent priests, so I'll continue to say that Anders's act is terrorism.
And about the Chantry's situation when Anders blew it up, read my previous post.

It can be argued that they are members of an organization that engages in slavery against mages across the continent, which means they aren't innocent. He blew up members of an organization that enslaved his people for almost a millennia. I don't think that is terrorism, especially when the objective is to emancipate mages from a reign of subjugation that has transpired for nearly a thousand years.

[Lotion Soronarr]

KainD wrote...

@Lotion Soronnar

Sorry, but you just sound like a selfish, obsessed with safety coward. And most people would have a similar stance in a real similar situation.

Lol...selfish?
Look who is talking. You want to risk the safety, lives and freedom of the majority to satisfy the whims of the few.

See, the way I see it I don't have the right NOT to imprison the mages, since that would be highly irresponsible for the other 99% of the human population.

Despite how poorly the games are at showing it, mages are a very very clear and present danger. Walking nukes.

This is when Anders was right, and there is no compromise. This is again the same exact point I came to while discussing Morinth. Because of people like you all mages should know blood magic as a mandatory for their own protection against you and learn to kill without mercy. And if they start a second Imperium like Tevinter, they will be in the right and justified to do so, for what comes around goes around.

And hten hte templars would be justified in slaughtering each and every last one of them.
waht goes around comes around?

If mages were smart and responsbile, they would accept their own dangerous nature and act responsibly - like Wynne.
She had no problem with living in the Circle.

And even if you manage to destroy the mages. All the war and death's, all burnt towns and dead families will be on YOUR hands, you would be the antagonist and the aggressor.

In your oppinions. I wonder if the citizens of Thedas would agree. Probably not.
I can live with that.

[Lotion Soronarr]

KainD wrote...
He was not Anders exactly but a mix of Anders and Justice, but he did everything right. I wanted to clap and say "bravo" when he blew up the chantry.

See...and then you say I should feel bad because the blood of innocents would be on my hands..and you clap and cheer a madman mage who murders innocents...

[LobselVith8]

hhh89 wrote...

To Lobsel and Kain: I don't remember in the game that the Chantry was closed off.

The Chantry is always closed at night; we see this throughout all three Acts. It's closed off to the public at night, which is why the Champion and his moiety crew have outright battles against Isabela's enemies, templars, and even members of Petrice's religious militia, without any civilian casualties. It's how Petrice was able to murder the Viscount's son without any witnesses.

hhh89 wrote...

I remember Anders saying that the people who died in the Chantry deversed justice too, so I think that civilians were present. Is there any proof that the Chantry was closed off to civilians?

I don't doubt Anders thinks that the people who died in the Kirkwall Chantry deserve justice. He is a religious Andrastian, after all. That doesn't change that we explicitly see members of the Chantry and the Order of Templars in the scene of the Kirkwall Chantry being destroyed, without any civilians present.

hhh89 wrote...

And in the case the Chantry was closed off to public, that doesn't mean that every person in the Chantry is evil. There are people who join the Chantry to help people. I really hate when both mages and templars followers said that all mages are evil/all templars/priest are evil.

No one is saying that members of the Chantry are inherently evil, but they are members of an organization that participates in vile conduct. The main point is that they aren't civilians, they are members of a politico-military organization that controls the lives of Circle mages across virtually all of Thedas.

hhh89 wrote...

There are good and innocent people in the Chantry. So even if the Chantry was full of priests only, the act was a terroristic one. I'm not going to change my mind. If the mage's factions will act as Anders, and the templars as in DA2, I'd really support the (possible) third option and defeat both.

If it was a military target, then it was an act of war.

[KainD]

@Lotion Soronnar

No you don't get it. YOU start the issue, you are the initiator of aggression. "What comes around goes around" doesn't stand for taking revenge on someone who took revenge on you for hurting them in the first place.

I don't don't want to risk anyone's lives, I just know that it is the right thing to do, and that I would risk my personal life. Others don't agree, and that is fine, it is their opinion, they should know however that it is going to war and they are going to be in danger anyway, and in far greater one, because they don't want thing to be the proper way.

See maybe mages could even live somewhere isolated, but mundanes won't live them alone, because they will still fear of what mages are doing that is not under their control and so they won't let them be.

There were NO innocent people in the chantry.

[Lotion Soronarr]

KainD wrote...

When you join an organization you except what it stands for no? If you are a part of the chantry then you agree with chantry politics and teachings. If so you are not innocent. If not, what are you doing among chantry ranks?

Trying to do good? 
Seriously, you're being obnoxious here.

Are you saying that every Christain then supports everything wrong the Church did? Because it really, REALLY sounds liek you are saying jsut such thing.

Well then, I declare that any mages actions are representative of the actions of a Cricle and mages everywhere as a whole. Therefore Anders blowing up the chantry makes all mages guilty by default.
I also say other mages helped Anders (his denial proves nothing) and the increased blood magic activity is all part of a mages uprising - and even if it isn't it proves jsut how unstable and corrupted the Circle has become. There's no telling who could be possesed and who isn't.
Therefore annuling the Circle is the only right choice.

[Lotion Soronarr]

KainD wrote...

@Lotion Soronnar

No you don't get it. YOU start the issue, you are the initiator of aggression. "What comes around goes around" doesn't stand for taking revenge on someone who took revenge on you for hurting them in the first place.

No, the mages are the one who are to blame.
If they accept their lot and control themselves, there wouldnt' be a need to the circles to be so strict in the first place.

I don't don't want to risk anyone's lives, I just know that it is the right thing to do, and that I would risk my personal life. Others don't agree, and that is fine, it is their opinion, they should know however that it is going to war and they are going to be in danger anyway, and in far greater one, because they don't want thing to be the proper way.

Their way is the proper way, your way is the wrong way.
Your refusal to admit it is what is causing the war.

There were NO innocent people in the chantry.

There are NO innocent mages.

[Shadow Fox]

It's arguments like the above that make me hope that BOTH sides are blown to hell in DA3's opening cinematatic.

[Xilizhra]

General User wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

General User wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

General User wrote...

But I'm not familiar with Adrian.

She's a Libertarian female senior echanter in Asunder.

Is she a good person?

I don't know, really. I read the info in the wikia. SPOILER

She was pushing for the mage-templar war, and this lead to some conflict with Wynne's son (which is Aequitarian).

Hmm.  It's hard for me to say then.  I'm the sort that would rather see a leader who's a good person with bad politics than one who's a bad person with good politics. 

Though I will say that "war-monger" isn't a great place for this Adrian to start in my book.

Do you want spoilers?

And I'm not quite sure where the irony would be in the "Prioritizing the Maker's slaves over our own people " thing.

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...
It can be argued that they are members of an organization that engages in slavery against mages across the continent, which means they aren't innocent. He blew up members of an organization that enslaved his people for almost a millennia. I don't think that is terrorism, especially when the objective is to emancipate mages from a reign of subjugation that has transpired for nearly a thousand years.

Well, then I don't think imprisoning mages is a crime.

[KainD]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Trying to do good? 
Seriously, you're being obnoxious here.

Are you saying that every Christain then supports everything wrong the Church did? Because it really, REALLY sounds liek you are saying jsut such thing.

Well then, I declare that any mages actions are representative of the actions of a Cricle and mages everywhere as a whole. Therefore Anders blowing up the chantry makes all mages guilty by default.
I also say other mages helped Anders (his denial proves nothing) and the increased blood magic activity is all part of a mages uprising - and even if it isn't it proves jsut how unstable and corrupted the Circle has become. There's no telling who could be possesed and who isn't.
Therefore annuling the Circle is the only right choice.

Every christian answers for what their church is doing yes, but you can always see what christians actually reading the bible. And then you could easily tell if someone is not a christian, and acts wrong according to their own standards. 

Now if there is a serious flaw within bible teachings as a whole, then you can easily say that every person that says that they are christian accepts that flaw as their own and support it.

Understand me here? 

And for the love of God. Anders is not GUILTY, he did nothing wrong. It's like saying that the warden is guilty of stopping a blight. 

There is already a war comming, nothing is stopping it. 

[andreiko i ny chto]

здесь русские или украинцы есть?

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

KainD wrote...

When you join an organization you except what it stands for no? If you are a part of the chantry then you agree with chantry politics and teachings. If so you are not innocent. If not, what are you doing among chantry ranks?

Trying to do good? 
Seriously, you're being obnoxious here.

Members of the Chantry aren't civilians, which is the entire point. It's an organization with its own military and ties to different political factions. The treatment of the mages in the Circles of Magi has also been outright condemned as slavery. The point comes down to the fact that the members of the Chantry aren't civilians.

What their goals are is up for debate, of course. I'm sure Anders was trying to do good by choosing a course of action that could lead to the emancipation of mages across Thedas.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Are you saying that every Christain then supports everything wrong the Church did? Because it really, REALLY sounds liek you are saying jsut such thing.

I don't think that the Chantry of Andraste can be equated with the modern day Christian Churches. It's disingenious of you to make such a claim.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Well then, I declare that any mages actions are representative of the actions of a Cricle and mages everywhere as a whole. Therefore Anders blowing up the chantry makes all mages guilty by default.

Mages are men and women with magical abilities; members of the Chantry are members of an organization. It's not quite the same thing.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I also say other mages helped Anders (his denial proves nothing) and the increased blood magic activity is all part of a mages uprising - and even if it isn't it proves jsut how unstable and corrupted the Circle has become. There's no telling who could be possesed and who isn't.
Therefore annuling the Circle is the only right choice.

I don't think genocide is the right course of action.